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Old 23.05.2011, 14:14
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If you are doctor all the high impact worthwhile journals (NEJM, Science, Nature, lancet) are in English. I can't for the life of me imagine someone doing some ground breaking research worthy of a high impact publication and thinking

'hmmmmmm, I think I will publish in some obscure German publication to apease our Swiss German overlords...despite them not knowing proper German....yes yes Jorgi....we shall do that'
You can have ALL the information you find in those journals mentioned also in German-language and French-language journals. Be it stuff translated from English-language or resarch conducted by institutes in France, Germany, Switzerland and Austria. The other way round, you can be quite sure that the journals you mentioned contain a lot of stuff translated from German, French, Italian etc.

German-language publications are NOT "obscure", neither are French-language publications. That your "Swiss German Overlords" do not know "Proper German" may well be, but is rather off-topic, as they of course can READ what matters.

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Well, my point really is...taking into account the pisa stuy..along with the newspaper article...and the sheer amount of expats in Switzerland...that the public education system in Switzerland is truly lacking.
You may have noted the remark of Olygirl. I nevertheless insist on the WHY and in WHAT WAY ! And the answer primarily is the methods which are outdated in many places. And outdated teachers. I well remember the moment when French and English in Zurich already got started in Primary School and some teachers protested "Oh this means we have to improve our French and English" So that it is NOT the system really, but some practical points.

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the French of course always look like this !


French as such is NOT on its arse really; what however is bankrupt is the French claim to have THE world-language. As soon as they reduce their "demand" and accept French to be a fairly important European language, with some areas of Africa also using it, they will be splendidly off

Last edited by MusicChick; 26.05.2011 at 07:32. Reason: Merged consecutive posts. Learn to multiquote, please.
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  #82  
Old 23.05.2011, 14:25
porsch1909
 
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Re: Leaving the Swiss schooling system and unable to speak much English...

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You can have ALL the information you find in those journals mentioned also in German-language and French-language journals. Be it stuff translated from English-language or resarch conducted by institutes in France, Germany, Switzerland and Austria. The other way round, you can be quite sure that the journals you mentioned contain a lot of stuff translated from German, French, Italian etc.

German-language publications are NOT "obscure", neither are French-language publications. That your "Swiss German Overlords" do not know "Proper German" may well be, but is rather off-topic, as they of course can READ what matters.
So you are saying that institutes that publish in Nature and the research is conducted in France, Germany, Switzerland and Austria also translate it into another language and publish in another foreign language journal? Can't say I've ever seen someone do that around here

Or are you saying that the doctors and scientists should read summaries translated into the local language by some intern that's good with languages and shouldn't be able to have full access to the majority of publications and should only read what said intern's editor decides is a highlight so is worthy of being translated?

But seriously if there are German or French versions of any of the journals that I've mentioned then I'd be happy to be proved wrong.

If a doctor or a scientist doesn't have a good grasp of English, they are SEVERELY limiting their access to the vast majority of research publications.

In my few years in research I've found some Russian and some chinese publications. Never a German or a French one. You make some outlandish claims wolli, but to say that a doctor or scientist not knowing English is at no disadvantage in keeping up with the latest technologies etc. takes the biscuit


Edit: Saying that, I've not met a scientist that doesn't have a good understanding of English (excluding technicians of course).
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  #83  
Old 23.05.2011, 14:29
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Re: Leaving the Swiss schooling system and unable to speak much English...

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You may have noted the remark of Olygirl. I nevertheless insist on the WHY and in WHAT WAY ! And the answer primarily is the methods which are outdated in many places. And outdated teachers. I well remember the moment when French and English in Zurich already got started in Primary School and some teachers protested "Oh this means we have to improve our French and English" So that it is NOT the system really, but some practical points.
It is very well the system..what else would it be?! There is a total lack of student developement along with rather old and clunky infrastructure which leaves a lot to be desired. The school system in Switzerland is actually a prime example on how the country is run...it's completely ignorant to understand that it's destined to fail. The old ways were once up to standard probably 40 years ago....however since then, little has been done to improve or change anything.
As a matter of fact, I have a prime example for ya...a personal aquaintance is a teacher at a "Bezirksschule" (upper level highschool)...he didn't even know that Jamaica was a country..he thought that it was a part of the US.
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  #84  
Old 23.05.2011, 14:30
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Re: Leaving the Swiss schooling system and unable to speak much English...

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It is very well the system..what else would it be?! There is a total lack of student developement along with rather old and clunky infrastructure which leaves a lot to be desired. The school system in Switzerland is actually a prime example on how the country is run...it's completely ignorant to understand that it's destined to fail. The old ways were once up to standard probably 40 years ago....however since then, little has been done to improve or chage anything.
As a matter of fact, I have a prime example for ya...a personal aquaintance is a teacher at a "Bezirksschule" (upper level highschool)...he didn't even know that Jamaica was a country..he thought that it was a part of the US.
Wait what....you mean it's not?
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  #85  
Old 23.05.2011, 14:34
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Re: Leaving the Swiss schooling system and unable to speak much English...

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he didn't even know that Jamaica was a country..he thought that it was a part of the US.
And I'll bet that most Americans don't know that Puerto Rico IS part of the US!

I'll tell you, my nephew (from Vermont) was shocked when we went for an overnight motorcycle ride into Italy, and everything was in German!

Tom
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  #86  
Old 23.05.2011, 14:40
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Re: Leaving the Swiss schooling system and unable to speak much English...

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And I'll bet that most Americans don't know that Puerto Rico IS part of the US!

I'll tell you, my nephew (from Vermont) was shocked when we went for an overnight motorcycle ride into Italy, and everything was in German!

Tom
What does that have to do with anything?! We're talking about a highschool teacher who teaches various subjects and is expected to have some sort of basic knowledge.
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  #87  
Old 23.05.2011, 14:47
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Re: Leaving the Swiss schooling system and unable to speak much English...

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What does that have to do with anything?! We're talking about a highschool teacher who teaches various subjects and is expected to have some sort of basic knowledge.
So ask an American High School teacher where San Marino is, I'll bet they have no clue!

Tom
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  #88  
Old 23.05.2011, 14:52
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Re: Leaving the Swiss schooling system and unable to speak much English...

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So ask an American High School teacher where San Marino is, I'll bet they have no clue!

Tom
...you make a lot of sense, I'll just take your word for it.
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Old 23.05.2011, 15:13
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Re: Leaving the Swiss schooling system and unable to speak much English...

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Well, my point really is...taking into account the pisa stuy..along with the newspaper article...and the sheer amount of expats in Switzerland...that the public education system in Switzerland is truly lacking.
Actually, Switzerland performed quite well at Pisa study last time round, much better than the UK.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/PISA-Studien
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  #90  
Old 23.05.2011, 15:21
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Re: Leaving the Swiss schooling system and unable to speak much English...

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Actually, Switzerland performed quite well at Pisa study last time round, much better than the UK.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/PISA-Studien
15th place in science...14th place in reading abilities..8th place in math....hardly "quite well" IMO.
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  #91  
Old 23.05.2011, 15:32
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Re: Leaving the Swiss schooling system and unable to speak much English...

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And I'll bet that most Americans don't know that Puerto Rico IS part of the US!

I'll tell you, my nephew (from Vermont) was shocked when we went for an overnight motorcycle ride into Italy, and everything was in German!

Tom
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Old 23.05.2011, 15:53
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Re: Leaving the Swiss schooling system and unable to speak much English...



  1. We don't have native speakers to teach us non-native speakers English.
  2. A lot of people in this area would disagree that English is more important then German/French. Where is the biggest business connection? To England or to Germany/France?
  3. Languages are not everyone's strongest side, yet we are forced to learn 4-5 languages.
So that I speak for my self, I was very insecure with my English before I moved here, simply because I didn't use it on daily basis. And although it has improved a lot, I still make loads of grammar/spelling mistakes, and am very often confused with the meanings, especially since I have mixed friends of Americans and her-highness-English who speak totally different English.
But hey, since they so often don't even understand each other - why do I have to feel bad about my English?

YOU are the guest in this country, why don't YOU make the effort to learn the local language? Don't accuse others for being lazy if you are being lazy too.
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  #93  
Old 23.05.2011, 15:56
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Re: Leaving the Swiss schooling system and unable to speak much English...

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  1. We don't have native speakers to teach us non-native speakers English.
  2. A lot of people in this area would disagree that English is more important then German/French. Where is the biggest business connection? To England or to Germany/France?
  3. Languages are not everyone's strongest side, yet we are forced to learn 4-5 languages..
  1. ..who is we?
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YOU are the guest in this country, why don't YOU make the effort to learn the local language? Don't accuse others for being lazy if you are being lazy too.
...but, but I do speak 3 national languages... what does this have to do with me?
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Old 23.05.2011, 15:58
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Re: Leaving the Swiss schooling system and unable to speak much English...

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..who is we?
I say we because I am one of many non-native English speakers and think this apply to me as well.
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  #95  
Old 23.05.2011, 16:00
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Re: Leaving the Swiss schooling system and unable to speak much English...

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I say we because I am one of many non-native English speakers and think this apply to me as well.
Ah, ok..but why did you get angry?
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  #96  
Old 23.05.2011, 16:03
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Re: Leaving the Swiss schooling system and unable to speak much English...

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So you are saying that institutes that publish in Nature and the research is conducted in France, Germany, Switzerland and Austria also translate it into another language and publish in another foreign language journal? Can't say I've ever seen someone do that around here
All contributions in languages like German, French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and Japanese are routinely and in full translated into other languages including English. Look through the magazines you mentioned in a more careful and less shoddy way and will detect lots of articles originally written in another language


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Or are you saying that the doctors and scientists should read summaries translated into the local language by some intern that's good with languages and shouldn't be able to have full access to the majority of publications
-
Look into any bookshop here. 100'000s of books published in other languages are translated into German each year. Look up journals of any kind and you will see articles translated from other languages all the time

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should only read what said intern's editor decides is a highlight so is worthy of being translated?
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No, it is not some "intern's editor" who decides about this, but ALL the stuff gets translated.

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But seriously if there are German or French versions of any of the journals that I've mentioned then I'd be happy to be proved wrong.
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They are NOT "German or French ""versions"" but German and French journals, taking over articles from other languages
[/QUOTE]

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If a doctor or a scientist doesn't have a good grasp of English, they are SEVERELY limiting their access to the vast majority of research publications.
-
--- see below

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In my few years in research I've found some Russian and some chinese publications. Never a German or a French one. You make some outlandish claims wolli, but to say that a doctor or scientist not knowing English is at no disadvantage in keeping up with the latest technologies etc. takes the biscuit
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I did not say that a doctor not fluent in other languages is not at a disadvantage ---- see below

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Edit: Saying that, I've not met a scientist that doesn't have a good understanding of English (excluding technicians of course).
-
but did you meet lots of doctors here without proper knowledge in some other languages ?


**** Doctors need a good grasp of some major languages not just for DIRECT access to foreign literature, but also in order to be able to participate in international medical meetings. So, a CH/D doctor usually speaks French, English and Italian.
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  #97  
Old 23.05.2011, 16:11
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Re: Leaving the Swiss schooling system and unable to speak much English...

Global standardisation.
Economics require a single language.
What else other than English could you back* ,confidently speaking ?

* Mandarin excluded.


English speakers of the world untie !
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Old 23.05.2011, 16:14
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Re: Leaving the Swiss schooling system and unable to speak much English...

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Global standardisation.
Economics require a single language.
What else other than English could you back* ,confidently speaking ?

* Mandarin excluded.


English speakers of the world untie !
Spanish...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish...#Hispanosphere

Odd note: 1.7% of CH population is a native speaker WTF????
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  #99  
Old 23.05.2011, 16:15
porsch1909
 
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Re: Leaving the Swiss schooling system and unable to speak much English...

I phoned ten GPs in Neuchatel and none of them spoke English or were willing to take me on as a patient since I wanted the consultation to take place in English. When my wife had an accident, the specialist burns nurse didn't speak English either.

People in general don't read the journal magazines anymore, rather they look at the website. I've looked at the Nature and Science website and can't see a link to a German or French version (or any other language for that matter)

If you could actually provide me with a link or somewhere which says that all the articles are translated into foreign languages then I would be more than happy to have been proved wrong.

It's even the norm for PhD thesis to be submitted in English in Switzerland and Germany to accommodate any international referees and to ensure that someone might actually care about the thesis afterwards.
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Old 23.05.2011, 16:17
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Re: Leaving the Swiss schooling system and unable to speak much English...


...and watch the world take a 3 hour long business lunch ?

Actually, not a bad suggestion.
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