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  #81  
Old 02.05.2011, 21:33
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

Ah, but if you commit a crime, the 20min will say the culprit was a Swiss of ... origin. The point being, it really doesn't matter how well you learn the local language, how many Fasnacht cliques you join, whether or not you get a red passport; you will always be an outsider and treated as one.

Even if they do not represent a majority of Swiss, the constant drip-drip from the SVP and their buddies has an effect in the end.

Cheers,
Nick

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As soon as you are a citizen of your Canton, you ARE "Swiss". Look at the family of Mr Blocher. The immigrated less than a century ago from Germany, lived in the Canton of Schaffhausen, became Schaffhausen-citizens and so became "Swiss". You can then for example join the Social Democrats or the Greens or the Green-Liberals, AND join the local "Kegel-Club" !
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  #82  
Old 02.05.2011, 21:52
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

A shame you feel that way. Not our experience here at all. OH got his Swiss nationality recently and has won the respect of all. Of course he will always be 'British too' - just like me in UK was totally accepted, but 'Swiss too'.
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Old 02.05.2011, 22:08
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

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Ah, but if you commit a crime, the 20min will say the culprit was a Swiss of ... origin. The point being, it really doesn't matter how well you learn the local language, how many Fasnacht cliques you join, whether or not you get a red passport; you will always be an outsider and treated as one.

Even if they do not represent a majority of Swiss, the constant drip-drip from the SVP and their buddies has an effect in the end.

Cheers,
Nick
Have you noticed that criminals are reported with "stammt aus" and celebs like Celine Dion and Renee Zellweger have "Schweizer Wurzeln". The first always sounds negative and sinister whilst the "Swiss roots" sounds somehow romantic and much more positive.
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  #84  
Old 02.05.2011, 22:18
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

Hi Odile,

I have to qualify that with, I don't take things badly - I like it here for many reasons. However after re-reading Ticking Along with The Swiss after 10 years of being in CH a few of the comments in there did hit home.

In a couple of years we would be able to apply for a red passport and I really haven't decided one way or the other - and I have no problems with the languages or knowing the political system etc etc.

My sentiment at the moment is I pay my way, I try to fit in and do Swiss stuff like Fasnacht, however I'm not going to feel bad about socialising with expats and seeking out other English speakers.

Many expats (not me) come here and try to throw themselves in 100% to the Swiss side and end up getting depressed when they find that the "Star Bellied Sneetches" will never fully accept them. The secret is learning to live with that.

Cheers,
Nick
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  #85  
Old 02.05.2011, 22:21
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

Absolutely- same for me when I lived in UK at first. One does not exclude the other. Bonne chance. Perhaps it is much easier in Suisse Romande and in urban areas to be accepted.

I've lived in several locations in the UK for near on 40 years, married to a Brit, got British kids and grand-kids, speak the language fairly well, got a British Hons Degree from a British Uni, held several senior jobs in British schools, got British passport, driving licence, had to swear my allegiance to Our Queen to get British nationality, still have a flat in UK and go there every couple of months, know British history, geography and culture better than my own - and yet I was clearly told HERE on EF, that I am not British. There you go. LOL. No way that is going to get me depressed - in fact I (and OH) find the irony hilarious.

Last edited by Odile; 02.05.2011 at 22:34.
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  #86  
Old 02.05.2011, 22:26
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

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Hi Wolli,

But these are all a bit different from your mate ringing the doorbell and asking if you fancy nipping out for a swift pint.

Cheers,
Nick
True, but what matters is whether spontaneous moves are up or not. What I miss in case of those year.-end-meetings is exactly this. In case of those class reunions the point also was (hopefully will be) that complete strangers were included and "integrated". In case of my sister-in-law, just to give an idea, the fiancée of her daughter (blocked from attending for the time being) was and is allowed to bring a female colleague of him with him, and you never know who else is to join.
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  #87  
Old 02.05.2011, 22:34
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

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Ah, but if you commit a crime, the 20min will say the culprit was a Swiss of ... origin. The point being, it really doesn't matter how well you learn the local language, how many Fasnacht cliques you join, whether or not you get a red passport; you will always be an outsider and treated as one.

Even if they do not represent a majority of Swiss, the constant drip-drip from the SVP and their buddies has an effect in the end.

Cheers,
Nick
The mentioning of the "origin" was NOT started by the SVP but quite to the contrary by liberal people of the press to show how often the culprits are "Swiss of Swiss origin". Somebody got stabbed ? in the old days, people assumed that the culprit was a "Med", but now you fairly often can read "Swiss of Bernese origin".

And it of course can also be positive "the Swiss of .... origin" rescued ....

In the extreme it can be just as when French President Chirac was saved from an attack, thanks to a "French of Algerian origin". That the one in case of the matter in the BSL control tower was the same origin is unfortunate, but what can you do ....
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  #88  
Old 02.05.2011, 23:01
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

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...Even if they do not represent a majority of Swiss, the constant drip-drip from the SVP and their buddies has an effect in the end...
Yes the last few years you could "feel" the change (no I am not living the plastic bubble of Zürich, it does NOT count), it's actually quite "scary" ...e.g. some locals do not greet us anymore...(yeah I know - huge deal)

SVP wants us to "integrate" but they made it difficult by labeling all foreigners as scum, criminals, and people who is taking their jobs and driving up the prices...it's a "no-win"-"no-win" situation for us...

ironically it's the swiss themselves which are to blame, they created this situation, not the foreigners...how could we?...So, "selber schuld"...
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  #89  
Old 02.05.2011, 23:09
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

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Yes the last few years you could "feel" the change (no I am not living the plastic bubble of Zürich, it does NOT count), it's actually quite "scary" ...e.g. some locals do not greet us anymore...(yeah I know - huge deal)

SVP wants us to "integrate" but they made it difficult by labeling all foreigners as scum, criminals, and people who is taking their jobs and driving up the prices...it's a "no-win"-"no-win" situation for us...

ironically it's the swiss themselves which are to blame, they created this situation, not the foreigners...how could we?...So, "selber schuld"...
But what is that strange obsession you have ? What the SVP wants is just what a single party wants . And what "situation" are you actually talking about ?


And, what do you mean by "plastic bubble of Zurich" ? and why do these locals not greet you anymore ?
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Old 02.05.2011, 23:12
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

The SVP are not 'The Swiss' - please.
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Old 02.05.2011, 23:48
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

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But what is that strange obsession you have ? What the SVP wants is just what a single party wants . And what "situation" are you actually talking about ?


And, what do you mean by "plastic bubble of Zurich" ? and why do these locals not greet you anymore ?
"what a single part wants"? now FDP and probably the others have seen that the foreign hating concept is working so they will jump on the bandwagon, no doubt.

"Situation", SVP are crying about that there are too many foreigners, but instead of "blaming" the sources (government, the companies, themselves ETC) they are trying to (and succeed) put the blame on the foreigners...

nobody forced this country to accept all the foreigners, so they have created this "situation" themselves, So selber schuld,...more clear now?

Zürich is a plastic bubble (together with Geneva and Basel) because you will not come close to the "real Swissness"...on the countryside on the other hand...

I have not asked why some locals have not greeted us anymore, probably due to 4-5 years of foreign hating initiatives and all those nice SVP posters...
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Old 02.05.2011, 23:59
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

Do YOU still greet THEM? Beat them at their own game
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  #93  
Old 03.05.2011, 00:11
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

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Do YOU still greet THEM? Beat them at their own game
of course...I'm not Swiss...
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Old 03.05.2011, 00:13
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

Invite them for a drink or a barbie, and talk about it- ask them straight.
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Old 03.05.2011, 00:18
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

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Invite them for a drink or a barbie, and talk about it- ask them straight.
I do that for the few friendly locals
AND
I don't encourage rude and immature behavior...
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  #96  
Old 03.05.2011, 01:14
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

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and yet I was clearly told HERE on EF
So it must be true.
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Old 03.05.2011, 01:29
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

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"what a single part wants"? now FDP and probably the others have seen that the foreign hating concept is working so they will jump on the bandwagon, no doubt.

"Situation", SVP are crying about that there are too many foreigners, but instead of "blaming" the sources (government, the companies, themselves ETC) they are trying to (and succeed) put the blame on the foreigners...

nobody forced this country to accept all the foreigners, so they have created this "situation" themselves, So selber schuld,...more clear now?

Zürich is a plastic bubble (together with Geneva and Basel) because you will not come close to the "real Swissness"...on the countryside on the other hand...

I have not asked why some locals have not greeted us anymore, probably due to 4-5 years of foreign hating initiatives and all those nice SVP posters...
* the "foreigners hating concept" is neither new nor invented by the SVP
* the argument about "Ueberfremdung" originates from about 1960
* the "situation" is 50 years old and not new either
* the Canton of Zurich is more than 15% of CH, and so is far more "Swiss" than Aargau ! Zurich and Basel and Geneva together make up more than a third of CH, and so are a heavy part of Switzerland
* Ever considered NON-political reasons for those particular locals not greeting you anymore ?
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  #98  
Old 03.05.2011, 08:07
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

I'm not trying to 'integrate'.

Firstly because that takes a long time. And secondly because I think that means giving up too much of yourself and doing what you think society demands of you.

I like to think of it as other people 'integrating' back in Australia. We don't spend all our free time drinking Fosters around the BBQ cooking prawns and saying 'Gday mate'. Well maybe the beer and the BBQ part is right.

You can't please all the people all the time. Not even Jesus Christ himself could do that.

I am just trying to enjoy life and that includes getting along with the neighbours, having tea with the parents of my childrens friends, and even learning German (yes I enjoy learning) and then subjecting some poor unsuspecting sales person to it (the looks on their faces - priceless).

Be happy and people will be drawn to you.

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Old 03.05.2011, 19:43
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

Yeah, they're just grumpy buggers

Cheers,
Nick

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* Ever considered NON-political reasons for those particular locals not greeting you anymore ?
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Old 03.05.2011, 20:01
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Re: Breaking down integration barriers: your opinion?

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So it must be true.
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