Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 09.06.2011, 12:51
Carlos R's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Roundn'about Basel
Posts: 7,232
Groaned at 105 Times in 95 Posts
Thanked 9,934 Times in 4,178 Posts
Carlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Feeling a little justified...?

Quote:
View Post
No, YOU have not got it. The last few years for Switzerland is a picnic compared to what is potentially to come.

You will see soon enough when Greece defaults/re-structures (Switzerland is massively exposed to Greek debt). The tremors from the coming collapse in China will be felt throughout the world.
Hang on a mo. You are talking about what is to come. You don't really know how badly the Eurozone will be affected if/when Greece defaults.

You can only compare what has happened... For all you know if Greece goes belly up, comparatively speaking, CH could still be better off than the rest of the Europe.

Although I do agree that CH has been relatively stable compared to its other European neighbours, despite Wolli's claims to the contrary.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Carlos R for this useful post:
  #62  
Old 09.06.2011, 12:59
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 18,978
Groaned at 332 Times in 257 Posts
Thanked 11,715 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Feeling a little justified...?

Quote:
View Post
The Swiss economy is bound to stagnate as forced aggregate demand cannot sustain actual growth in the long run. In addition, having great dependency on a highly skilled and underskilled foreign workforce whilst displaying an antagonistic attitude towards the very same foreigner is certainly a path to self-destruction.
"bound to" ? If you look at the figures of the past 10 years realistically, you see that there in reality WAS a stagnation in most years. If you compare the economies of Switzerland and Austria you can see that the once far weaker Austria within 20 years has moved up to the same level.

The "antagonistic attitude" has been around since the 1950ies. Do not forget that more than 35% (or was it 40% ?) voted in favour of the Schwarzenbach Initiative which foresaw the forced deportation of some 50% of the foreign workforce. Such radicalism is not even the line of Ayatollah Blocher. Generally spoken, the acceptance of immigrants in CH over the past 50 years has IMPROVED, and the antagonism declined. You may point to some votes, but all votes of REAL importance have gone against the SVP, while the SVP won against ex-Yugo-Muslims and against foreign criminals.

What however many Swiss fail to realize is that CH in the longer term simply will be on an equal level with Austria, Bavaria, Baden-Württemberg, Alsace, Savoie, Piemonte, Lombardia. There is NOT real reason why this should be different. It WAS different for some decades since WWII as exactly these regions suffered from the longterm-consequences of the war. So that it is not a catastrophe but a "back to normal". Therefore, if you use the S-Bahn in Zürich, the "German" drivers are NOT from B-W, but from Saxonia and Sachsen-Anhalt
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 09.06.2011, 13:13
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 14,747
Groaned at 284 Times in 189 Posts
Thanked 18,639 Times in 7,827 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Feeling a little justified...?

Quote:
View Post
Hang on a mo. You are talking about what is to come. You don't really know how badly the Eurozone will be affected if/when Greece defaults.
I can also talk about what is current. Does anyone (apart from wolli) seriously think Switzerland has had it hard the past few years?
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
  #64  
Old 09.06.2011, 13:18
Nev
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Feeling a little justified...?

Quote:
View Post
Hedge funds aren't/weren't the problem. Derivatives and the lack of regulation thereof is.
Along with bankers, a popular scapegoat granted, among people who think they know. But that's not what fed the financial crisis.
In no particular order:
1. Credit bubble with weak regulation - government and regulators to blame
2. Housing bubble - government to blame
3. Citizens borrowing more than we could afford - we, the people, to blame
4. Financial institutions over-leveraged to housing market through securitization and undercapitalized given the risks they were running - banks, shareholders, rating agencies and regulators to blame. Ditto governments who were happy to look the other way whilst reaping tax revenues on bank profits.
6. Lack of transparency such that when the merde hit the fan, nobody knew what shape the others were in, trust by the banks in each other evaporated, so they froze lending and liquidity dried up - banks and regulators to blame.

Bankers and derivatives all played their role. But there's no room here for finger pointing.There were no saints here.

Back on topic. One key reason Switzerland is not in deep doo doo like the UK and the US is because even when credit was cheap, the people and their various federal cantonal and communal governments did not get up to their eyeballs in debt and, broadly speaking across the whole country, they have avoided a property boom and bust.

Sorry Wolli, Switzerland came off lightly. But it did it because it kept its own house in order.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #65  
Old 09.06.2011, 13:24
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Feeling a little justified...?

Quote:
View Post
"bound to" ? If you look at the figures of the past 10 years realistically, you see that there in reality WAS a stagnation in most years. If you compare the economies of Switzerland and Austria you can see that the once far weaker Austria within 20 years has moved up to the same level.

Blurb...
Wolli the UK is not in the same planet as mainland Northern/Central Europe/Switzerland, I remember last year living in NL and the Dutch complaining about the credit crisis. I remember thinking what credit crisis?

I go home and shops are closing down, no one has any money and most high streets resemble ghost towns outside of the major cities.

People are being squeezed by petrol, food and energy costs, so any money spare they did have is disappearing rapidly.

Side note, it's interesting CH petrol prices have remained stable, I wonder if that has anything to do with the CHF vs USD exchange rate. This also has a knock on and effects food prices.

It's a mess and about to get a whole lot worse when round 2 kicks in. (Greece, then Portugal, then Ireland, Spain and eventually the UK.)

The UK is in bed with financial institutions and as we know they are the ones causing the collapse due to their incompetence . We can thank several people for allowing this to happen, but until the problem is addressed and the banks reigned in this will continue to happen in cycles indefinitely.

The problem is these people holding the cards with pockets full of cash are in charge they are not about to give up their empires soon until they are burned at the stake. I'm hoping for some old fashioned witch hunts and vigilante justice in central London.

Try looking at this site. Some interesting stats eh.

http://www.ukuncut.org.uk/targets/banks

I've got nothing against someone earning money to whatever amount, what I do have a problem with is paying for someone else's mistakes and the avoidance of tax, which seems to be a perk of the ultra wealthy.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #66  
Old 09.06.2011, 13:26
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Feeling a little justified...?

Quote:
View Post
Back on topic. One key reason Switzerland is not in deep doo doo like the UK and the US is because even when credit was cheap, the people and their various federal cantonal and communal governments did not get up to their eyeballs in debt and, broadly speaking across the whole country, they have avoided a property boom and bust.

Sorry Wolli, Switzerland came off lightly. But it did it because it kept its own house in order.
Totally agree this statement applies to most of Western Europe, unfortunately people in the UK have inherited the US disease.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 09.06.2011, 13:27
Carlos R's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Roundn'about Basel
Posts: 7,232
Groaned at 105 Times in 95 Posts
Thanked 9,934 Times in 4,178 Posts
Carlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Feeling a little justified...?

Quote:
View Post
I can also talk about what is current. Does anyone (apart from wolli) seriously think Switzerland has had it hard the past few years?
No.

Quote:
View Post
Although I do agree that CH has been relatively stable compared to its other European neighbours, despite Wolli's claims to the contrary.


Quote:
View Post
Back on topic. One key reason Switzerland is not in deep doo doo like the UK and the US is because even when credit was cheap, the people and their various federal cantonal and communal governments did not get up to their eyeballs in debt and, broadly speaking across the whole country, they have avoided a property boom and bust.
What I heard is that Swiss banks are not allowed to over-stretch themselves in the way UK and, I guess, other banks did. Something about investments being <x% of their capital.

Last edited by Carlos R; 09.06.2011 at 14:23.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Carlos R for this useful post:
  #68  
Old 09.06.2011, 13:28
Upthehatters2008's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: In the kitchen at parties.
Posts: 4,540
Groaned at 204 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 6,078 Times in 2,378 Posts
Upthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Feeling a little justified...?

Interesting comments from our Finance experts. I suppose it is all about risk aversity. Some people make a lot of money from market volatility, markets that creates paupers and millionaires overnight in the same swift trade. Myself, getting on a bit, am more averse to risk, along with the impending pipe and slippers , I tend to enjoy stability around me. I do not like the profit and misery that overheated markets cause. Perhaps I have found a little bit of Swiss in me, because thet tend to sail their economical ship on a steady tack, careful long term investments, avoiding the smash and grab investments so long associated with boom and bust markets.


I like my appartment. No where near as big as my 4 bed / 11 room house I sold up in the UK, but more manageable. Expensive, as every place here is. But then again security of tenure is far greater here, so is security at work in terms of what happens if I get fired fo whatever reason, there is a nice safety net here. I have peace of mind, or wishfully think so.

I can't take my money with me, Let me spend it on the comfortable, predictable, annoyingly expensive life that is Switzerland.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 09.06.2011, 13:47
Clarejane's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Where my heart is
Posts: 349
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 540 Times in 185 Posts
Clarejane has a reputation beyond reputeClarejane has a reputation beyond reputeClarejane has a reputation beyond reputeClarejane has a reputation beyond reputeClarejane has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Feeling a little justified...?

Quote:
View Post


I like my appartment. No where near as big as my 4 bed / 11 room house I sold up in the UK
But bigger than my 2 bedroom maisonette, in a dead end town with rent around 1000chf with current rates.

Going back to what has already been said it is all about personal choice and what you are looking for out of life.

Most of you seem to be fortunate to have friends and family that don't seem to be suffering. For me I have many friends and members of the family that are really feeling the pinch. But its not just the financials as has already been mentioned.

The quality of life is what I look for, again personal choice. I'm not bothered about going out to eat. I am actually enjoying learning how to cook properly again. The kids aren't taking their life into their hands going out with a wallet full of pocket money and the latest mobile phone. I don't have to work here, in the UK I was working full time, leaving my son to come home to an empty house. My work was in the public sector under constant threat and causing no end of worry if I ended up claiming benefits across the desk from one of my previous colleagues. To be able to phone and get a doctors appointment for the very same day, not wait in a casualty department for hours on end when my son damages himself

I consider myself lucky. Lucky that I have had the opportunity to not struggle quite so much for a little while. To live in a vibrant city, meet new friends have a nice apartment and be able to have a stroll in the forest with the dog . The sort of life I'd always wanted but never been able to attain with all the trappings of working full time in the UK. To be able to phone and get a doctors appointment for the very same day, not wait in a casualty department for hours on end when my son damages himself. Its far more than 'the money', its all the other things that are failing in the UK. You may pay more for some of these things here, but you get the service to go with it. Would rather not eat out if I know that when I need to my family is looked after when needed.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Clarejane for this useful post:
  #70  
Old 09.06.2011, 14:22
simon_ch's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,390
Groaned at 128 Times in 76 Posts
Thanked 3,488 Times in 1,377 Posts
simon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Feeling a little justified...?

Quote:
View Post
What however many Swiss fail to realize is that CH in the longer term simply will be on an equal level with Austria, Bavaria, Baden-Württemberg, Alsace, Savoie, Piemonte, Lombardia. There is NOT real reason why this should be different. It WAS different for some decades since WWII as exactly these regions suffered from the longterm-consequences of the war. So that it is not a catastrophe but a "back to normal". Therefore, if you use the S-Bahn in Zürich, the "German" drivers are NOT from B-W, but from Saxonia and Sachsen-Anhalt
I don't think many Swiss don't realize that Baden-Würthenberg and other regions aren't already roughly on PPP with CH, that is common knowledge really. But the real reason why these very competitive regions around Switzerland won't catch up is because they have to transfer a lot of funds to their respective central government and weaker reasons. Berlin requires quite a bit more money than the canton of Jura.

Either way, credit/banking crisis: Germany and UK at least as much affected.
China export crisis: Germany equally affected.
Luxury market: France equally affected.

Switzerland will be and has always been affected by crises of its exporting main markets, but I see absolutely zero argument on how it could lose its prime position among the European economies.
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 09.06.2011, 14:24
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 18,978
Groaned at 332 Times in 257 Posts
Thanked 11,715 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Feeling a little justified...?

Quote:
View Post
I can also talk about what is current. Does anyone (apart from wolli) seriously think Switzerland has had it hard the past few years?
A) Nobody thinks that Switzerland "had it hard" in the past few years
B) British Airways was NOT bought by Lufthansa
C) the low level of the UK£ allows UK cies to undercut competition
C-2) and make life hard for others
D) Switzerland was hit hard in regard to inbound tourism (eco.nr.2)
D-2) hit in regard to tourism to rural (alpine) destinations
D-3) NOT hit in regard to tourism to cities/towns
E) Switzerland was hit in regard to the export industry (eco.nr.1)
F) Switzerland was hit hard in regard to the banking crisis

That Switzerland went through all this fairly well is the reason for the celebratory mood of Federal Economics Minister Schneider-Ammann yesterday

Let me counterask: Did the UK "have it hard" in recent years ? Really ?
Did Germany have it hard in recent years ? ask the receivers of the German welfare programs ! And so on.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 09.06.2011, 14:27
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 18,978
Groaned at 332 Times in 257 Posts
Thanked 11,715 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Feeling a little justified...?

Quote:
View Post
Along with bankers, a popular scapegoat granted, among people who think they know. But that's not what fed the financial crisis.
In no particular order:
1. Credit bubble with weak regulation - government and regulators to blame
2. Housing bubble - government to blame
3. Citizens borrowing more than we could afford - we, the people, to blame
4. Financial institutions over-leveraged to housing market through securitization and undercapitalized given the risks they were running - banks, shareholders, rating agencies and regulators to blame. Ditto governments who were happy to look the other way whilst reaping tax revenues on bank profits.
6. Lack of transparency such that when the merde hit the fan, nobody knew what shape the others were in, trust by the banks in each other evaporated, so they froze lending and liquidity dried up - banks and regulators to blame.

Bankers and derivatives all played their role. But there's no room here for finger pointing.There were no saints here.

Back on topic. One key reason Switzerland is not in deep doo doo like the UK and the US is because even when credit was cheap, the people and their various federal cantonal and communal governments did not get up to their eyeballs in debt and, broadly speaking across the whole country, they have avoided a property boom and bust.

Sorry Wolli, Switzerland came off lightly. But it did it because it kept its own house in order.
As Schneider-Ammann said, Switzerland came off quite splendidly, in spite of the many problems. His conclusion: "looks as if we have done something right after all"

************************************************** ******************************


Quote:
View Post
Wolli the UK is not in the same planet as mainland Northern/Central Europe/Switzerland, I remember last year living in NL and the Dutch complaining about the credit crisis. I remember thinking what credit crisis?

I go home and shops are closing down, no one has any money and most high streets resemble ghost towns outside of the major cities.

People are being squeezed by petrol, food and energy costs, so any money spare they did have is disappearing rapidly.

Side note, it's interesting CH petrol prices have remained stable, I wonder if that has anything to do with the CHF vs USD exchange rate. This also has a knock on and effects food prices.

It's a mess and about to get a whole lot worse when round 2 kicks in. (Greece, then Portugal, then Ireland, Spain and eventually the UK.)

The UK is in bed with financial institutions and as we know they are the ones causing the collapse due to their incompetence . We can thank several people for allowing this to happen, but until the problem is addressed and the banks reigned in this will continue to happen in cycles indefinitely.

The problem is these people holding the cards with pockets full of cash are in charge they are not about to give up their empires soon until they are burned at the stake. I'm hoping for some old fashioned witch hunts and vigilante justice in central London.

Try looking at this site. Some interesting stats eh.

http://www.ukuncut.org.uk/targets/banks

I've got nothing against someone earning money to whatever amount, what I do have a problem with is paying for someone else's mistakes and the avoidance of tax, which seems to be a perk of the ultra wealthy.
Petrol and other raw materials have become cheap in CHF as they on a global scale are calculated in US$, in Euro and in UK£. This is why the Swiss economy managed to cope, as lots of things needed remained at least stable. I mean, petrol is an important ingredient for commercial calculations. Look at the chocolate industry. Cocoa and Sugar have become less expensive for CH companies and transport-costs remained stable.

For most of Western Europe, an important question in the end will be what will happen with their past and present and future exports to Greece. The Greek state may be bankrupt, but the Greek economy is not. So that we have to divide monetary things from general economic aspects.

Our banking chaps possibly can explain what exactly would/will happen once the Hellenic Republic declares insolvency !


************************************************** ******************************

Last edited by Wollishofener; 09.06.2011 at 14:43.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Wollishofener for this useful post:
  #73  
Old 09.06.2011, 15:25
porsch1909
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Feeling a little justified...?

Quote:
View Post
A) Nobody thinks that Switzerland "had it hard" in the past few years
B) British Airways was NOT bought by Lufthansa
C) the low level of the UK£ allows UK cies to undercut competition
C-2) and make life hard for others
D) Switzerland was hit hard in regard to inbound tourism (eco.nr.2)
D-2) hit in regard to tourism to rural (alpine) destinations
D-3) NOT hit in regard to tourism to cities/towns
E) Switzerland was hit in regard to the export industry (eco.nr.1)
F) Switzerland was hit hard in regard to the banking crisis

That Switzerland went through all this fairly well is the reason for the celebratory mood of Federal Economics Minister Schneider-Ammann yesterday

Let me counterask: Did the UK "have it hard" in recent years ? Really ?
Did Germany have it hard in recent years ? ask the receivers of the German welfare programs ! And so on.
Are you implying that the UK isn't in pretty poor shape since 2008?

Is it sunny on planet Wolli?
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 09.06.2011, 15:30
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ticino & London
Posts: 2,016
Groaned at 173 Times in 93 Posts
Thanked 1,139 Times in 628 Posts
Cashboy has a reputation beyond reputeCashboy has a reputation beyond reputeCashboy has a reputation beyond reputeCashboy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Feeling a little justified...?

Quote:
View Post
No, YOU have not got it. The last few years for Switzerland is a picnic compared to what is potentially to come.

You will see soon enough when Greece defaults/re-structures (Switzerland is massively exposed to Greek debt). The tremors from the coming collapse in China will be felt throughout the world.

Book your Mandarin classes now for your future employment.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 09.06.2011, 15:34
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ticino & London
Posts: 2,016
Groaned at 173 Times in 93 Posts
Thanked 1,139 Times in 628 Posts
Cashboy has a reputation beyond reputeCashboy has a reputation beyond reputeCashboy has a reputation beyond reputeCashboy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Feeling a little justified...?

Quote:
View Post
I'm sold due to the bathroom tiles
When the economy completely crashes, I am sure the tiles would not put somebody off having a roof over their heads and somewhere to have a cr@p and a wash.
In fact the stereo type sheep syndrome (must have this and not that) is exactly the reason that a lot of people are in debt worrying that what they have is not acceptable.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 09.06.2011, 15:46
Carlos R's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Roundn'about Basel
Posts: 7,232
Groaned at 105 Times in 95 Posts
Thanked 9,934 Times in 4,178 Posts
Carlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond reputeCarlos R has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Feeling a little justified...?

Quote:
View Post
In fact the stereo type sheep syndrome (must have this and not that) is exactly the reason that a lot of people are in debt worrying that what they have is not acceptable.
Actually I would argue that they have absolutely no patience or discipline, and do not appreciate the value of money vs. debt. But that's just me.

Having "this or that" is not an issue. Having "this or that" when you have to borrow beyond your means is. People still don't really understand that having a mortgage = debt.

You ask someone in the streets on the UK whether they have debt:

A = no
Q = do you have a house with a mortgage?
A = yes... but that doesn't count...
Q = do have a credit card?
A = yes, in fact 4, but they don't count as I pay them back
Q = full amount at the end of each month?
A = errr... no
Q = do you have any store cards?
A = why yes, they give me fantastic discounts.
Q = but you also borrow money against them?
A = errr... yes
Q = so what are you doing now?
A = well, I've just bought the latest Playstation and an HD flat screen TV...
Q = on credit...?
A = oh no. I used the store card, they gave me a 10% discount and I don't have to pay until next year...

__________________
Never let right or wrong get in the way of a good opinion

Last edited by Carlos R; 09.06.2011 at 16:09.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Carlos R for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Geneva: Kemplinski Java Club, are the prices justified? The_Love_Doctor Complaints corner 19 09.06.2012 06:18
Feeling broody? The_Love_Doctor Jokes/funnies 12 18.02.2010 12:38
overstay justified? malad5 Permits/visas/government 4 08.05.2008 13:34
Is the widening wage gap justified? litespeed Swiss politics/news 21 28.06.2007 10:54
War in Lebanon - Justified or Not? Gav International affairs/politics 81 01.12.2006 17:48


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 23:11.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0