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  #21  
Old 20.04.2011, 17:14
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

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Well apart from international schools and they don't count, all Swiss schools speak in one of the local languages not Urdu . It's not generalisation either my point is simply that the school example is a non integrated society. My firm belief is that the integration story is pure imagination in some wannabe politicos creative esprit, but who knows.
I agree. For me, if I feel integrated and comfortable, I have integrated myself. Don't care what anyone else thinks - how do they know how I feel?

I think it's just a posh word for "settled-in" anyway.

Integrated for me sounds like something has merged in with the background and has lost its own particular identity. Err… no thanks.
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  #22  
Old 20.04.2011, 17:15
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

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Actually, the schools you're talking about in the north are where the children don't have english as a first language. The schools are still run in English, not urdu.
Sorry I thought we were in the rant forum. I need to be more careful about my facts, although it reminds me of the famous story a while ago of a little English kid that was forced into another school further from home because he couldn't understand anything said in his local school
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  #23  
Old 20.04.2011, 17:19
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

A question for the OP. If you've been in Switzerland for the best prt of 10 years (although I'm not sure if that means 9yrs and 6 months or 6 years and 9 months, then why is your location showing as eu/USA ?
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  #24  
Old 20.04.2011, 17:26
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

Easiest way to integration is learning the local language and eventually the local dialect...
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Old 20.04.2011, 17:41
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

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May I be allowed to try to define this 'wonderful' word?

Integration:
The moral conundrum the SVP finds itself in whilst simultaneously instructing foreign people to both be Swiss, and get out of the country at the same time.
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Integration is not an SVP thing. It is a topic that goes through all parties except, maybe, the Greens, who want everything to be sustainable instead of integrated.

In a very small and very densely populated country with more than 20% foreigners and an extremely high attraction to even many more migrants, integration is a matter of survival. So please don't blame the SVP, not even with a wink.

Thankyou for defending the logic behind my humorous post

(I wasn't serious..... everyone takes a cheap shot at the SVP when they can - It's pure sport)
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Old 20.04.2011, 17:48
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

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Thankyou for defending the logic behind my humorous post

(I wasn't serious..... everyone takes a cheap shot at the SVP when they can - It's pure sport)
Could you please try to integrate a bit instead?
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Old 20.04.2011, 18:02
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

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A question for the OP. If you've been in Switzerland for the best prt of 10 years (although I'm not sure if that means 9yrs and 6 months or 6 years and 9 months, then why is your location showing as eu/USA ?
I think they call it a troll.
Please give me advise.

Or he must have misspent "I don't even live in Switzerland".
Have apartments in Swiss central heating system or electrical?

Last edited by miniMia; 20.04.2011 at 19:43.
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  #28  
Old 20.04.2011, 20:32
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

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http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_ne...l?cid=30029810

I have been in Switzerland for the best part of 10 years and have lived in Basel, Bern and Zug. I found Basel and Zug welcoming but have never integrated properly. I am a classic example of the "problem". I do agree many of us expats would like to make more contribution. Also of course it is partly our responsibility but I have lived in other developed countries and integrated much more easily. A friend of mine always said "Switzerland is like a five star hotel, you will feel comfortable but it will never be home". As I have not integrated over ten years, I am considering a return to my home country (an OECD country that competes with Switzerland for high quality of life cities!). Many expats come from developed countries where the lifestyle and economic opportunities are comparable to Switzerland so such options often make sense. Generally, I have a very high opinion of Switzerland. It is a great country and I love it so would be pleased to see more efforts made at integration. Longer term it is of advantage to Switzerland to attract and retain skilled people. It helps Switzerland continue to "punch above its weight" as it has always done. Good luck CH on these measures! It is a clear "win-win" for all concerned.
Meanwhile in Zug this week SVP says integrate or go home. I can understand the sentiment but a more accommodating attitude would be more helpful as this sounds somewhat hostile.
Generally though Zug is very welcoming.
Do you really bother what the SVP in Zug says ? For a full picture, you had to look at all major parties

You here can see the seats in the Canton of Zug parliament :

Christlichdemokratische Volkspartei (CVP), 23 Sitze Freisinnig-demokratisch Partei (FDP), 20 Sitze Schweizerische Volkspartei (SVP), 19 Sitze Alternative-die Grünen (ALG), 8 Sitze Sozialdemokratische Partei (SP), 8 Sitze Grünliberale Partei (GLP), 2 Sitze
and so, THE party in Zug you have to listen to is the CVP (Christian-Democrats), but the FDP (Liberals) still has one more seat. The Social-Democrats and the Greens with 8 seats each are rather weak in that conservative Canton
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Old 20.04.2011, 20:36
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Re: Your opinion?

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I do not speak fluent German or French ( I do speak fluent Italian but I am in the wrong part of the country) but I think I have integrated at least partially. I follow their rules, communicate in my poor German or French and when it is possible in Italian and people appreciate I do. I am taking German lessons but my level (B1) is very very very basic still. Language is important but also looking at the rules and following them, gawd I am boring...
What "level" you have may not be the point, but possibly rather how you USE your capabilities.
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Old 20.04.2011, 21:03
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Re: Your opinion?

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Until someone actually tells me what I'm supposed to do to become integrated...
That's the point: you are not supposed to do, you are supposed to be. How can one be? Now it's tricky: one is because others tell one that one is. It is a definition by external perception, as identity is not taken but given. Ironically, but on purpuse, demanding integration and denying it are one and the same thing. The more one asks immigrants to integrate, the more one says that they are not integrating. There is no possible definition of integration in CH as one citizen would always be not-integrated in another part of the country, not only because of language but that would be the first obstable for any Romand to integrate in Deutschschweiz. It all brings the question back to the unstated definition the Zürich-guild of SVP works with: a tribal vision of the canton identity. There is no entry door to a tribe. It is a genetical ethnical definition of citizenship, as opposed to a political definition. That latter is still the one on which a vast majority of people base their understanding of citizenship. That explains also the difference between Graubünden ex-SVP and Bernese SVP with the political definition on one side and the Zürcher and Glarus SVP with the tribe thinking on the other side. I even tipp that it explains why SVP is so weak in Basel and Jura, two very people-against-authority-based canton identities (the split into two half cantons for Basel and the split free from Bern for Jura).

Now you see why I fight for more rhethorics in German/French classes in this country... one needs it.
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Old 20.04.2011, 21:13
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

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A question for the OP. If you've been in Switzerland for the best prt of 10 years (although I'm not sure if that means 9yrs and 6 months or 6 years and 9 months, then why is your location showing as eu/USA ?
Maybe the question was impertinent? If you start a thread I think you owe a reply to all the related posts. Or maybe that's me being a bit too integrated ?
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  #32  
Old 20.04.2011, 22:08
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

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Found the Forum last week when looking for something else on the net. Before I made the discovery I was utterly content. I came to Switzerland... I settled down, marrying a Swiss chap, I picked up SG (Swiss German) the hard way, had daughters...had a two year spell in GB where I felt as much a foreigner as I ever do here. (came back to Switzerland)...my life was interesting and very satisfying. I seldom had contact with native English speakers in Switzerland at all. And now what has happened! (I found EF) The cloak of integration lies in tatters at my feet.
And that's what EF did to my successful integration.
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  #33  
Old 20.04.2011, 22:23
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

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And that's what EF did to my successful integration.

But what ? The Expat-EFfers are extremely assimilated/integrated. Proof ?
> They moan and groan about minor matters, just like the Swiss
> They have permanent issues about "service" and prices, j.l.t.S.
> They permanently want to get exactly what is not around, j.l.t.S.
> They are complaining about rules + regulations, j.l.t.S.
> They find the SVP a nuisance, j.l.70%of-t.S.

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Old 20.04.2011, 22:55
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

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But what ? The Expat-EFfers are extremely assimilated/integrated. Proof ?
> They moan and groan about minor matters, just like the Swiss
> They have permanent issues about "service" and prices, j.l.t.S.
> They permanently want to get exactly what is not around, j.l.t.S.
> They are complaining about rules + regulations, j.l.t.S.
> They find the SVP a nuisance, j.l.70%of-t.S.


HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Totaly right!

I think we should stop trying to integrate and start living. Maybe that would help on the long run...
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  #35  
Old 21.04.2011, 01:13
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

Simple question about the subject... how many of us (foreigners) belong to a political party in Switzerland?

How many of us know the name of our city major? How many can name more than one federal councillors or the current president? How many do charity?

etc... etc.. etc..

I know I can make an effort, I knew all those things in my home country and I wasn't even remotely interested in politics.

The same goes for the history of the country, literature and basically any other subject covered in primary school.

On the other hand, I know the language, I went to one of their schools for higher learning, work for a swiss company, pay taxes, try to buy local products, use the public transport, always say please and thank you, try to talk and be polite to elder people, don't cross the street on a red light, I am 3 minutes early for my appoints and basically follow the rules to the best of my knowledge.

Will I one day become 'Swiss'? Of course not! ... not even if I acquire the right to vote at a federal level and not even if I wanted (which I don't). How could I become Swiss? That's non-sense.

Even if I do and learn everything I mentioned before, would I be better integrated? would they even realize if I know the name of the first seven members of the council in 1848? Would that be even useful in cocktail parties? Why would I bother when the random person on the street is as clueless as I am?

I don't like the people that don't make the slightest effort when living in a different country. What's the point of moving if you want to behave exactly as you did back home? Wouldn't it be better if you went back home?

That said... what the frack do they want when they ask for better integration?
a higher intake of cheese and chocolates?
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Old 21.04.2011, 01:54
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

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Simple question about the subject... how many of us (foreigners) belong to a political party in Switzerland?

How many of us know the name of our city mayor? How many can name more than one federal councillors or the current president? How many do charity?

On the other hand, try to buy local products, use the public transport, always say please and thank you, try to talk and be polite to elder people, don't cross the street on a red light, I am 3 minutes early for my appoints and basically follow the rules to the best of my knowledge.

Will I one day become 'Swiss'? Of course not! ...

That said... what the frack do they want when they ask for better integration?
a higher intake of cheese and chocolates?
> All US Republicans are, even without knowing it, SVP members
> I just had to think hard until coming to the name Mauch
> Whomever knows more than 2 names of CH-Bundesräte is on CHaverage
> The "current president" is irrelevant as it is just one of the Bundesräte
> don't people do charity in your home country
> you should not "try to buy local products, but purchase local products when they look good
> in urban areas public transport is recommendable, but in rural areas, a nice car is nice
> to be polite and to say thanks/please etc is positive also elsewhere
> many people elsewhere are MORE polite to old people than the CHers
> will you one day become Swiss ? Why not ! Never say never
> better integration ? how good is your French ?
> no, a higher intake of chocolate makes you a citizen of Japan !
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  #37  
Old 21.04.2011, 02:19
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

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> All US Republicans are, even without > The "current president" is irrelevant as it is just one of the Bundesräte
Which usually means you have to know at least two .. the one coming from your region and that one.

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>
> will you one day become Swiss ? Why not ! Never say never
That's the thing... I was implying that having a red passport doesn't make you Swiss...

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>
> better integration ? how good is your French ?
I cringe when I see (french-speaking) youngsters writing on forums. That's knowing that my spelling sucks.

...

But to the point: What is integration?

Little Google found something official:

http://www.admin.ch/ch/f/rs/1/142.205.fr.pdf

Quote:
Chapitre 2 Contribution et devoirs des étrangers
Art. 4 Contribution des étrangers à l’intégration
(art. 4 LEtr)
La contribution des étrangers à l’intégration se manifeste notamment par:
a. le respect de l’ordre juridique et des valeurs de la Constitution fédérale;
b. l’apprentissage de la langue nationale parlée sur le lieu de domicile;
c. la connaissance du mode de vie suisse;
d. la volonté de participer à la vie économique et d’acquérir une formation.
a. do not be a criminal
b. learn the language
c. know the swiss lifestyle
d. get a job, you bum

I love point c, back to square one.

If you don't live the (swiss) life they can come after you:

Quote:
Art. 3 Prise en considération de l’intégration lors de décisions
(art. 54, al. 2, et 34, al. 4, LEtr)
Dans l’exercice de leur pouvoir d’appréciation, les autorités tiennent compte du
degré d’intégration de l’étranger, en particulier lorsqu’il s’agit d’octroyer une autorisation d’établissement anticipée au sens de l’art. 62 de l’ordonnance du 24 octobre
2007 relative à l’admission, au séjour et à l’exercice d’une activité lucrative
(OASA)3
-Pour les familles, il y a lieu de prendre en considération le degré d’inté .
gration des membres de la famille.

This one is interesting:

Quote:
Art. 18 Forfait d’intégration
(art. 87 LEtr et art. 88 LAsi)
1
La Confédération verse aux cantons, trimestriellement, un forfait d’intégration
unique de 6000 francs par réfugié reconnu et par personne admise à titre provisoire.
Affecté à un projet précis, ce forfait sert notamment à encourager l’intégration
professionnelle et l’acquisition d’une langue officielle.
The federal government pays 6000CHF (quarterly) to the local authority per refugee.

Who is joining the SVP now?


Let's all call our friend lawyers and request that 6k "Forfait d’intégration" too... nothing like a few weekends in Zermatt and Gstaad to speed up our integration
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  #38  
Old 21.04.2011, 07:30
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

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Simple question about the subject... how many of us (foreigners) belong to a political party in Switzerland?

How many of us know the name of our city major? How many can name more than one federal councillors or the current president? How many do charity?

etc... etc.. etc..

I know I can make an effort, I knew all those things in my home country and I wasn't even remotely interested in politics.

The same goes for the history of the country, literature and basically any other subject covered in primary school.

On the other hand, I know the language, I went to one of their schools for higher learning, work for a swiss company, pay taxes, try to buy local products, use the public transport, always say please and thank you, try to talk and be polite to elder people, don't cross the street on a red light, I am 3 minutes early for my appoints and basically follow the rules to the best of my knowledge.

Will I one day become 'Swiss'? Of course not! ... not even if I acquire the right to vote at a federal level and not even if I wanted (which I don't). How could I become Swiss? That's non-sense.

Even if I do and learn everything I mentioned before, would I be better integrated? would they even realize if I know the name of the first seven members of the council in 1848? Would that be even useful in cocktail parties? Why would I bother when the random person on the street is as clueless as I am?

I don't like the people that don't make the slightest effort when living in a different country. What's the point of moving if you want to behave exactly as you did back home? Wouldn't it be better if you went back home?

That said... what the frack do they want when they ask for better integration? a higher intake of cheese and chocolates?
I think you are confusing "integration" with "being Swiss". If you think the above is what makes you integrated then most of my Swiss friends and family are foreigners in their own land.
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  #39  
Old 21.04.2011, 07:52
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Re: Your opinion?

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It is not about me. It was the comment for the article. There is the link to the full article in my first post.
I found this opinion interesting because sometimes Americans find European as cold and not friendly. In my opinion it is much more difficult to integrate to Swiss or German culture and find new friends, but if you have been accepted you have friends forever. In the US for example it is very easy to find new friends, but it is very easy to lose them as well.
So...wait....my options are:
a) Americans and Euros are shallow and drop good friends or don't make 'real' friends and the Swiss are equally difficult or
b) the problem is actually you and not everyone else
Hmmm.....
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Old 21.04.2011, 09:05
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

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Which usually means you have to know at least two .. the one coming from your region and that one.



That's the thing... I was implying that having a red passport doesn't make you Swiss...


As soon as you are a citizen of your Canton, you ARE "Swiss". Look at the family of Mr Blocher. The immigrated less than a century ago from Germany, lived in the Canton of Schaffhausen, became Schaffhausen-citizens and so became "Swiss". You can then for example join the Social Democrats or the Greens or the Green-Liberals, AND join the local "Kegel-Club" !
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