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  #21  
Old 09.07.2011, 01:30
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Re: Virtual grieving, why do we do it?

Grieving is very personal, online outlets add a new dimension. It's not what people say online, just that they are saying it online. Read nothing into the words but everything into the act.
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  #22  
Old 09.07.2011, 01:33
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Re: Virtual grieving, why do we do it?

UTH- I understand, I lost mz best friend when I was 14 on a car crash, I still have not fully recovered!!!
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Old 09.07.2011, 01:35
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Re: Virtual grieving, why do we do it?

May I also offer my condolecences UTH for having drawn what must be the shortest straw ever. That is a huge burden for one to bear.

However, I think what you are feeling goes some way towards explaining what Assassin is saying in his opening post. Whilst we are all deeply touched by the very untimely and tragic loss of Begga's young and vibrant life, incidents such as this often serve to remind us of our own sense of grief and loss; all too often emotions that we have either not had the time to, or been able to, come to terms with in the past.
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Old 09.07.2011, 01:37
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Re: Virtual grieving, why do we do it?

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Recent events have unearthed feelings not properly dealt with. Nuff said. Not enough said, who knows.
Probably both.

All is clear. I now understand your comments and respect your diffidence on this subject. I have learnt something.

Please accept appologies for any hurt my previous posts may have caused.

I do hope there has been something positive that you have gotten out of this process, whether it makes sense or not.
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Old 09.07.2011, 01:45
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Re: Virtual grieving, why do we do it?

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Probably both.

All is clear. I now understand your comments and respect your diffidence on this subject. I have learnt something.

Please accept appologies for any hurt my previous posts may have caused.

I do hope there has been something positive that you have gotten out of this process, whether it makes sense or not.
Better out than in mate. There are never answers ad to why it happened, and questioning is just denial. Celebrate the life that was, live the life that should be and carpe diem. Tomorrow is not guaranteed. Begga , the soul, lives. Smiling down on us. Hoping we can grasp the non permanence of the physical world, and that we should not fear the transition we call death. Death is best handled with detachment, inevitable, unavoidable. The quicker we accept our non permanent nature, the more comfortable we are with the inevitable.

I strongly recommend the Dalai Lama's series of Happiness books translated by Howard Cutler.
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  #26  
Old 09.07.2011, 03:21
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Re: Virtual grieving, why do we do it?

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Nonetheless, I have observed as a bit of an outsider that the mention of Marks life and death invoke a fairly strong reverence that seems to show no sign of weakening.

Maybe the fact that Mark was viewed as a father figure or progenitor, whereas Begga was viewed as a sibling or a little one, and this changes the way that we experience our grief in her passing.
I think that's a pretty accurate observation.


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May I also offer my condolecences UTH for having drawn what must be the shortest straw ever. That is a huge burden for one to bear.

However, I think what you are feeling goes some way towards explaining what Assassin is saying in his opening post. Whilst we are all deeply touched by the very untimely and tragic loss of Begga's young and vibrant life, incidents such as this often serve to remind us of our own sense of grief and loss; all too often emotions that we have either not had the time to, or been able to, come to terms with in the past.
I think you're right - her untimely death has probably triggered something in all of us who have lost someone, especially if we've not been able to fully deal with the emotions of it all.
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Old 09.07.2011, 03:49
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Re: Virtual grieving, why do we do it?

Yes. Her death did trigger something in me. I cried for her, but also for people close to me who have died over the past few years.

In a way, it was a good cry. Gets all the crap out of you.

I thought about Begga and then started thinking about other people and had a good old sob.

Red eyes.
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  #28  
Old 09.07.2011, 07:30
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Re: Virtual grieving, why do we do it?

Is it really Virtual ?

I don't think so.....

(gosh I would like to write more, but it goes on spiritual stuff, not the place here.)
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  #29  
Old 09.07.2011, 08:13
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Re: Virtual grieving, why do we do it?

I did not know Begga and had little direct contact with her on the forum.

What I found so fascinating was reading about the lives she touched, the emotions her life and death invoked on the forum and subsequently, the feeling of unity that developed. EF had become a team with a common goal: to grieve for a well-liked member.

In a week or two, much of the public grieving will have passed and we'll go back to being snarky know-it-alls, but somewhere the vein of unity and having bonded will continue to flow and much good will come out of this tragedy.
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  #30  
Old 09.07.2011, 08:42
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Re: Virtual grieving, why do we do it?

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... Whilst we are all deeply touched by the very untimely and tragic loss of Begga's young and vibrant life, incidents such as this often serve to remind us of our own sense of grief and loss; all too often emotions that we have either not had the time to, or been able to, come to terms with in the past.
That's an interesting point. I'm curious about those who have not experienced death so frequently if they are more likely to publically emote [dramatise?] over someone they didn't even know, than those 'familiar' with death and it's consequences.

Princess Diana's death bordered on hysteria in the UK. The catharsis over a stranger - a very public stranger - seemed perverse.

Several people I know on here have had rough lives, lost many in unbearable circumstances and have developed a reluctantly calm method of dealing with loss. Perhaps those who are yet to experience such tragedy and have the means of instant self expression through online outlets are more inclined to do so?

Maybe I'm troubled by the seeming lack of a private sphere; these days everything needs to be broadcast; the more dramatic, the better.

I get a little uncomfortable when there's public outpouring of grief over someone many people didn't know but suddenly feel the need to express their grief; it somehow feels projected, although I'm sure it's sincere. Sincere, but projected.

Clearly EF is a social bond between disparate people here in Switzerland - and beyond - and perhaps it's the raw publicity of the response which seems somewhat overwhelming. In the past, only the family would receive the attention. Somehow all users are constantly reminded everytime someone bumps a thread that there's been a tragedy; this seems almost Pavlovian.

Then again, when a beautiful woman walks into a room, I look at the other people's reactions...

Peace and love.
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  #31  
Old 09.07.2011, 08:53
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Re: Virtual grieving, why do we do it?

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UTH- I understand, I lost mz best friend when I was 14 on a car crash, I still have not fully recovered!!!
I lost my best friend when I was 15. But in that case, the mourning was extremely hard to come to term with and to accept that she killed herself. It send me down into depression, I lost a year in school (because I couldn't care less) and I didn't have any support to help me come to term with it. I think I will always be marked from it even stronger because of the lack of support from parents and friends.

Is it why I am so supportive now? Is it why I am always there for friends? Is it why the forum is so important for me? Maybe, I don't know.

But what I like about the forum is to have no barrier of physical apparence. It doesn't matter how old you are, what color is your skin, if you are big, skinny, have two head, no legs, etc.

We connect through our brain in a way we wouldn't connect outside. I wouldn't probably have a deep conversation about which spoon is the best with a 60-70 years old man in the street. But on the forum, I am having conversations with people of all level, backgrounds, nationalities, ages, religions, etc. The forum is a bit like a virtual living room where everyone who wants to come, sit and join the conversation, share thoughts and emotions. Not something I can see happening in a parc.

Begga was a wonderful person inside and outside the forum. She was very active, created so many events and was able to bring people together. Because she met so many people and made such of an impact on people, we are here to share our experiences with her in & out the forum. We share our emotions and thoughts here more than we will do outside. Because outside it is not the thing to do, you have to stay composed, etc.
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  #32  
Old 09.07.2011, 09:04
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Re: Virtual grieving, why do we do it?

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... We share our emotions and thoughts here more than we will do outside. Because outside it is not the thing to do, you have to stay composed, etc.
I find this curious. Why would you be another person online than you are in 'real life'? Is online communication not sincere? Or vice versa?

I talk to people exactly the same in most situations (my spelling is worse in Real Life). Interesting insight
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Old 09.07.2011, 09:08
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Re: Virtual grieving, why do we do it?

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Maybe I'm troubled by the seeming lack of a private sphere; these days everything needs to be broadcast; the more dramatic, the better.
Being able to hide behind our nicknames allows many of us to post things we wouldn't normally do.

- Perhaps Begga's death triggered a festering grief that needed to be addressed.

- Perhaps wanting to be included in public grief gives us a satisfaction of being involved in a common bond.

- Perhaps many just wanted to feel and share love and comfort.

- And some are actually grieving for a person they knew and loved.

Whatever the reason, I find public grief for a public or virtual person generally healing. It is worrying, however, when someone carries this grief over into their private life and makes an issue out of it.
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  #34  
Old 09.07.2011, 09:14
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Re: Virtual grieving, why do we do it?

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I find this curious. Why would you be another person online than you are in 'real life'? Is online communication not sincere? Or vice versa?

I talk to people exactly the same in most situations (my spelling is worse in Real Life). Interesting insight
Again you misread what I said.

It is not something done in many culture to display emotions. You don't cry in public, you keep your thoughts for yourself, etc.

It doesn't make someone being ''another'' person online. It just allowed her to freely express him/herself.
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Old 09.07.2011, 09:17
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Re: Virtual grieving, why do we do it?

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Whatever the reason, I find public grief for a public or virtual person generally healing. It is worrying, however, when someone carries this grief over into his private life and makes an issue out of it.
are you talking about anyone in particular?

Great post UM - I wonder if your thoughts (along with mine) stem from the stoic british stiff upper lip attitude? Some cultures wail in the street with grief - as a Brit I find myself feeling the need to be more private in grief. I have also lost friends in tragic circumstances and news of Beggas death made me quietly reflect on those losses

Last edited by Nickers; 09.07.2011 at 09:38.
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Old 09.07.2011, 09:25
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Re: Virtual grieving, why do we do it?

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are you talking about anyone in particular?
I meant it as a general statement.
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Old 09.07.2011, 09:32
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Re: Virtual grieving, why do we do it?

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Maybe I'm troubled by the seeming lack of a private sphere; these days everything needs to be broadcast; the more dramatic, the better.

I get a little uncomfortable when there's public outpouring of grief over someone many people didn't know but suddenly feel the need to express their grief; it somehow feels projected, although I'm sure it's sincere. Sincere, but projected.
great post, Uncle Max.

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Great post UM - I wonder if your thoughts (along with mine) stem from the stoic british stiff upper lip attitude? Some cultures wail in the street with grief - as a Brit I find myself feeling the need to be more private in my grief. I have also lost friends in tragic circumstances and news of Beggas death made me quietly reflect on those losses
I thought about that as well, but I think there's more of a generational component at work as well. I'm not from a British culture, but I totally get the need to grieve respectfully in private.
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Old 09.07.2011, 09:45
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Re: Virtual grieving, why do we do it?

On EF we squabble, laugh, torment, welcome, help, joke and gang up on people. The one other type of cohesive social group that displays this as typical behavior is a family.

EF is a family.

From its very outset it has been instrumental in bringing people together. Regular members are on the forum all day or at least every day. I have seen groups emerge and then disperse only for new groups and members to emerge as Alpha dogs. The Sociological aspect of this forum is something worth studying. I find it endlessly fascinating.

Thousands of people come to Switzerland and find themselves in a boat. What they don't know is that they are in the same boat as many others, just like them. When they come upon a community like this there is an instant identification - we all have something in common, we're all strangers here, we all have to learn the language, we all go through the same steps on the same journey. When you find yourself in a situation like that, you form a strong bond. Bonds can be made outside of the physical realm.

That is quite something when you think about it. So, our human nature means that we then form an alliance, it's us against the world. These are my people, my kin, my clan and my family. This is tribal.

We chat with people on this forum and write to them through PMs and posts. Year after year (it's been 5 years now...) we get to know people, even though it's virtual, we get to know their words, personalities, quirks, humour and characteristics. When you spend this amount of time on a forum with this many people you form a bond. You get to know their characters well.

I don't deal with nearly as many real humans as I do characters on this forum and I have developed real relations with some of these characters. The fact that they are online does not diminish the value or validity of their characters at all.

So, if I've seen someone like Begga join us as a fledgling, break into a family (and we know how hard that can be, we don't make it easy), become an active member, bring people together, chat all day with many, many people - connections have been established, friendships and allegiances have been made.

When someone from this community dies, and it's the second time it's happened, for many people here it's like a clan, tribe or family death. The loss is real, the grief is real, the pain and shock are real. It's a real event that hits home even if the bulk of our relations and communication is not real.

Mark's death was a shocker because he was The Architect, he was the founder, leader and for lack of a better word, he was EFs father. Begga was one of this community's daughters; Bergþóra EFsdottir.

I don't believe that anyone's death would receive the same reaction. For example if I were to die, I really would not expect the forum to grieve en masse as they have for Begga. This is simply true because I have not bothered to actually get to know that many people here and I am not as charismatic, have not been as active and not as well known. I believe the outpouring of grief is representative of how well known and liked she was.

Many of us have been through Mark's death and Begga's death, but most of you have only just experienced Begga's death. So for many here it is the first shock of the passing of a friend, made here.

What is interesting is that people grieve and share their sorrow with strangers online. Instead of knocking this or diminishing its value, I applaud it. I think that we have become desensitized to sorrow and human emotion. In some way I find it archaic and revitalizing. These are natural and true emotions and what is important is that we feel them and allow ourselves to feel them without being dictated to by so-called social norms.

People obviously need an outlet and if that's the case, then let it out. If it's an online community that provides them the means, and if it's the death of one of its members then let it be I say, let it out.

Peace.
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  #39  
Old 09.07.2011, 09:54
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Re: Virtual grieving, why do we do it?

I loved your beautiful post, Traubert. That made me cry too, just as the photographs of Begga did.
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Old 09.07.2011, 10:10
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Re: Virtual grieving, why do we do it?

I've lost friends, family and colleagues over the years. Some to suicide, some to disease and some to accident. For Begga, I did my grieving for the most part last Sunday - though still find myself getting weepy since then - I'm not that emotionally controlled! What I've found important and helpful, is to talk about the one that's gone. Their good and bad points, and their impact on our lives. The fact that they were loved by others. Those who hardly knew Begga have contributed their thoughts, and that, in my view, helps those who knew her very well. Some of us who didn't know her so well, join in the grieving out of empathy with those who are did. Messages of sympathy are great - "I'm human, you're human, death is awful, we're all in this together". That's how some of strangers we've talked with at the site have responded.

This virtual community greatly enhances our ability to share our grief. I think this is a good thing.
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