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Old 06.08.2011, 18:44
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Re: 13year old path finder death, because the group underestimated a mountain tour!

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Just to share a little bit.. i think i read somewhere that this group of "kids" where boy scouts ..i really dont know for sure.

I write this because i am a troop scout leader back home. We never, let the kids go alone on hikes, (for kids a refer youngs from 9years old to 18years old).. I became a scout when i was 15 and i never went camping alone or hiking by myself and my friends without the supervision of a leader (we never tought of them as grown ups.. they where also our friends only a little older)

when i decided to stayed on my group and teach supervise or however you want to call it i was 20 years olds.. with experience on the who/when/how/where on camping and hiking but i was not in charge alone, there was another dude who was 34 and part of the troop for 10 years

we used to work with the 9 to 14 years old... and we had a lot of fun while camping and hiking.. teaching them how to set a proper fire and a lot of stuff...

where im going with all of these is: were where the person in charge, a 15 year old can be a leader of a small group for certain activities... but not be the responsable for the whole trip .. Not yet. It is not the same to be responsable for your acts and be responsable for a whole group. Especially if you are going hiking or camping a place completely new to you.

My question would it be, were where the parents? or the people in charge of the summer camp?
i tought here in switzerland people check and double check for safety ... especially with kids .. a 15 year old is still a kid
Well, here in Zürich, we went on hikes fully alone, at age 12, 13, 14, without any consulation with the "antiques" and nobody cared or at age 15 by bycicle to Basel or the Bodensee (Lake of Constance) or the Vierwaldstättersee (Lake of Lucerne) or to the Verkehrshaus (Luzern).

Your questions :
- where .... the parents = at home / in front of the TV / eating
- where ... the people in charge = in the bar ... on TV
- why check and double check ? = why ?
- a 15 year old is no longer a child (kid) but a "start-up adult " !
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Old 06.08.2011, 18:53
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Re: 13year old path finder death, because the group underestimated a mountain tour!

Yes.... and NO. A 15 year old should not be in charge of such a dangerous activity- helping and assisting a more experience adult leader yes, but on their own, in a place unsuitable for groups NO NO NO.
Why do we not allow 15 year olds to drive, be brain surgeons, teachers or psychiatrists, or indeed climbing instructors. Because they do not have the maturity, experience and relevant training.

And as a parent I would enquire about safety procedures, activities and the experience and qualifications of leaders before I'd let my kids go.
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Old 06.08.2011, 19:26
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Re: 13year old path finder death, because the group underestimated a mountain tour!

Exactly, you can go hiking alone by 12, 23 or 14 ...and nothing can happen... but when you face situation outside of your experience... then we all read it the news .. thats why as an adult you should teach them and you must know where and what are their plans so you can prepared them or tell them .. hell im going with you.

there is no comparison taking a trail you know, have taken before .. and a completely new trail with not much experience.

and why the double check? ..when i have my kids i want them to outlived me.. thats why
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Old 06.08.2011, 19:56
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Re: 13year old path finder death, because the group underestimated a mountain tour!

Makes me wonder how cautious these organizations are. Wasn't it just a few weeks ago that a little girl died in the camp when she hit a tree at pretty high speed coming down the zip line ?

Last edited by Caleb; 06.08.2011 at 19:56. Reason: typo
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Old 06.08.2011, 19:59
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Re: 13year old path finder death, because the group underestimated a mountain tour!

From what I understand from the article, they don't actually know what happened. I talked to my daughter, who is 17 and in the Pfadi, that under normal circumstances, the tour has to be approved by a scout leader and it is unlikely that the tour the kids did was the one that they had been approved. Otherwise, there was no chance they would have been up there in the first place. My daughter has done the safety courses, and has taken plenty of tests to prove her abilities, and only this summer has she been allowed, with other girls of her age to take younger kids on a camp. The tests she has done have been very rigourous and unless the team was sure she and the other girls were capable, they would not have been allowed to lead their own group. After seeing all that she has done in the past 10 years, I doubt very much the Pfadi would have allowed a 15 year older to lead such a hike. Personally, this sounds unfortunately like kids who went where they weren't supposed to go - but why not wait and see what the police say?
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Old 06.08.2011, 22:14
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Re: 13year old path finder death, because the group underestimated a mountain tour!

The thing to be aware of under CH law is that if a group of friends goes off into the mountains and they have an accident, the most experianced person will be held criminally responsible.

It happened to a friend of mine, the court case is still open after 4 years, she will know the outcome in September / October.
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Old 06.08.2011, 22:17
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Re: 13year old path finder death, because the group underestimated a mountain tour!

Tough.

Unless of course the leader is an army officer. My very best friend was part of a group of young soldiers killed in an avalanche in the 70s. The avalanche warning was at maximum, and the soldiers refused to go on a 'mission' - but the officer said 'you go or else'.
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Old 06.08.2011, 22:31
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Re: 13year old path finder death, because the group underestimated a mountain tour!

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Tough.

Unless of course the leader is an army officer. My very best friend was part of a group of young soldiers killed in an avalanche in the 70s. The avalanche warning was at maximum, and the soldiers refused to go on a 'mission' - but the officer said 'you go or else'.
Alavalanche warning was 3, off piste on a walking path with patchy snow. A snowboarder did not put his board back on to cross a small patch of snow 28 degrees angle. He slipped on ice fell off the path & died. They were ah few hundred meters from the ski lift they were going to.
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Old 06.08.2011, 22:45
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Re: 13year old path finder death, because the group underestimated a mountain tour!

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Alavalanche warning was 3, off piste on a walking path with patchy snow. A snowboarder did not put his board back on to cross a small patch of snow 28 degrees angle. He slipped on ice fell off the path & died. They were ah few hundred meters from the ski lift they were going to.
Defo NOT the same story sorry. My best friend and another died in an avalanche in an area that had been clearly declared out of bounds and unsafe. Michel Buhler wrote a song for them: 'l'Avalanche'. Not for this thread, so sorry about diversion.

Last edited by Odile; 06.08.2011 at 22:59.
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  #30  
Old 06.08.2011, 22:49
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Re: 13year old path finder death, because the group underestimated a mountain tour!

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Yes.... and NO. A 15 year old should not be in charge of such a dangerous activity- helping and assisting a more experience adult leader yes, but on their own, in a place unsuitable for groups NO NO NO.
Why do we not allow 15 year olds to drive, be brain surgeons, teachers or psychiatrists, or indeed climbing instructors. Because they do not have the maturity, experience and relevant training.

And as a parent I would enquire about safety procedures, activities and the experience and qualifications of leaders before I'd let my kids go.
Nobody
- would trust a 17 years old brain surgeon
- would trust a 17 years old to be active as a psychiatist
- would trust a 17 years old climbing instructor

Second, the safety procedures, the experience and the qualifications of the leaders (certainly above 15 years old) for sure sounded alright, but very often in reality things do not depend on the "leaders". Very often, particularily in the mountains, matters depend on YOU ! And exactly on YOU. If YOU live up to the challenge, alright, if not, well ......
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Old 06.08.2011, 23:15
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Re: 13year old path finder death, because the group underestimated a mountain tour!

Auf Beschreibungen im Internet hat die Tour zur Pointe de Paray den höchsten Schwierigkeitsgrad «T6» auf der Wanderskala. Für eine T6-Tour braucht man «ausgezeichnetes Orientierungsvermögen, ausgereifte Alpinerfahrung und Vertrautheit im Umgang mit alpintechnischen Hilfsmitteln», so die Beschreibung im Internet.

Résumé :The internet description of the Pointe de Paray hike has the highest danger rating T6. For such a tour one needs expert guiding capabilities and proper alpine equipment.

So nowhere for a kid 'leader' with other younger kids, sorry Wolli.
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Old 06.08.2011, 23:36
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Re: 13year old path finder death, because the group underestimated a mountain tour!

For info, here is a link to the Swiss Alpine Club's T1 to T6 scale of difficulties for hikes (only in French or German).


French
http://www.sac-cas.ch/fileadmin/pdf/...andonn_es_.pdf

German
http://www.sac-cas.ch/fileadmin/pdf/...anderskala.pdf
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  #33  
Old 07.08.2011, 01:23
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Re: 13year old path finder death, because the group underestimated a mountain tour!

Accudents happen, teenagers like to push the limits their pre-frontal lobes and executive judgement is out of maturity-synch with the rest of their brains so they tend to be impulsive and sometimes reckless. Which is why on camps we were always taught to follow safety routines and procedures-they were ingrained.

Yesterday we hiked up to a parapet with amazing views and drops. There were two other groups of four fit teenage girls there. Some were playing a game of dare- who could get closest to the edge. Then my daughter copied and I told them all to stop, that they were making my knees buckle. Some teenagers like my daughter have no natural fear of heights or speed and love a dare. I already took my daughter to be X-rayed last week from a cliff-jumping injury. She told me that they were with a certified teenage guide, but he was only there for the rafting and tubing, he left, then they decided to cliff-jump.

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With an immature prefrontal cortex, even if teens understand that something is dangerous, they may still go ahead and engage in the risky behavior. Recognizing the asynchrony of development of the regions of the brain helps us to see adolescent risk-taking in a whole new light. This broadened view of risk-taking and the concept of self-regulation are explored in the next section.......Adolescents are at the peak of their physical strength, resilience, and immune function of their lifecycles. Yet mortality rates for 15 - 24 year olds are more than triple the mortality rates of grade school children. The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) has identified three behaviors contributing to the leading causes for death and illness in adolescents.1

Injury and violence is the leading cause of death in adolescent’s age 10 - 24 years of age. Adolescent deaths are most often a result of motor vehicle crashes- 30%; homicides- 15%, and suicide- 12%.
Alcohol and drug use is a factor in approximately 41% of deaths related to motor vehicle crashes. More youth in the U.S. use alcohol than tobacco or drugs.
Risky sexual behaviors – almost half of the 19 million new sexually transmitted infections diagnosed each year in the U.S. are adolescents 15 - 24 years old. Thirty-nine percent of sexually active high school students report not using a condom during their last sexual intercourse.
Adolescents take risks to test and define themselves. Risk-taking is both beneficial and harmful. It can lead to situations where new skills are learned and new experiences can prepare them for future challenges. Risk-taking serves as a means for discovery about oneself, others and the larger world. The natural and normative proclivity for risk-taking plays a central role in adolescent development, making it a time of both great potential and great vulnerability.

Having knowledge of adolescent brain development can help program staff understand why teens take risks and that risk-taking behavior is a normal and necessary part of adolescence. This knowledge can also assist in developing effective interventions that focus on reducing the harm associated with risk-taking behavior.2
http://www.hhs.gov/opa/familylife/te...ing/index.html

Last edited by hoppy; 07.08.2011 at 01:45.
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  #34  
Old 07.08.2011, 22:26
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Re: 13year old path finder death, because the group underestimated a mountain tour!

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Exactly, you can go hiking alone by 12, 23 or 14 ...and nothing can happen... but when you face situation outside of your experience... then we all read it the news .. thats why as an adult you should teach them and you must know where and what are their plans so you can prepared them or tell them .. hell im going with you.

there is no comparison taking a trail you know, have taken before .. and a completely new trail with not much experience.

and why the double check? ..when i have my kids i want them to outlived me.. thats why
> my brother and me were told about how to proceed outside "civilisation" and with nature by grandmum .... I will never ever forget her advice
> Teenagers will always attempt to explore "new trails" even if it may not be wise really
> "we" DID outlive parents and teachers, and if my brother did not it was due to cancer, the only thing the adventourous person did NOT choose ..... yes, after I had participated in burying MY godfather, the one of my brother a year later sadly stated "YOU and your godfather did it the way as it should be, that the godson buries the godfather ....
> my "comrades" and me generally happily survived our "undertakings". I do not know about a single fatality but of course about wet clothes, minor wounds, and badly damaged equipment.
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Old 07.08.2011, 22:36
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Re: 13year old path finder death, because the group underestimated a mountain tour!

Yes, and so did I. I broke many bones and learnt a lot along the way. My dad taught me all about survival skills, what to eat in the wild, how to construct and igloo and test snow for avalanche risks, how to start a fire and collect water, etc. No regrets either- but what you do in your personal life is very different to an activity organised by a school of club- as they do take on responsibility for basic safety. Accidents happen of course- but many accidents can be avoided with some careful planning and sensible training. Training for Scout leaders only starts at 17 for very good reasons. This was an official T6 hiking route, the most dangerous- so an un-trained 15 year old should not be in charge of several other younger kids. Punkt Schluss, sorry.
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Old 07.08.2011, 23:01
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Re: 13year old path finder death, because the group underestimated a mountain tour!

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Auf Beschreibungen im Internet hat die Tour zur Pointe de Paray den höchsten Schwierigkeitsgrad «T6» auf der Wanderskala. Für eine T6-Tour braucht man «ausgezeichnetes Orientierungsvermögen, ausgereifte Alpinerfahrung und Vertrautheit im Umgang mit alpintechnischen Hilfsmitteln», so die Beschreibung im Internet.

Résumé :The internet description of the Pointe de Paray hike has the highest danger rating T6. For such a tour one needs expert guiding capabilities and proper alpine equipment.

So nowhere for a kid 'leader' with other younger kids, sorry Wolli.
So sorry but whenever I had, all the time, an
- ausgezeichnetes Orientierungsvermögen
I never had any kind of
- Alpin-Erfahrung
- Vertrautheit mit alpintechnischen Hilfsmitteln
and generally detested the mountains, I often got entrusted some such deciscion-making. And while never liking the position, generally succeeded. BUT I would have refused/declined to take over such a crazy thing they started !!!

Bad for the chap in charge ! But it simply was foolhardy and beyond any common sense

----

clearly to the contrary. We, two friends and me, were near Brunnen/SZ, and the two other decided to go, by bycicle ! , accross the Sattel, and I absolutely refused. I went to Brunnen, and then cycled back the normal way. I had returned home for a while, when the grandmom of my schoolfriend called up as he had not yet returned. I then "confessed" that I was not really surprised but the normally extremely anxious M.... had opted for that extremely "heavy" alpine routing. Next day, the two had to admit that they needed two hours more than expected, or roughly the time I had told them to take into account. NEVER underestimate those mountains !
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Old 07.08.2011, 23:47
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Re: 13year old path finder death, because the group underestimated a mountain tour!

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> my brother and me were told about how to proceed outside "civilisation" and with nature by grandmum .... I will never ever forget her advice
> Teenagers will always attempt to explore "new trails" even if it may not be wise really
> "we" DID outlive parents and teachers, and if my brother did not it was due to cancer, the only thing the adventourous person did NOT choose ..... yes, after I had participated in burying MY godfather, the one of my brother a year later sadly stated "YOU and your godfather did it the way as it should be, that the godson buries the godfather ....
> my "comrades" and me generally happily survived our "undertakings". I do not know about a single fatality but of course about wet clothes, minor wounds, and badly damaged equipment.
Sorry to read about your brother

I know i done stupid things, i know i would do stupid things...and as a teenager exploring new trails and doing new things is normal..

however if you pay attention and learn (from parents, scouts or teachers) you know when something is big enough for your capacities and know where to say "no" or "enough" ...or even when to ask for help

I feel sorry for the young dude who was in charge and the other kid.
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Old 08.08.2011, 00:03
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Re: 13year old path finder death, because the group underestimated a mountain tour!

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I feel sorry for the young dude who was in charge and the other kid.
Me too. Now a 15 yr old kid has to live with this responsibility he shouldn't have never been allowed to have. I can't imagine T6 without a pro team to cater to not so pro kids, fully equipped. I was at T4 and it was hell, risky, ok if nothing happens, but too many variables going wrong was a very possible scenario, slides, storms, cliffs, etc. One never knows with mountains. Dad always said, if you don't know, take a dog with you. Only dogs can orientate themselves in storms. But we only have T2 back home, breeze.
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