Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 12.03.2011, 21:59
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 18,978
Groaned at 332 Times in 257 Posts
Thanked 11,715 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: When your prices kill your own market.

Quote:
View Post
not the same thing - different work culture, different approach overall. Like comparing Credit Suisse with the UBS, or Roche with Novartis...does not make sense
Wrong. Coop or rather as it used to be LVZ/KVZ under the guide of Mrs Uchtenhagen who then emigrated to Western Canada, was fairly conservative, but when Mr Loosli took over, equalled Migros and became a modern discounter. Migros at the other hand, exactly in those Uchtenhagen-Loosli-changeover years changed from a "social-capitalist" company to a far more middle-of-the-road company. They no longer expected idealism of their employees but paid wages usual in the business while Coop in order to reduce the total expenditure of salaries tried to reduce salaries. And this was quite many years ago.

Imagine that Migros in the mid-60ies was fully self-service while Coop and its LVZ/KVZ were fully served Tanta-Emma-shops !
Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 12.03.2011, 22:02
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: When your prices kill your own market.

Do you have some sort of salary comparison table W. between Migros and Coop. What about Aldi and Lidle- do they pay the same wages. They don't in the UK, but perhaps Unions here have had some influence?
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 12.03.2011, 22:04
Lakeside's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Kanton Schwyz
Posts: 395
Groaned at 8 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 335 Times in 178 Posts
Lakeside is considered knowledgeableLakeside is considered knowledgeableLakeside is considered knowledgeable
Re: When your prices kill your own market.

Quote:
View Post
you "understand" wrongly
it's about fairness across the board - I added an article from 20 minutes earlier that will shed some light

the Migros has been trying to catch up the past two years, and so are some of the foreign companies, but one has to look at the big picture as in total salary and benefits.

I recall reading a survey at that time where the Coop staff was a lot happier than other retail staff,

ultimately, shop where you feel like, you have the freedom to go to France, Germany or shop in Switzerland and in which shop

the bottom line is, we were talking about shopping in CH versus shopping in DE, FR etc. Basically, you live in Switzerland and you earn a Swiss salary - at least allow others that benefit as well by realising that in order for them to do so, you are simply going to have to pay a little more for what you buy.
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 12.03.2011, 22:09
Lakeside's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Kanton Schwyz
Posts: 395
Groaned at 8 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 335 Times in 178 Posts
Lakeside is considered knowledgeableLakeside is considered knowledgeableLakeside is considered knowledgeable
Re: When your prices kill your own market.

Quote:
View Post
Wrong. Coop or rather as it used to be LVZ/KVZ under the guide of Mrs Uchtenhagen who then emigrated to Western Canada, was fairly conservative, but when Mr Loosli took over, equalled Migros and became a modern discounter. Migros at the other hand, exactly in those Uchtenhagen-Loosli-changeover years changed from a "social-capitalist" company to a far more middle-of-the-road company. They no longer expected idealism of their employees but paid wages usual in the business while Coop in order to reduce the total expenditure of salaries tried to reduce salaries. And this was quite many years ago.

Imagine that Migros in the mid-60ies was fully self-service while Coop and its LVZ/KVZ were fully served Tanta-Emma-shops !
The history is indeed that the Migros became the shop "for the people", but this was a long time ago and my focus has been the past few years.
Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 12.03.2011, 22:09
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 18,978
Groaned at 332 Times in 257 Posts
Thanked 11,715 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: When your prices kill your own market.

Quote:
Do you have some sort of salary comparison table W. between Migros and Coop. What about Aldi and Lidle- do they pay the same wages. They don't in the UK, but perhaps Unions here have had some influence?
Unfortunately I do not. And it may be difficult. Known is that Aldi and Lidl here in Switzerland pay wages similar to those in Migros and Coop. Not out of generosity but out of the simple realisation that people in the business know each other and talk about wages and conditions. You of course can be sure that Migros/Coop/Aldi/Lidl employees in places like Weinfelden, Sargans, Langenthal/Aarwangen etc learn less than their mates in Zürich (incl outer suburbs) but of course only pay a fraction for their lodgings than their colleagues !
Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 12.03.2011, 22:10
Nil's Avatar
Nil Nil is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 10,356
Groaned at 428 Times in 333 Posts
Thanked 16,045 Times in 6,322 Posts
Nil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond repute
Re: When your prices kill your own market.

Quote:
View Post

ultimately, shop where you feel like, you have the freedom to go to France, Germany or shop in Switzerland and in which shop

the bottom line is, we were talking about shopping in CH versus shopping in DE, FR etc. Basically, you live in Switzerland and you earn a Swiss salary - at least allow others that benefit as well by realising that in order for them to do so, you are simply going to have to pay a little more for what you buy.
Really? What about the corner store owner who goes to Germany to buy his stock and sell them at the swiss price in Switzerland?

What about the garage who do the same job, have the same pieces but charge 4 times the price? It is great to have a swiss salary, but the swiss salary doesn't mean one can afford everything with it.
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 12.03.2011, 22:12
Lakeside's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Kanton Schwyz
Posts: 395
Groaned at 8 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 335 Times in 178 Posts
Lakeside is considered knowledgeableLakeside is considered knowledgeableLakeside is considered knowledgeable
Re: When your prices kill your own market.

Quote:
Do you have some sort of salary comparison table W. between Migros and Coop. What about Aldi and Lidle- do they pay the same wages. They don't in the UK, but perhaps Unions here have had some influence?
Aldi apparently started paying even more than either Migros or the Coop last year - according to some articles - but then they had longer days and it seems that overtime was not as well remunerated.

But I am only quoting what I have read or seen, so this information is only as good as my sources, i.e. the local press.
Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 12.03.2011, 22:14
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 18,978
Groaned at 332 Times in 257 Posts
Thanked 11,715 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: When your prices kill your own market.

Quote:
View Post
it's about fairness across the board - I added an article from 20 minutes earlier that will shed some light

the Migros has been trying to catch up the past two years, and so are some of the foreign companies, but one has to look at the big picture as in total salary and benefits.

I recall reading a survey at that time where the Coop staff was a lot happier than other retail staff,

ultimately, shop where you feel like, you have the freedom to go to France, Germany or shop in Switzerland and in which shop

the bottom line is, we were talking about shopping in CH versus shopping in DE, FR etc. Basically, you live in Switzerland and you earn a Swiss salary - at least allow others that benefit as well by realising that in order for them to do so, you are simply going to have to pay a little more for what you buy.
A) Compare prices in outlets of Aldi-CH and Lidl-CH with prices of Aldi-D and Lidl-D and you see the difference.
B) Realize that Aldi-D and Lidl-D are profitting from the size of their country and the giant market at play. AND most of all realize that your comparison in many ways simply is wrong. As you compare a rural outback of Germany with major centres in Switzerland. If you compare costs in Zurich with costs in Stuttgart and München things looks quite differently.
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 12.03.2011, 22:20
Lakeside's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Kanton Schwyz
Posts: 395
Groaned at 8 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 335 Times in 178 Posts
Lakeside is considered knowledgeableLakeside is considered knowledgeableLakeside is considered knowledgeable
Re: When your prices kill your own market.

Quote:
View Post
Really? What about the corner store owner who goes to Germany to buy his stock and sell them at the swiss price in Switzerland?

What about the garage who do the same job, have the same pieces but charge 4 times the price? It is great to have a swiss salary, but the swiss salary doesn't mean one can afford everything with it.
The first point is not always possible, but you are splitting hairs and talking about isolated incidences. I know this exists, but we are not obliged to shop there. I am, however, talking about the general situation in the whole of Switzerland.

On the second point, change the garage, . They do not all charge the same, even within Switzerland
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 12.03.2011, 22:30
Lakeside's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Kanton Schwyz
Posts: 395
Groaned at 8 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 335 Times in 178 Posts
Lakeside is considered knowledgeableLakeside is considered knowledgeableLakeside is considered knowledgeable
Re: When your prices kill your own market.

Quote:
View Post
A) Compare prices in outlets of Aldi-CH and Lidl-CH with prices of Aldi-D and Lidl-D and you see the difference.
B) Realize that Aldi-D and Lidl-D are profitting from the size of their country and the giant market at play. AND most of all realize that your comparison in many ways simply is wrong. As you compare a rural outback of Germany with major centres in Switzerland. If you compare costs in Zurich with costs in Stuttgart and München things looks quite differently.
I do not compare based on my personal experience as I shop almost exclusively in Switzerland. I am not, however, oblivious to what is presented in the news, the media etc. in both Germany and in Switzerland (or France for that matter) from time to time on these topics and I base my comments on that.

I also base it on what people tell me who have actually lived and earned in both countries (in the case of Germany and Switzerland).
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old 12.03.2011, 22:58
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 18,978
Groaned at 332 Times in 257 Posts
Thanked 11,715 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: When your prices kill your own market.

Quote:
View Post
I do not compare based on my personal experience as I shop almost exclusively in Switzerland. I am not, however, oblivious to what is presented in the news, the media etc. in both Germany and in Switzerland (or France for that matter) from time to time on these topics and I base my comments on that.

I also base it on what people tell me who have actually lived and earned in both countries (in the case of Germany and Switzerland).
I know people who have lived in both Germany and Switzerland. But in case of Germany you have to make a difference between the different locations. People tend to speak about Germany as a unit which it is not.

If you shop exclusively in Switzerland, you may find it hard to compare things with realities right accross the border. And if you base your "views" on reports, this for me is alright if we speak about Japan or Argentina but I find it hard to take such "arguments" at face-value if done in regard to the area where we are here.
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 12.03.2011, 23:05
Lejoker's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 576
Groaned at 20 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 285 Times in 181 Posts
Lejoker has no particular reputation at present
Re: When your prices kill your own market.

Yeah guys don't forget that just 3 years ago the CHF was trading at .60 EUR and today it is close to .80 EUR. When you get paid in chf in 2011, you have gained a .20 EUR for each chf you exchange. Consequently, your purchasing power across the border increased and made more sense. An example is a car that was priced 10k EUR in 2005 had to be bought using 16'500 whereas today it would cost just 12'500 chf...that is a diff. of 4'000 chf.

Will the chf purchasing power diminish? YES.
When? Nobody's gotta a freaking clue.
Is the chf and swiss salaries unrealistic? YES.
Are companies aware? YES.
Why do they not outsource everything and leave? No freaking idea. taxes?competitiveness? advantages? a dynamic market?
How long can this go on? not a clue.
will it end? YES.
__________________
ça m'est égal
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old 12.03.2011, 23:19
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 18,978
Groaned at 332 Times in 257 Posts
Thanked 11,715 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: When your prices kill your own market.

Quote:
View Post
The history is indeed that the Migros became the shop "for the people", but this was a long time ago and my focus has been the past few years.
Correct, in the times when Migros was regarded as "shop for the people" it was said to pay lesser wages than the smaller-scale competition which already then was clearly disputed by Mr Duttweiler.
Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old 12.03.2011, 23:24
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 18,978
Groaned at 332 Times in 257 Posts
Thanked 11,715 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: When your prices kill your own market.

Quote:
View Post
Yeah guys don't forget that just 3 years ago the CHF was trading at .60 EUR and today it is close to .80 EUR. When you get paid in chf in 2011, you have gained a .20 EUR for each chf you exchange. Consequently, your purchasing power across the border increased and made more sense. An example is a car that was priced 10k EUR in 2005 had to be bought using 16'500 whereas today it would cost just 12'500 chf...that is a diff. of 4'000 chf.

Will the chf purchasing power diminish? YES.
When? Nobody's gotta a freaking clue.
Is the chf and swiss salaries unrealistic? YES.
Are companies aware? YES.
Why do they not outsource everything and leave? No freaking idea. taxes?competitiveness? advantages? a dynamic market?
How long can this go on? not a clue.
will it end? YES.
The CHF of course is at present quite heavily overvalued and will come down back over time, but when exactly is difficult to determine. The US$ was overvalued for half a century but CH is NOT the USA !
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old 12.03.2011, 23:28
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: When your prices kill your own market.

I like the cleanliness and atmosphere at most Coops. I rarely wait in long lines, and everything is as it should be. In comparison, some of the stores in France can get so crowded and busy that nobody bothers to mop up the spill on the floor that everybody is stepping on and has gotten very sticky.

The only bummer with Coop and Migros for me is the diversity of products. I am accustomed to get a lot more variety. But that is typical of any kind of store in Switzerland.

The problem is scale. There just isn't enough customers in Switzerland to gain the flexibility that comes with scale. Coop and Migro have to make good on every product, while in other economies of scale, they can take risks on products that do not sell. So they will try out new products to see if their customers will buy it. When it doesn't, they drop the price and sell it as a loss leader.

That's what I rarely see here, selling loss leaders to drive customer traffic.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #116  
Old 12.03.2011, 23:34
Lejoker's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 576
Groaned at 20 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 285 Times in 181 Posts
Lejoker has no particular reputation at present
Re: When your prices kill your own market.

Quote:
View Post
I like the cleanliness and atmosphere at most Coops. I rarely wait in long lines, and everything is as it should be. In comparison, some of the stores in France can get so crowded and busy that nobody bothers to mop up the spill on the floor that everybody is stepping on and has gotten very sticky.
Sometimes -or at least always in my case- you are asked to leave your bags at the door so you don't shop lift...all this while a big muscular security guard -usually African- is staring you down waiting for you to ask permission to walk into the store...I feel like a criminal whenever I go to Mulhouse's carrefour.
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 12.03.2011, 23:35
Lejoker's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 576
Groaned at 20 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 285 Times in 181 Posts
Lejoker has no particular reputation at present
Re: When your prices kill your own market.

Quote:
View Post
The CHF of course is at present quite heavily overvalued and will come down back over time, but when exactly is difficult to determine. The US$ was overvalued for half a century but CH is NOT the USA !
I know most foreigners here convert chf -theoretically- to their home currency and draw their salary-comparisons upon that. YES, I couldn't have said any better than you did...the chf is heavily overvalued and will one day come back to its senses.
half a century? i doubt it...
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Lejoker for this useful post:
  #118  
Old 13.03.2011, 00:02
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Basel
Posts: 387
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 309 Times in 149 Posts
terramundi has an excellent reputationterramundi has an excellent reputationterramundi has an excellent reputationterramundi has an excellent reputation
Re: When your prices kill your own market.

I can absolutely see the arguments that you may wish to support Swiss agriculture and business by shopping locally and paying a higher price (because you have an relatively higher salary).

However, one thing I notice a here in the Basel region is that a lot of the people working in Co-op and Migros are actually French and in general frontaliers are paid less than their Swiss equivalents, although presumably more than they would be in France, hence working in CH is still attractive (I learn this from various folk involved in recruitment here).
So Coigros might well want their consumers to support Swiss industry and workers, and willingly pay a higher price, but they don't necessarily always do so themselves, at least in regions where it's fairly easy to draught in some cheaper foreigners.

Me? When I'm here I go to Germany, better prices, nicer service. I try to buy bio, which doesn't attract quite such a premium over the border - I don't believe that Swiss welfare standards are universally better - factory farms exist for sure in BL. Sure, if you see the chucks clucking in the yard or the piggies snuffling in their pens in your local farm, then fine and I buy fresh stuff from the farm. In the mountains I buy from the local shops, as, quite frankly, if some one's going to drag food all that way, then I'll give them my support.
For cheese, duck products and patisserie I go to France.

I do appreciate living in an area with so much choice.
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 13.03.2011, 00:49
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 18,978
Groaned at 332 Times in 257 Posts
Thanked 11,715 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: When your prices kill your own market.

Quote:
View Post
Sometimes -or at least always in my case- you are asked to leave your bags at the door so you don't shop lift...all this while a big muscular security guard -usually African- is staring you down waiting for you to ask permission to walk into the store...I feel like a criminal whenever I go to Mulhouse's carrefour.
A) Take a shopping cart and place your bags clearly separatly (what I do always)
B) Have your bags on one side and the shopping basket of the company on the other

but C) at the other hand tell the security guard that police will be called in by YOU if anything you deposit is missing after your return ! in case you are asked whether you think the guard is a criminal you are to reply that you do not suspect HIM but are aware that there are so many criminals around nowadays that even him has no chance ....
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old 13.03.2011, 00:57
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 18,978
Groaned at 332 Times in 257 Posts
Thanked 11,715 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: When your prices kill your own market.

Quote:
View Post
I know most foreigners here convert chf -theoretically- to their home currency and draw their salary-comparisons upon that. YES, I couldn't have said any better than you did...the chf is heavily overvalued and will one day come back to its senses.
half a century? i doubt it...
No, within a year or two. The steps taken by the Swiss National Bank to stop the speculators from driving the CHF up would NOT have quite some success had the SNB really worked against the "market". The Euro has weakened due to the monetary catatrophies in Iceland, Greece and Ireland, and the problems in Spain and Portugal, and would not have happened had the EU taken the necessary precautions. All this lead the speculators to move their money into the CHF. As soon as the Euro looks more stable, money will flow back. Exchange rates will not go back to levels of before of course, but become normal again they will
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How to kill a rat? Niranjan Other/general 80 21.03.2013 12:29
Market prices for Due Diligence of a Bank CSPman Business & entrepreneur 8 21.06.2010 10:36
To kill some time... TheWolverine General off-topic 1 28.05.2010 09:55
All this cheese is going to kill me.... Aquanexus Introductions 18 03.02.2010 08:10
How to kill a human. slammer International affairs/politics 47 31.12.2009 11:02


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 21:21.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0