...I think it is more that people earning over 70k don't want to state it so exactly, whereas those earning 70k and under are used to stating it, even regarding it as required.

I wouldn't read too much into it...

The last time I worked in a bar - about a decade ago in Germany - was the hourly rate 7.50 EUR before tips. Less in the poorer parts of the country... No, not everyone makes a lot of cash here, and not everyone can go out drinking in posh bars every night... can anybody point me towards a country where this is different? I find the lower jobs are fairly well paid here compared to anywhere else in the world. I was an intern here before livin on less than 3000 a month and had no problem at all doing so. Definitely no need to whine around.

Arggh, I've just got what you're on about. We're talking the same thing

Note to self - do not attempt to comment on the EF while running a data recovery, full set of hardware diagnostics, and attempting a particularly tricky logic board extraction all at the same time. Should have learned that I don't multitask well years ago.

I was just backing up the comment about the waitress only making about CHF 3500 a month. And I am really happy that there is not such a massive divide in this country, that we are not yet at a stage where people have to have two jobs to make ends meets.

Well there's plenty that have to do it. Particularly outside of ZH. The median monthly salary is about CHF 5,800 per month (Swiss earn on average 15% more than foreigners). However, some 15% of the population (20% of foreigners) live in poverty - defined as less than 60% of the median income so would be the equivilent of just over CHF 41,000 pa (not strictly 1:1 as the definition is based on household income not salary).

"Foreigners" are mainly not users of EF!

It's got nothing to do with expats vs others. It's FINANCE vs others, just like it is in London. It's just that most expats work in finance. A typical Swiss grad who takes their first job in finance can expect min 100K salary, the main reason there are so few Swiss PhD students in science/engineering.

Of course if you're an expat with an expense package, then you can live like true royalty.

It should be noted that on the business side of finance, locals earn more than foreigners, but most of us are on the IT side due to language.

I once had a second job to make ends meet. It was in a hula hoop factory.

No offense here but:
Given the very accomodating school hours, most families only have one parent working. And in total contrast to some of the expat families who get their nice 120K salaries etc and some kind of child minding support/allowance, most swiss families can't actually afford to have the wife working because a. child care costs more than her expected wage b. as child care is not tax deductable they also get charged with higher taxes for the combined income.

So most of my friends only have one partner bringing in any real money which is often much lower than 120K and their wife's CAN't work either.

So where does that leave the swiss any better off?

PS I live VERY nicely way under 70K, but then I'm not greedy.

I would conclude that you weren't applying for an apartment, you were in fact part of a psychology experiement without you realizing.

This sort of questionaire is a test of Conformity similar to that practiced by Milgram and Asch (Milgrams electric shock experiement is the most well known one) in that people conform when under social pressure. When you filled in the forms were people standing over you ? Waiting for the form to be handed back ? did your wife say "look for gods sake just tick that one, they are waiting for us" ?

I am unable to find the reference of this experiment which is very annoying but the multiple choice Conformity test involved a number of people going into a room to undertake what was presented as a normal multiple choice exam. The questions were all loaded so as to be impossible to answer correctly, for example:

Q: How many people other than yourself has your wife slept with since you have been married ?

a) 1
b) 2
c)3
d) More than this.

Q) How many times do you wash a week ?

a) 3
b) 1
c) I do not wash.

Invariably, instead of not answering the question or writing on the paper, the subject would write what was closest to the answer, conforming to the pressure of the instruction to complete the test.

If anyone can find a reference to this experiement (I will have got some details wrong) that would be great as its very amusing - all the conformity experiements are really.

So to conclude: Everyone is on bunches more than 70k in switzerland and any suggestion otherwise isn't true, it is simply a surrputitious psychology test and you shoudnbe be drawn in.

Mike

I earn just under 50k and have my wife to support here as well. If I didn't have my student loans to pay off back in the UK I'd live quite nicely.

I know people who have done their PhDs here and have lived like students. After their PhDs they've managed to travel the world for about 6 months without going on unemployment , despite being entitled to it.

I'm living on about 22k chf a year. I'm not married and a student but "surviving" nicely though I'm not living in a major city which makes things a bit cheaper.

True it's not ideal but then student life rarely is. I still got almost 4 years to go so I better not start complaining

before or after tax?

In my opinion, expats generally have higher salaries but then there are also some expat expenses that can't be gotten around either. When comparing the average swiss to an expat it is not comparable in my view, like apples vs. oranges.

For example, in my little village, most of the swiss live in multigenerational homes/farms or they inherited it from their ancestors, ie. they don't pay rent nor a mortgage. Or they live in the same apt. for 30 years with still 1970s prices. They also don't have any childcare expenses nor schooling issues. The grandparents, aunts, cousins all help out to work around the school holidays, school hours, etc. They often work in close proximity, thus minimal commuting costs. Someone is always home to cook and clean, thus no eating out expenses nor paying for services. I also find bartering or non-monetary exchanges are used quite often in CH, ie. I will plow your driveway if you cut my hedge.

Thus, if most expats had such infrastrastructure, all could live on 50,000 chf or less. However, the reality is that most do not have such same infrastructure and available resources as many locals do.

you say this like it's a bad thing??!!!

One word: Freshmen. We get older, they stay the same age.







I'll let my self out thanx.

That's reallllly not very much though. I guess if you live in a studio costing 600CHF per month, you won't get much income tax on that salary at all, take 5-6% off for social contributions.

Rent -600
Food - 300
Health insurance - 100 (some student policy)
Phone - 50
bus - 50

You would still have some left over

It would probably be funnier if us British knew what a Freshman was without using wikipedia

Somebody who showers at least once a week?

Don't most well kept people shower at least once per week?

Before unfortunately, think it works out about 18k net though not sure.

Your fairly accurate.

Rent - 900 (got "stuck" with apartment after broke up with girlfriend, moving soon to a cheaper colocation)
Food - Probably a bit less than the 300 as not a big eater.
Health Insurance - 87 (800 euro a year with Irish insurer)
Phone/tv/internet - 90 ish a month
Bus - 57

Which leaves me with a little loose change for going out and things. Also make some tips from bar work and generally drink for free there

As I said not ideal but once I move I'll have a fair chuck of change from the saved rent etc

Not saying I'm living in the lap of luxury or anything but just wanted to point out that it is possible to live on 22k (as an unattached student at least) though I wouldn't want to do it for the rest of my life but thats what the studies are for

I get taxed 10% at source and 8.51% on social contributions which I figure in total is quite high, but that's coming from my experiences in Ireland where I wouldn't have paid any income tax on my small income levels.

Being locked out of a rental bracket because I might "make too much" ticks me off also. Why should someone else get to decide the % of my income devoted to putting a roof over my head?