How is the crime rate in the Switzerland compare to England? - Page 7

lost_inbroad · #**121** 26.07.2011, 14:04

	Quote:	Shorrick Mk2
	Art. 28 of the Civil Code applies. References: RO 1984* 778; FF 1982 II 661. Good try though.*

Did you actually read the content of Art. 28 of the Civil Code?

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Home/Arc...l?cid=15333552

Try again...

Shorrick Mk2 · #**122** 26.07.2011, 14:08

	Quote:	lost_inbroad
	Did you actually read the content of Art. 28 of the Civil Code? http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Home/Arc...l?cid=15333552 Try again...

Gladly

	Quote:
	En cas de violence, de menaces ou de harcèlement, le demandeur peut requérir le juge d’interdire à l’auteur de l’atteinte, en particulier: 1. de l’approcher ou d’accéder à un périmètre déterminé autour de son logement; 2. de fréquenter certains lieux, notamment des rues, places ou quartiers; 3. de prendre contact avec lui, notamment par téléphone, par écrit ou par voie électronique, ou de lui causer d’autres dérangements

Absence of a specific law doesn't mean lack of legal framework. But if swissinfo is all the legal education you have I can't blame you. I bolded the relevant words for an easier read. Try again.

I shall point you to a key phrase in your "legal brief":

	Quote:
	The cabinet believes that existing criminal laws cover typical stalker behaviour such as coercion, threats and defamation

lost_inbroad · #**123** 26.07.2011, 14:15

	Quote:	Shorrick Mk2
	Gladly Absence of a specific law doesn't mean lack of legal framework. But if swissinfo is all the legal education you have I can't blame you. I bolded the relevant words for an easier read. Try again. I shall point you to a key phrase in your "legal brief":

Neither coercion, threats and defamation has anything to do with stalking...it may be hard for you to understand as you're probably from a place where lawlessness prevails, however most people would agree with my point of view. Hence, there is no law against stalking in Switzerland.

#**124** 26.07.2011, 14:16

	Quote:	lost_inbroad
	. Many victims are still unaware of their rights.

Especially, if new to a country, where language skills are limited or if you feel intimidated by the system. It's a sad fact that criminals often know how to pick easy targets. Thankfully heroes sometimes turn up in the most unlikely places, but there should be systems easily accessible to inform victims of their rights.
In the UK and US I am very aware of my rights- in Switzerland it was a struggle to get information. I am persistent and have a sense of entitlement

, so I found out things that even some Swiss did not know existed. I found on my last visit that informing people of their rights is changing somewhat, but still does not receive enough emphasis. Many politicians have little incentive to pump money into helping those who are ineligible to vote or do not wield financial clout. I have to say a major thank you to this forum and the people who help others. Many people don't realize just how this far this forum is acting as a main resource; to help Swiss and foreigners integrate and, in some ways, as a pressure group to help bring about change.

herc82 · #**125** 26.07.2011, 14:28

	Quote:	lost_inbroad
	Neither coercion, threats and defamation has anything to do with stalking...it may be hard for you to understand as you're probably from a place where lawlessness prevails, however most people would agree with my point of view. Hence, there is no law against stalking in Switzerland.

Straight from Article 28b on the federal website - English is not an official language of the Swiss Confederation. This translation is provided for information purposes only and has no legal force.Art. 28b1

b. Violence, threats or harassment
1 To obtain protection from violence, threats or harassment the applicant may request the court in particular to order the offending party to refrain from:
1.approaching the applicant or from entering a defined area around the applicant’s dwelling;2.frequenting specified locations, notably particular streets, squares or districts;3.from making contact with the applicant, especially by telephone, in writing or electronically, or from harassing the applicant in any other way. 2 If the applicant lives in the same dwelling as the offending party, the applicant may ask the court to order the offending party to leave the dwelling for a specified period. This period may be extended on one occasion for good cause.
END OF QUOTE (there's more, but no point to post it all...)

#**126** 26.07.2011, 14:30

	Quote:	amogles
	fixed that for you.

I was going to thank you for this- it made me laugh, but then realized that some people on this forum might not get the joke and report me to the Fremdenpolizei!

Regarding should we keep track on things that are not illegal but perhaps some people think should be? I would say definitely " yes" that is how laws are changed to reflect the changes in society. Take the prostitution law for example some thought that it should be illegal for 16 year olds to legally prostitute themselves and now the law is changing, so what was not illegal yesterday will be illegal tomorrow. I am hoping that they change the Rockefeller drug laws in NY

As for Shorrick- the self-proclaimed resident expert who will quickly bow out as soon as he begins to come unstuck.

lost_inbroad · #**127** 26.07.2011, 14:38

	Quote:	herc82
	Straight from Article 28b on the federal website - English is not an official language of the Swiss Confederation. This translation is provided for information purposes only and has no legal force.Art. 28b1 b. Violence, threats or harassment 1 To obtain protection from violence, threats or harassment the applicant may request the court in particular to order the offending party to refrain from: 1.approaching the applicant or from entering a defined area around the applicant’s dwelling;2.frequenting specified locations, notably particular streets, squares or districts;3.from making contact with the applicant, especially by telephone, in writing or electronically, or from harassing the applicant in any other way. 2 If the applicant lives in the same dwelling as the offending party, the applicant may ask the court to order the offending party to leave the dwelling for a specified period. This period may be extended on one occasion for good cause. END OF QUOTE (there's more, but no point to post it all...)

..but this has nothing to do with stalking. Do you know what stalking is?

herc82 · #**128** 26.07.2011, 14:41

	Quote:	lost_inbroad
	..but this has nothing to do with stalking. Do you know what stalking is?

Seems the legal definition may come frustratingly close to the translation of 28b...

A person who intentionally and repeatedly follows or harasses another person and who makes a credible threat, either expressed or implied, with the intent to place that person in reasonable fear of death or serious bodily harm is guilty of the crime of stalking. A person may be charged with aggravated stalking if they commit the crime of stalking while subject to a temporary restraining order, injunction against trespass, or similar order.

#**129** 26.07.2011, 14:43

	Quote:	herc82
	Straight from Article 28b on the federal website - English is not an official language of the Swiss Confederation. This translation is provided for information purposes only and has no legal force.Art. 28b1

But, surely, when a law exists, don't you just hire a bilingual lawyer and they translate the law for you? That's what I did and won with no costs. However like lost_inbroad says you have to know your rights, it helps to have Swiss blood and a deep pocket.
It is when the law does not exist that you have an uphill battle to interpret the law, but that's not specific to Switzerland.

lost_inbroad · #**130** 26.07.2011, 14:46

	Quote:	herc82
	Seems the legal definition may come frustratingly close to the translation of 28b... A person who intentionally and repeatedly follows or harasses another person and who makes a credible threat, either expressed or implied, with the intent to place that person in reasonable fear of death or serious bodily harm is guilty of the crime of stalking. A person may be charged with aggravated stalking if they commit the crime of stalking while subject to a temporary restraining order, injunction against trespass, or similar order.

No really...but wiki has some interesting data...however only in German.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking

Scroll down to Switzerland.

and for whom is interested, here is the little bit about domestic violence, unfortunately also only in German. (source: Wikipedia)

	Quote:
	Seit dem 1. April 2004 gelten in der Schweiz Gewaltdelikte in Ehe und Partnerschaft als Offizialdelikt, d.h. sie müssen von Amts wegen verfolgt werden. Darunter fallen insbesondere schwere und einfache Körperverletzung, wiederholte Tätlichkeiten, Drohung, Nötigung, sexuelle Nötigung und Vergewaltigung. Dies gilt nicht nur für Ehepaare, sondern für alle heterosexuellen und homosexuellen Lebenspartnerschaften mit einem gemeinsamen Haushalt während des Zusammenlebens und ein Jahr darüber hinaus (für Ehepaare bis ein Jahr nach der Scheidung). In Hinsicht auf den Schutz des Opfers wurde in diesem Bereich - im Gegensatz zu anderen Offizialdelikten - vorgesehen, dass das Verfahren auf Antrag des Opfers eingestellt werden kann. Dies gilt nur für die Straftatbestände einfache Körperverletzung, wiederholte Tätlichkeiten, Drohung sowie Nötigung. Bei schwerer Körperverletzung, sexueller Nötigung und Vergewaltigung besteht diese Möglichkeit nicht. Die genauen Modalitäten der Verfahrenseinstellungen sind im Opferschutzgesetz geregelt.

#**131** 26.07.2011, 14:53

With regards to stalking it was my friend's case in the UK that actually helped change the stalking laws, she was given witness protection This isn't her but this is the background- the stalking bill failed (Scotland is slightly different) bu the harassment law won through.

	Quote:
	The Act resulted from the efforts of Evonne Leonora Von Heussen. A stalking victim herself, she launched the National Association for Victims of Stalking and Harassment (NASH) in 1993, when her then teen-age daughter was stalked by a dangerous character who was known to carry a knife. After Von Heussen found that she could get no help from the police, lawyers, or her local Member of Parliament she began researching anti-stalking laws in other countries. She opened a help line on which she eventually took tens of thousands of calls. She pursued each call with each victim's MP, and attracted a large amount of media attention. After several years of effort she persuaded the Home Office under Prime Minister John Major to take the issue on as a matter of government policy. She wrote the first draft of the act and worked closely with ministers and senior civil servants in the Home Office and the Lord Chancellor's Department as the final version took shape. She advised ministers from her seat in the Under Gallery, on the floor of the House of Commons, during the Second Reading Debate. After Royal Assent she worked with Home Office and Lord Chancellor's Department in training judges, lawyers, other court personnel, police and voluntary organizations in the use of the act. She received the MBE in the Queen's Birthday Honours List (1997) for her efforts. She also worked as a consultant on a number of court cases involving stalking and harassment. [edit]

So this is yet another example of how just because something is not yet a law doesn't mean that it shouldn't be.

herc82 · #**132** 26.07.2011, 15:00

	Quote:	lost_inbroad
	No really...but wiki has some interesting data...however only in German. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking Scroll down to Switzerland. and for whom is interested, here is the little bit about domestic violence, unfortunately also only in German. (source: Wikipedia)

Sorry, you seem to have omitted a question or statement in your text..

As for domestic violence - what has changed there is that it is now an Offizialdelikt - meaning, charges will be pressed automatically (previously only on request of the victim), plus the victim has the right to halt the charges/refuse to process. Only with some charges like grievous bodily harm, sexual coercion or rape, this option does not exist.

tom tulpe · #**133** 26.07.2011, 15:14

	Quote:	lost_inbroad
	No really...but wiki has some interesting data...however only in German. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking Scroll down to Switzerland. and for whom is interested, here is the little bit about domestic violence, unfortunately also only in German. (source: Wikipedia)

Ah, Wikipedia, the premier source of legal information

Also, these people seem to think that one of the negative point about Swiss anti-stalking laws is that "there has to be enough evidence". Well, d'oh.

So, again: You can't be sent to jail for "stalking", unless of course you commit some other criminal act in the process. Articles 179, 180 and 181 spring to mind. But the victim can obtain a cease and desist order under civil law against a stalker. Breaching that order is in itself a criminal act (Art. 292).

What's so hard to understand about that?

Carlos R · #**134** 26.07.2011, 15:15

	Quote:	cyrus
	Like fashion crimes?

There's a thread for that...

#**135** 26.07.2011, 15:31

	Quote:	tom tulpe
	Ah, Wikipedia, the premier source of legal information Also, these people seem to think that one of the negative point about Swiss anti-stalking laws is that "there has to be enough evidence". Well, d'oh. So, again: You can't be sent to jail for "stalking", unless of course you commit some other criminal act in the process. Articles 179, 180 and 181 spring to mind. But the victim can obtain a cease and desist order under civil law against a stalker. Breaching that order is in itself a criminal act (Art. 292). What's so hard to understand about that?

It is hard to understand though, what some may count as evidence others don't. I witnessed something wrote about it on this forum and others don't believe me. If I had been a stalking victim and gave a victim's statement that say the person threatened me, said they had a gun or knife, would that be 'evidence'? Are foreigners credible witnesses in Switzerland when they are accusing a Swiss person? I am treated very differently when I flash my passport.

Shorrick's gone already?

There's the law and then there is interpretation of the law, which is why you need the best lawyer you can get!

#**136** 26.07.2011, 15:40

	Quote:	hoppy
	It is hard to understand though, what some may count as evidence others don't. I witnessed something wrote about it on this forum and others don't believe me. If I had been a stalking victim and gave a victim's statement that say the person threatened me, said they had a gun or knife, would that be 'evidence'? Are foreigners credible witnesses in Switzerland when they are accusing a Swiss person? I am treated very differently when I flash my passport. Shorrick's gone already? There's the law and then there is interpretation of the law, which is why you need the best lawyer you can get!

I don't know of any developed land which convicts people with no evidence. Why should Switzerland be any different?

amogles · #**137** 26.07.2011, 15:52

	Quote:	hoppy
	It is hard to understand though, what some may count as evidence others don't. I witnessed something wrote about it on this forum and others don't believe me.

Er no, we didn't believe your interpretation of what you saw. That's something totally different.

If you say that schoolchildren were sent out to clean away evidence of a shooting so the press wouldn't find out, and when challenged whether that really was what was going on, you say there really were syringles lying around... I rest my argument. I really don't want to explain the obvious.

If you told that in court, the cross examiner would dismantle your evidence in no time. Not because it isn't true but because by mixing in your own interpretation you are dimishing the value of the evidence.

	Quote:	hoppy
	If I had been a stalking victim and gave a victim's statement that say the person threatened me, said they had a gun or knife, would that be 'evidence'?

er, if somebody threatened you with a knife why would you merely want to accuse them of stalking? If somebody robs a bank, would you be angry if people didn't believe they parked on double yellow lines?

	Quote:	hoppy
	are foreigners credible witnesses in Switzerland when they are accusing a Swiss person? I am treated very differently when I flash my passport.

you're getting very patronising again.

#**138** 26.07.2011, 15:56

	Quote:
	I don't know of any developed land which convicts people with no evidence. Why should Switzerland be any different?

It depends on the credibility of the victim, circumstantial evidence etc. which is why we have a jury in the criminal process. The jury should reflect a cross-section of society. Does a jury in Switzerland reflect a true cross-section of society or just those who managed to get through the stiff nationality laws to become Swiss? I don't know the answer- I'm just asking? Will a non- Swiss long-term resident in Switzerland be judged by a jury of their peers?

Anyway- I've got to go and hold up a placard outside City Hall-and meet with some lawyers, catch y'all later!

#**139** 26.07.2011, 15:58

	Quote:	hoppy
	It depends on the credibility of the victim, circumstantial evidence etc. which is why we have a jury in the criminal process. The jury should reflect a cross-section of society. Does a jury in Switzerland reflect a true cross-section of society or just those who managed to get through the stiff nationality laws to become Swiss? I don't know the answer- I'm just asking? Will a non- Swiss long-term resident in Switzerland be judged by a jury of their peers?

Switzerland doesn't have juries.

tom tulpe · #**140** 26.07.2011, 16:06

	Quote:	hoppy
	It is hard to understand though, what some may count as evidence others don't. I witnessed something wrote about it on this forum and others don't believe me. If I had been a stalking victim and gave a victim's statement that say the person threatened me, said they had a gun or knife, would that be 'evidence'? Are foreigners credible witnesses in Switzerland when they are accusing a Swiss person? I am treated very differently when I flash my passport.

That's nothing to do with stalking being illegal or not. That's whether or not the facts can be proven in a court of law, and ultimatley whether or not alleged victims of certain crimes should be believed prima facie. That's a rather dangerous idea, which has in the recent past been applied to allegation of sexual abuse of children - and which has lead to miscarriages of justice in the US, France, the UK and Germany.