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Old 15.10.2007, 10:38
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Re: What's happening in/to this country?

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Don't understand why it takes 12 years to get naturalised in switzerland. That's the toughest rules in Europe (possibly even the world), especially considering it has to go through 3 bureacratic levels (commune, canton, federal), and is very expensive.
How expensive exactly?
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Old 15.10.2007, 15:01
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Re: What's happening in/to this country?

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These rules in themselves aren't racist, it's their non-uniform application that can be criticised for a racist attitude.

Still, it's funny how a citizen of North America or Europe only waits 5 years here for his or her C-permit, whereas every other person has to wait minimum 10 years. Everywhere else in the EU it's the same amount of waiting time towards permanent residency no matter what nationality you are. (I can't imagine this having to do anything with Swiss-American bilateral agreements?? )
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Old 15.10.2007, 15:03
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Re: What's happening in/to this country?

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How expensive exactly?
Expensive enough to dissaude at least 20% of the resident population from even trying.
  #84  
Old 15.10.2007, 15:21
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Re: What's happening in/to this country?

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Expensive enough to dissaude at least 20% of the resident population from even trying.
Do you have actual facts and amounts to back up your claim?
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Old 15.10.2007, 15:42
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Re: [chainsaw attack] What's happening in/to this country?

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I came across this forum as part of some research I've been doing prior to visiting Switzerland again.

I live in the USA (San Francisco, CA) and visited Zurich in 2001 - I had a fantastic time. I thought the people were great and the city was beautiful albeit a bit pricey.

From all the comments/complaints I've been reading on this forum it seems the country's changed quite a bit since then and I'm afraid/hesitant (as an Asian person) to visit here. Why should I spend my hard earned money at a place where foreigners seem to be not welcome?

Now, I read this in today's Washington Post newspaper, which pretty much seals the deal for me (not to visit):

ZURICH -- At 1:30 a.m., Antonio da Costa heard a knock at the back entrance of the McDonald's restaurant where he worked as a janitor after closing hours.

He opened the door, he recalled in an interview. There stood two men, each gripping a chain saw. One yanked the cord on his saw, stepped toward da Costa and shouted above the roaring machine: "We don't need Africans in our country. We're here to kill you!"

The two masked assailants cornered da Costa and began raking him with the whirring chain-saw blades. They slashed one arm to the bone, nearly sliced off his left thumb and hacked his face, neck and chest, the 37-year-old Angolan said, his voice quavering as he recounted the May 1 attack.

The gruesome assault in a suburb of Zurich -- consistently ranked in international surveys as one of the world's most livable cities -- dramatized the surge in racism and xenophobia as Switzerland confronts its most difficult social transformation in modern times.

More here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews

Peace

I read about this story somewhere, but it wouldn't have been in German because I can't read German; just trying to point out this isn't the first time I've read it.

As a foreigner living in Switzerland (coming from Canada), I think that the "Black Sheep" campaign posters are incredibly offensive and think that immigration obviously is an issue for some in Switzerland but there doesn't seem to be way to manage it diplomatically.

With all of that said, I think to base your decision to visit Zurich according to one article is a little judgemental. I'm not even Swiss, I'm married to a Swiss, but because I love living here, I feel I need to stick up for my newfound home. Take a look at what's going on in the world today - take a look at what has happened in the US lately and tell me if it's fair to say "I'll never visit there because of this and that happening"....another school shooting with multiple deaths.....a 3 year old being raped on tape .....parents abducting their kid trying to force and abortion on her...see where I am going here?

In the long run, the decision to visit again is yours, but if everyone had that kind of attitude....well I don't know where we'd be, but it wouldn't be a good place.

*Steps off of soapbox*
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Old 15.10.2007, 15:43
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Re: [chainsaw attack] What's happening in/to this country?

If naturalisation was simplified it is doubtful if it would make much difference to the numbers. The foreign population figure of 1,670,191 includes 442,407 (30%) persons who are here in short term permits and 44,869 asylum seekers.

C permits account for 1,081,179* (70%) but these include large groups of people who are not inclined, for one reason or another, to want to take Swiss nationality. For example, the Italians and Portuguese account for 465,161 and they tend to come to Switzerland for economic reasons and often return to their country when they retire. Germans (172,580) tend to come here for tax reasons and if they take another nationality they lose their German one.

There are many people quite happy to reside here on a C permit and see no advantage in obtaining a Swiss passport. In fact in can be a disadvantage to have one in some cases. For example, a Brit living here on a C permit can own property and even vote at commune and cantonal level, which accounts for the largest proportion of their tax liability, and stand for election (depending on canton). They can also avoid UK Inheritance tax when they die but by not having a Swiss passport they can also avoid Swiss inheritance rules. A win/win situation ! Another example is a young male who chooses not to obtain Swiss nationality and thus avoid military service. The only advantage naturalisation offers over a C permit is to be able to vote at federal level but the downside is the liability for military service.

A simplified naturalisation system may increase the number of applicants but I doubt that it would be a significant number. Living here on a C permit is very comfortable !
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Old 16.10.2007, 01:57
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Re: [chainsaw attack] What's happening in/to this country?

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Germans (172,580) tend to come here for tax reasons and if they take another nationality they lose their German one.
No longer true. See here.

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A simplified naturalisation system may increase the number of applicants but I doubt that it would be a significant number.
This is precisely the reason the process should be simplified. The numbers affected are low but from the statistics are those most likely to suffer discrimination and exclusion by not holding citizenship. This is particularly unfair on the children of first generation immigrants who themselves are totally integrated and know no other home, but are separated out as different by their lack of Swiss papers.
  #88  
Old 16.10.2007, 04:42
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Re: [chainsaw attack] What's happening in/to this country?

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Living here on a C permit is very comfortable !

The whole point of what i was saying is that getting the C-permit for switzerland is the hardest in europe, probably hardest in the world. In general it's 10 years of uninterrupted residence in switzerland, and the years you spend doing your masters, PhD, or postdoc don't even count (unless you're north american or european, but that's beside the point). I do agree with you however that a c-permit is sufficient to live in switzerland.

And by the way, the reason why switzerland has such a high percentage of foreigners is because of its over-strict naturalisation rules which deter foreigners for applying for swiss nationality. Many of the "foreign" population are actually swiss-born and bred. In just about any other country these born-and-bred population would have been naturalised, but not in switzerland, therefore resulting in an unusually high "foreign" population.
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Old 16.10.2007, 05:16
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Re: What's happening in/to this country?

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Do you have actual facts and amounts to back up your claim?
Why yes, of couse. Ever heard of a search engine before? Or do you need everyone to hold your hand for you wherever you go?


Of course, it depends on the municipality and canton, but Geneva itself is ridiculously expensive (minimum 850 chf, but can go up to 2'750 chf. No refunds if rejected):

(From the site http://www.cagi.ch/en/Naturalisation_Suisse.htm)

Fees and taxes (elements of taxation)

There is a detailed document that is entitled « Frais de procédure et barčme de taxation », published by the competent cantonal service (valid for candidates over 25 years of age).

Various elements and parameters are taken into consideration :
  • expense of procedure (Cantonal, federal and fees of the States Chancellery) : global minimum cost of around : a) CHF550.- for a foreigner who is over 25 years of age and, b) CHF300.-for a foreigner who is under 25 years of age.
  • Tax: minimum : Sfr.300.-- maximum Sfr. 2'200.-- (the scale is progressive, the tax is calculated according to your yearly income being Sfr. 500.-- for Sfr.40'000.--)deductions can be granted in some cases.

------------------------------------------

Compare that with other developed nations, and you'll see why people are deterred from applying for swiss nationality:

In Canada, the application fee for citizenship is the equivalent of about US$85.
o In New Zealand, the cost is about US$321 for an adult and US$160 for children under 16.
o In Australia, the application fee for naturalization is about US$93.
o In Germany, citizenship fees are US$330 for adults and US$66 for children who are applying with their parents.

  #90  
Old 16.10.2007, 10:53
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Re: What's happening in/to this country?

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Of course, it depends on the municipality and canton, but Geneva itself is ridiculously expensive (minimum 850 chf, but can go up to 2'750 chf. No refunds if rejected):

*snip*

------------------------------------------

Compare that with other developed nations, and you'll see why people are deterred from applying for swiss nationality:

In Canada, the application fee for citizenship is the equivalent of about US$85.
o In New Zealand, the cost is about US$321 for an adult and US$160 for children under 16.
o In Australia, the application fee for naturalization is about US$93.
o In Germany, citizenship fees are US$330 for adults and US$66 for children who are applying with their parents.
You forgot all the costs that you need to pay prior to that.

I don't know about Canada, NZ or Germany, but in Australia you need to have a permanent residence visa before considering citizenship, and lived in Australia for number of years. A permanent residence visa costs around $2000AU (2100CHF / $1800US). These costs also need to be considered when comparing countries.

BTW, haven't we drifted away from the point of this thread?
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Old 16.10.2007, 12:32
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Re: [chainsaw attack] What's happening in/to this country?

germans do not come here for tax reasons only.
i came here because my Gf is swiss. and i think 40-60% came for the same reason. other are/were sent over from their company (permanent or a longer/shorter period) a smaller percentage is coming for job reasons, especially people from service department (hotel, public health care etc.)

i will not lose my german passport or status, i can have both if i want.

concerning the black sheep campaign: people should think twice because never the svp meant the high potential expats with a good, above average income that pay their taxes, dont commit a crime (more or less) and do spent heir money in switzerland. and that is roughly the same with every other country where on the first sight it seems foreigners are blocked out to come in. i do not welcome the svp campaign, because who ever they label as black sheep, it is narrow minded, racist etc.

i was handed out a flyer the other day with their program and mostly svp rejects the balkan people, "cheap" working class from the eastern block (czech, polish, rumanians) who are blamed to take over the swiss peoples jobs (nonsense, unemployment rate is 2.6% or something) and they want to reject muslim religion ( dont let them build up minarettes etc.)

the svp never can set up all the points they speak about. it would lead the country in times of progressing globalization directly into isolation.
in terms of business -> jobs, they need to have a open country more or less. the bilateral agreements can never be turned down in total even the swiss government has set up some paragraphs to change the free choice of work and place of living, amount of permits for eu/efta citizens etc.

and, most of all, the social, green and left voters are in the majority, i think...
  #92  
Old 16.10.2007, 12:40
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Re: What's happening in/to this country?

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Why yes, of couse. Ever heard of a search engine before? Or do you need everyone to hold your hand for you wherever you go?

Of course, it depends on the municipality and canton, but Geneva itself is ridiculously expensive (minimum 850 chf, but can go up to 2'750 chf. No refunds if rejected):
Oh, boo hoo. 850 CHF, expensive? Get a life.
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Old 16.10.2007, 12:46
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Re: What's happening in/to this country?

Just to add: paying 850CHF is to get a life and is hardly expensive...
dave

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Oh, boo hoo. 850 CHF, expensive? Get a life.
  #94  
Old 16.10.2007, 13:20
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Re: [chainsaw attack] What's happening in/to this country?

In that case, can I have CHF 850?
Pleeeease....
G'wan...
  #95  
Old 16.10.2007, 13:24
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Re: [chainsaw attack] What's happening in/to this country?

no, but only because you'll blow it all on something like a new bird scope.

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In that case, can I have CHF 850?
Pleeeease....
G'wan...

Last edited by Bartholemew; 16.10.2007 at 13:55. Reason: typo fix: meant on, not one
  #96  
Old 16.10.2007, 13:47
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Re: [chainsaw attack] What's happening in/to this country?

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no, but only because you'll blow it all one something like a new bird scope.
I'm scared that you might be psychic...
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Old 17.10.2007, 01:01
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Re: What's happening in/to this country?

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Oh, boo hoo. 850 CHF, expensive? Get a life.

Compared to the other countries listed in the post, bozo. You really need to improve your reading skills a bit.
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  #98  
Old 17.10.2007, 10:01
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Re: What's happening in/to this country?

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Compared to the other countries listed in the post, bozo. You really need to improve your reading skills a bit.

Umm. Okay. I am starting from the premise that someone who wants another nationality does not start with a market study of the price of accession to all nationalities that are out there - but never mind. I probably live in this dream world where you cannot move around in the 10 countries you have short-listed on the basis of naturalisation procedure costs in order to see whether you would actually like to live there.

The truth is you do not care about the other prices, since nationality is not exactly a fungible commodity you could purchase using price discrimination as a criteria. So if I were you, I'd look at how those 850 CHF compare to a typical Swiss budget in general and other discretionary purchases in particular. But hey, you're the scientist, I'm sure you took this into account.

Accession to one or another nationality is in general a byproduct of a chain of more or less random events, rather than a goal in life. You do not apply for nationality just because it's cheap (or maybe you do). But if you still think it's only the 850 to 2500 francs that have kept thousands of eligible foreigners from applying for nationality, I can lend you an extra set of oars to help you sailing up the Nile.

You probably would have had a limited point if you mentioned the previous fee schedule that expired in 2005. The mere fact that sofar, despite the change in fees, there has not yet been any significant upswing in applications for naturalisation probably supports my point. Of course, it does take a little bit more than Google.
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Old 25.10.2007, 13:49
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Re: [chainsaw attack] What's happening in/to this country?

In this week's edition, the rightist, but sometimes also investigative and open-minded magazine Die Weltwoche accuses international media of sloppy and sensationalistic journalism in the case of the chainsaw attack.

Die Weltwoche criticises that the Washington Post did not mention in their long article that the investigating authorities consider a racist motive unlikely. The newspaper had recieved a letter with said statement after it had requestet one.

The police told Die Weltwoche that they consider a gang or debt related crime more feasible. Generally they believe the victim's report of the sequence of events. But the fact that the victim unlocked the door for his attackers leads them to the conclusion that they probably knew each other. The video footage is too bad to identify the skin color of the attackers.

Acquaintanceships of Mister Da Costa repeatedly denied Die Weltwoche an interview when the magazine called his appartment.

The article ends with a reconstruction of which persons probably pointed international media to this crime and a general accusation of international media who misreport the extensiveness of racism in Switzerland and xenophobia's role as an election campaign factor.

Subscribers of Die Weltwoche can read the article online here. Kiosks sell the magazine until next Wednesday.


I'm more convinced of the police's opinion. Why does Da Costa shy away from an interview with an (admittedly: rightist) magazine after talking to Swedish and American journalists? Also I wonder if The Washington Post will react to this conflictive narration of the crime. Like everywhere, there's xenophobia in Switzerland, but when "tip of the iceberg" stories go around, it's worth checking the details to get a good picture.
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Old 18.11.2007, 17:41
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Re: [chainsaw attack] What's happening in/to this country?

thanks for the summary, Nathu. I saw the Weltwoche story too, but was wasn't sure what to think because the paper is loose cannon these days - doing hit jobs on anything Blocher and Co aren't in favor of.

I wish the Tagi or one of the other, more earnest publications would do a follow-up on da Costa. I realize domestic and foreign media's take on things can be dramatically different, but I don't think I've ever seen anything as confusing as this.

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In this week's edition, the rightist, but sometimes also investigative and open-minded magazine Die Weltwoche accuses international media of sloppy and sensationalistic journalism in the case of the chainsaw attack.

Die Weltwoche criticises that the Washington Post did not mention in their long article that the investigating authorities consider a racist motive unlikely. The newspaper had recieved a letter with said statement after it had requestet one.

The police told Die Weltwoche that they consider a gang or debt related crime more feasible. Generally they believe the victim's report of the sequence of events. But the fact that the victim unlocked the door for his attackers leads them to the conclusion that they probably knew each other. The video footage is too bad to identify the skin color of the attackers.

Acquaintanceships of Mister Da Costa repeatedly denied Die Weltwoche an interview when the magazine called his appartment.

The article ends with a reconstruction of which persons probably pointed international media to this crime and a general accusation of international media who misreport the extensiveness of racism in Switzerland and xenophobia's role as an election campaign factor.

Subscribers of Die Weltwoche can read the article online here. Kiosks sell the magazine until next Wednesday.


I'm more convinced of the police's opinion. Why does Da Costa shy away from an interview with an (admittedly: rightist) magazine after talking to Swedish and American journalists? Also I wonder if The Washington Post will react to this conflictive narration of the crime. Like everywhere, there's xenophobia in Switzerland, but when "tip of the iceberg" stories go around, it's worth checking the details to get a good picture.
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