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  #21  
Old 12.08.2011, 16:35
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Re: Switzerland, The Liberal Utopia

In summary there are left wing libertarians, right wing libertarians (aka loonies) and even liberal libertarians.
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  #22  
Old 12.08.2011, 16:36
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Re: Switzerland, The Liberal Utopia

Hold on...wasn't this thread about liberals and not libertarians?
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  #23  
Old 12.08.2011, 16:57
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Re: Switzerland, The Liberal Utopia

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Hold on...wasn't this thread about liberals and not libertarians?
I blame E. Neubauten.
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  #24  
Old 12.08.2011, 17:05
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Re: Switzerland, The Liberal Utopia

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Many thanks for telling me what I think -- for I certainly didn't express any of the thoughts you've listed above, anywhere on this thread (or elsewhere). I think that underscores the distasteful aspect of libertarianism: self-professed libertarians seem to exude a holier-than-thou aura and believe they are entitled to inform the world of the error of its ways (anything not congruent with their own beliefs being an error, of course).
Firstly, allow me to say it was really a pleasure.

Secondly, I did not accuse you of expressing those thoughts. I accused you of thinking them. Do you have any proof that you were not?

Thirdly, "self-professed libertarian" seems to me to be a bit redundant. Nowhere does it say that we have to be accused, card holding or members. I believe self-professed is most probably the best way to go. This especially in the light that "You ... you ... you libertarian!!!" in no country that I know of is considdered to be a mortal insult.

Fourthly, if you want to see me as holy, that is your choice. All that I would ask is that you put that down on your tax forms so that I can make some cash from it. I don't think I am better or worse than anybody else. I just don't want to be lumped in with them all. Do you mind?

Fifthly, I really don't see anything wrong with expressing a criticism about how things are done. Freedom of speech is still good to go here in Switzerland, no? Change only happens when we criticise something to make it better, no?

Sixthly, anything that is logically incorrect is in error. Anything else is opinion until proven fact (and last time I checked they were having a hard time proving fact to be fact). That is as close to a fact as I am going to go.

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No, it's sequitur, in fact; it follows your statement on libertarians' attitudes to party politics. It also directly relates that statement to the involvement of Swiss citizens in political activities, which is highly relevant to the OP.
Yes it is non sequitur. Just because it follows my statement and relates to a previous statement does not demonstrate or nay even imply a logically staged statement. Or does it?

Let me break it down for you:

Quote:
If libertarians aren't interested in party politics
Nope, I said that being a libertarian was separate to most libertarians' (that I know) views or non-views on politics. You read the vegetarian/democrat point?

Quote:
, then based on the number of party-backed referenda and the enthusiastic participation in them, I seriously doubt there are many libertarians in Switzerland.
Here I agree with you. I have not met a lot of libertarians in Switzerland. On the other hand though, I am not sure how that follows from the previous part of the statement. The second does not relate to the other in a demonstratable way.

Quote:
Conclusion: surprisingly, Switzerland isn't liberal after all.
I am not sure that the liberals would like you calling them libertarians any more than the libertarians would like you calling them liberals. I am also not sure I am ready (experience or information) to be able to label Switzerland either liberal or libertarian.

Quote:
Well, yes, a little, as I've outlined above.
I apologise (albeit after the fact) and in my defence would only offer up a reminder to read the signature on my post. I would also raise the unfortunate character flaw that I have in the over use of sarcasm to the court before judgement is passed.

I really am sorry if you took offense. I don’t take offense but like to get a little blood flowing through my brain occasionally. I have enjoyed and hope to continue enjoying these conversations/debates/mud-slinging matches if you can try and see beyond taking me seriously.
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Old 12.08.2011, 17:06
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Re: Switzerland, The Liberal Utopia

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Hold on...wasn't this thread about liberals and not libertarians?
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
Why do I bother with such a long crafted answer.
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  #26  
Old 12.08.2011, 18:03
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Re: Switzerland, The Liberal Utopia

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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
Why do I bother with such a long crafted answer.
And remember - the clue is in the question - "Switzerland, The BLANK Utopia"

Attachment 30818

"Switzerland, The BLANK Utopia"


Your answer was:

Attachment 30819

So no Chequebook And Pen for you, I'm afraid
Give him a big hand, everybody

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  #27  
Old 12.08.2011, 18:10
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Re: Switzerland, The Liberal Utopia

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Give him a big hand, everybody
Bastard!!!
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  #28  
Old 12.08.2011, 18:25
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Re: Switzerland, The Liberal Utopia

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Firstly, allow me to say it was really a pleasure.

Secondly, I did not accuse you of expressing those thoughts. I accused you of thinking them. Do you have any proof that you were not?

Thirdly, "self-professed libertarian" seems to me to be a bit redundant. Nowhere does it say that we have to be accused, card holding or members. I believe self-professed is most probably the best way to go. This especially in the light that "You ... you ... you libertarian!!!" in no country that I know of is considdered to be a mortal insult.

Fourthly, if you want to see me as holy, that is your choice. All that I would ask is that you put that down on your tax forms so that I can make some cash from it. I don't think I am better or worse than anybody else. I just don't want to be lumped in with them all. Do you mind?

Fifthly, I really don't see anything wrong with expressing a criticism about how things are done. Freedom of speech is still good to go here in Switzerland, no? Change only happens when we criticise something to make it better, no?

Sixthly, anything that is logically incorrect is in error. Anything else is opinion until proven fact (and last time I checked they were having a hard time proving fact to be fact). That is as close to a fact as I am going to go.



Yes it is non sequitur. Just because it follows my statement and relates to a previous statement does not demonstrate or nay even imply a logically staged statement. Or does it?

Let me break it down for you:



Nope, I said that being a libertarian was separate to most libertarians' (that I know) views or non-views on politics. You read the vegetarian/democrat point?



Here I agree with you. I have not met a lot of libertarians in Switzerland. On the other hand though, I am not sure how that follows from the previous part of the statement. The second does not relate to the other in a demonstratable way.


I am not sure that the liberals would like you calling them libertarians any more than the libertarians would like you calling them liberals. I am also not sure I am ready (experience or information) to be able to label Switzerland either liberal or libertarian.


I apologise (albeit after the fact) and in my defence would only offer up a reminder to read the signature on my post. I would also raise the unfortunate character flaw that I have in the over use of sarcasm to the court before judgement is passed.

I really am sorry if you took offense. I don’t take offense but like to get a little blood flowing through my brain occasionally. I have enjoyed and hope to continue enjoying these conversations/debates/mud-slinging matches if you can try and see beyond taking me seriously.
tl;dr. Except for this bit:

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I ... like to get a little blood flowing through my brain occasionally.
Crikey. For your own health, I suggest you stop asap. Have you consulted a neurologist?
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  #29  
Old 12.08.2011, 18:31
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Re: Switzerland, The Liberal Utopia

So, hauling the thread a-kickin and a-screamin back to some semblence of being remotely on-topic:

Given the (sometimes-rather-harsh) realities of coming to, staying in and generally maintaining one's sanity in dear, sweet CH - where are all these notions of woolly liberalism and unconstrained idyll coming from?

In contrast, long before I washed up on CH's shores, I knew already the awe-inspiring reputation of "Swiss Bureaucracy", and knew that that translated to "Tight Ship" rather than "Laissez Faire". I wasn't surprised or disappointed on arrival, it all seemed pretty much as one would expect from a country whose key defining characteristic (or at least, that I was aware of) was and is paper-pushing.

So where are people really getting all these liberal, no-tax, Dodge City, anything-goes fantasy notions from?
  • Urban legend?
  • Heidi books?
  • Wikipedia?
  • Travel guides written by people who've never visited?
  • MySwitzerland.com?
  • CS and UBS adverts?
  • Back of a packet of Alpen?
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  #30  
Old 12.08.2011, 18:42
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Re: Switzerland, The Liberal Utopia

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tl;dr. Except for this bit:
Sorry I really don't understand.
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Crikey. For your own health, I suggest you stop asap. Have you consulted a neurologist?
Crikey are you from Oz mate?
I have consulted the neurologist, the psychologist, the psychiatrist, the spiritualist and the priest.
They said; can't figure out the problem but it is broken, can't figure out the problem now I am broken too, no more drugs for you, more drugs for you and lastly but not least, heaven does not want you and hell is scared you will take over.

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  #31  
Old 12.08.2011, 18:49
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Re: Switzerland, The Liberal Utopia

I'm looking forward to seeing you and the Missus too.

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I don't recall complaining about sour-faced locals, but I do congratulate you on your prescience
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  #32  
Old 12.08.2011, 18:52
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Re: Switzerland, The Liberal Utopia

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So where are people really getting all these liberal, no-tax, Dodge City, anything-goes fantasy notions from?
  • I think people equate low tax to no tax too often.
  • I think people fail to understand "highland" mentality a lot of the time and the rigours that it can impose on life.
  • I think that the popular press likes to make Switzerland look like this Dodge City style thing to show how wrong it is of the Swiss to protect those criminals and un-ethical people that keep all of their misbegotten gains here. That strategy backfired on them now Switzerland has this bit of a "gangster" reputation....laughable.
  • I think the anything goes point is also about the horror of having little prosecution of drug possession or use, no condemnation of prostitution, etc. The Swiss seem to be perfectly happy to not defend the fact that they control the society in other ways to ensure that those things can exist but pose less of a threat to society.
  • People like to talk about the place, even if they know little about it. Not always a lot of Swiss around to defend the whole thing internationally. You know that country where they allow euthanasia....etc. etc.
  • I think if you don't live here for a long time it just confuses the hell out of you. I know I am still at a loss how they function.
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Old 12.08.2011, 19:01
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Re: Switzerland, The Liberal Utopia

I think liberal might have a different meaning inside the US than outside. Hence the confusion.

Liberals = socialists in the US. But in the US, socialism is considered such a bad thing, no one (or very few) really uses that term to define their politics. Liberal in Europe has the more traditional meaning which is closer to American libertarianism in many ways.
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  #34  
Old 12.08.2011, 19:02
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Re: Switzerland, The Liberal Utopia

I have no idea where are people getting this ridiculous idea, I though the Netherlands was seen that way not CH!
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Old 12.08.2011, 19:06
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Re: Switzerland, The Liberal Utopia

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Liberals = socialists in the US.


That is
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Old 12.08.2011, 19:09
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Re: Switzerland, The Liberal Utopia

Ask Hidi and Jeckel
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Old 12.08.2011, 19:10
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Re: Switzerland, The Liberal Utopia

- at myself so nobody gets offended....he-he.

I like the following two:
Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom") is the belief in the importance of liberty and equal rights.
Libertarianism is the political philosophy that holds individual liberty as the organizing principle of society.

Two quite different things. The one is a political system while the other is a social system.
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Old 12.08.2011, 19:15
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Re: Switzerland, The Liberal Utopia

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- at myself so nobody gets offended....he-he.

I like the following two:
Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom") is the belief in the importance of liberty and equal rights.
Libertarianism is the political philosophy that holds individual liberty as the organizing principle of society.

Two quite different things. The one is a political system while the other is a social system.
I thought this was a useful read on how liberalism in the US is slightly different from elsewhere (with its bend towards government provided social programs)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal..._United_States
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  #39  
Old 12.08.2011, 19:20
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Re: Switzerland, The Liberal Utopia

Interesting first paragraph.....if this is the case, have Switzerland not made remarkable progress on all these things already? So perhaps Switzerland from a US definition is the most liberal country in the world?
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Liberalism in the United States is a broad political philosophy centered on the unalienable rights of the individual. The fundamental liberal ideals of freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion for all belief systems, and the separation of church and state, right to due process and equality under the law are widely accepted as a common foundation across the spectrum of liberal thought. The main focus of modern liberalism in the United States includes issues such as voting rights for all adult citizens, equal rights, protection of the environment, and the provision by the government of social services, such as: equal education opportunities, access to health care, transportation infrastructure, basic food for the hungry and basic shelter for the homeless.
Saying that though.....Utopia on the other hand sounds like the most boring place in the universe to live in.
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Old 12.08.2011, 19:23
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Re: Switzerland, The Liberal Utopia

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Interesting first paragraph.....if this is the case, have Switzerland not made remarkable progress on all these things already? So perhaps Switzerland from a US definition is the most liberal country in the world?


Saying that though.....Utopia on the other hand sounds like the most boring place in the universe to live in.

Hence why American libertarians think very highly of it. Though, they probably wouldn't like the environmental rules and some of the social safety nets so much. And definitely would not like the watchfullness of the typical Swiss of what their neighbors are doing.
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