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Old 02.03.2012, 22:33
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Comparing Switzerland to Finland

Short experiences that I have had:

1. Switzerland has the direct democracy
2, In Switzerland you are paid for the job you are doing
3. You have personal responsibility to make your family living
4. In Switzerland things are done per need instead of per imagined need
5. In Switzerland you have cantons, and boroughs
6. In Switzerland you have to make it instead of hoping that someone makes it for you
7. In Switzerland you are not welcome if you are not giving something to community
8. In Switzerland you have to flush toilet between 9:00-20:00

I am pretty sure that first three ones are the main reasons that people from scandinavia are moving to Switzerland. And now let`s list the system in Finland:

1. We have the election system that allows any party to win nevertheless people have just voted for some people from some party, also the decions made are not in line what is promised, instead something else usually
2. In Finland you are paid for your job just as much you need for coming the next day to do the same
3. In Finland you can most likely get your income more reliably when you are not doing anything at all
4. I sat on a train, it was not the latest one, but it did the job, instead of millions of payments to get the latest version
5. In Finland there is some kind of cult trying to get the whole nation under a one template, well that will not work out if we are talking about saving some money
6. In Finland it is just better to wait until someone gets the same idea you have thinking about, otherwise you will be paying a lot of money on a project which is not going to anywhere
7. This probably concerns any nation located in globe
8. In Finland we are open on peoples lives, but no messing around 4:00-7:00

Hopefully this start message gives flames to other here at the forum :P
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Old 02.03.2012, 22:41
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Re: Comparing Switzerland to Finland

Possibly related threads:

How would you classify Switzerland? Socialist (Scandinavian), Liberal, or both?

Why the Swiss don't like "the welfare state"?

Comparisons - Denmark/Switzerland?

Living in CH versus SE, DK and the NL - your views please
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Old 02.03.2012, 22:54
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Re: Comparing Switzerland to Finland

You can drink more cheaply here than in Finland but...that's about it. And, since you can't vote, the whole democracy stuff doesn't matter.

As an American with a Finnish OH who has lived for a number of years in both Sweden and Finland....let's just say that unless you're incredibly conservative (and rather well off), that there's not a lot of comparing to be done. Sure, there's more light this time of year, but unless you live on the top of the hills, most of the year it's as gloomy os Oulu.

If you're looking to do something new or something outside the general EU norm, this ain't the place as it's all about the 1950s at 2050s prices.
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Old 02.03.2012, 23:01
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Re: Comparing Switzerland to Finland

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You can drink more cheaply here than in Finland but...that's about it. And, since you can't vote, the whole democracy stuff doesn't matter.

As an American with a Finnish OH who has lived for a number of years in both Sweden and Finland....let's just say that unless you're incredibly conservative (and rather well off), that there's not a lot of comparing to be done. Sure, there's more light this time of year, but unless you live on the top of the hills, most of the year it's as gloomy os Oulu.

If you're looking to do something new or something outside the general EU norm, this ain't the place as it's all about the 1950s at 2050s prices.
In Switzerland you are swiss
in Finland your Finish
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Old 02.03.2012, 23:03
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Re: Comparing Switzerland to Finland

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In Switzerland you are swiss
in Finland your Finish
Ohohoho...I've never heard that joke before! FINNISH HIM!
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Old 02.03.2012, 23:31
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Re: Comparing Switzerland to Finland

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since you can't vote, the whole democracy stuff doesn't matter.
And you are basing that on what fact? I am completely sure that when most of the people can even have a choice they will use it. I am sure that when people gets the choice to vote on something they will do wisely as it is based on more people than just 5.

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If you're looking to do something new or something outside the general EU norm, this ain't the place as it's all about the 1950s at 2050s prices.
This pretty much settled that you have never been at Finland. At Switzerland the prizes are just equal in any of the consumed stuff unless you are going to eat outside when it doubles, so I am not undersigning your findings.
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Old 02.03.2012, 23:39
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Re: Comparing Switzerland to Finland

Hmm.. Actually if this thread was about to move why not to "off topic"? This is not about daily life I was just writing down the facts why Finnish people are willing to move to Switzerland. Most of the opinions are mostly related to politics...
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Old 03.03.2012, 09:49
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Re: Comparing Switzerland to Finland

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And you are basing that on what fact? I am completely sure that when most of the people can even have a choice they will use it. I am sure that when people gets the choice to vote on something they will do wisely as it is based on more people than just 5.
Well, let's put it this way, if the only thing you can do is observe the SVP voting out the foreigners, do you still feel empowered? Politicians are douches no matter the country.

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This pretty much settled that you have never been at Finland. At Switzerland the prizes are just equal in any of the consumed stuff unless you are going to eat outside when it doubles, so I am not undersigning your findings.
Lived there for a number of years, married to a native. I will admit to having a difficult time parsing that paragraph though. Yes, taxes are high in Finland and, what you take home is less, but this is the most expensive place to live - also add to pile that you'd have few employment rights, little safety net, pay out the wazoo for insurances but be terrified to call for an ambulance/paramedics unless you were dying as they're expensive and not covered by insurance, no dental insurance as it's too expensive, etc., etc. 'Expensive' is more than just how much money you take home at the end of the month....
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Old 03.03.2012, 10:22
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Re: Comparing Switzerland to Finland

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And you are basing that on what fact? I am completely sure that when most of the people can even have a choice they will use it. I am sure that when people gets the choice to vote on something they will do wisely as it is based on more people than just 5.

This pretty much settled that you have never been at Finland. At Switzerland the prizes are just equal in any of the consumed stuff unless you are going to eat outside when it doubles, so I am not undersigning your findings.
"Poptart" is basing the "democracy stuff ...." on the assumption that as a foreigner NOT to have a right to vote means not to have influence. That means ignoring the fact that by taking part in discussions, you may have several INdirect votes as you may convince people you meet. I when moving out of the political city of Zürich lost my option to vote on ZH municipal matters but through still taking part in "life" in the City of Zürich can exert may influence

I have never been to Finland, and the places nearest to Finland were Prague and Moscow. That prices when eating outside are twice those of in the shops is normal. "poptart" however states to have lived in Finland. A schoolfriend of me also lived in Helsinki for a few years and generally enjoyed it. That he found the climate to be even worse than what we have here hardly is the fault of the Helsinki parliament
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Old 03.03.2012, 10:35
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Re: Comparing Switzerland to Finland

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"Poptart" is basing the "democracy stuff ...." on the assumption that as a foreigner NOT to have a right to vote means not to have influence. That means ignoring the fact that by taking part in discussions, you may have several INdirect votes as you may convince people you meet. I when moving out of the political city of Zürich lost my option to vote on ZH municipal matters but through still taking part in "life" in the City of Zürich can exert may influence
Influence is still not voting....

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I have never been to Finland, and the places nearest to Finland were Prague and Moscow. That prices when eating outside are twice those of in the shops is normal. "poptart" however states to have lived in Finland. A schoolfriend of me also lived in Helsinki for a few years and generally enjoyed it. That he found the climate to be even worse than what we have here hardly is the fault of the Helsinki parliament
Oh, the climate is definitely different, particularly the manic 20 hours of darkness in the winter and 20 hours of light in the summer. I did find Oct-Feb in Zurich to be almost as gloomy though due to the fog and the infrequent moments of visible sunlight. But, no, there's nothing politicians can do to change climate and weather patterns.
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Old 03.03.2012, 10:43
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Re: Comparing Switzerland to Finland

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"Poptart" is basing the "democracy stuff ...." on the assumption that as a foreigner NOT to have a right to vote means not to have influence. That means ignoring the fact that by taking part in discussions, you may have several INdirect votes as you may convince people you meet. I when moving out of the political city of Zürich lost my option to vote on ZH municipal matters but through still taking part in "life" in the City of Zürich can exert may influence
There are parts of the country where foreigners can vote and that are not gloomy. Switzerland =/= Zurich, contrary to popular belief.
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Old 03.03.2012, 11:01
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Re: Comparing Switzerland to Finland

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Influence is still not voting....
.
very very true. But I remember a moment in London, beside Victoria Station, waiting for a Green Line Bus, back in autumn 72, when THE bus simply passed by. I was astonished. Then, an older man started to get round and finally came to me. He told me that he was getting signatures to get his MP to raise the problem in the House of Commons, and when I told him that I was in London for 3 months, was jubilant as whomever is in Britain for more than 2 months can sign. The man DID launch the matter and I back in Zürich purchased many British newspapers over the following months/years to see how the matter progressed. Real changes apparently were done. I cannot judge to what extent they were good for the people involved. But I was happy to have given a contribution. More of a contribution than I ever managed to do in Switzerland. I in Britain participated in many opinion polls. Even if voting, you are just ONE vote in 10'000s or 100'000s or millions. So that opinion polls ARE important. You are active as a journalist ? This does not give you more votes, BUT you by writing do have influence. I think it was Mark Twain who when answered about the power of the press replied "if active in the press you do NOT have power, but you have influence". YOUR influence may produce several votes in favour of YOUR position. As a CH citizen you simply have ONE vote.

You see, when moving to Adliswil, I missed my vote on City of Zürich affairs, abstained from voting on things in Adliswil about which I did not have clue but gradually found out that a chat in a tram can bring about three votes in favour of your position. When getting over to Glattbrugg, things improved in so far as Opfikon-Glattbrugg-Glattpark by its location between ZürichCity and Airport is quite an interesting place politically.

Nevertheless, I am still far more interested in the municipal affairs of ZürichCity but long ago have got into enjoying influence instead of voting myself

*********************************************

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There are parts of the country where foreigners can vote and that are not gloomy. Switzerland =/= Zurich, contrary to popular belief.
Generally, foreigners can vote in places which are irrelevant and so "poptart" unfortunately is right in his statement
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Old 03.03.2012, 14:31
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Re: Comparing Switzerland to Finland

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Lived there for a number of years, married to a native. I will admit to having a difficult time parsing that paragraph though. Yes, taxes are high in Finland and, what you take home is less, but this is the most expensive place to live - also add to pile that you'd have few employment rights, little safety net, pay out the wazoo for insurances but be terrified to call for an ambulance/paramedics unless you were dying as they're expensive and not covered by insurance, no dental insurance as it's too expensive, etc., etc. 'Expensive' is more than just how much money you take home at the end of the month....
You can of course list all of the things you do not have, but take a look what we have and how it is currently working and let`s see if you want these systems For example safety net here in Finland means that when you fell on that net you can not come out of it.

We do not anymore have for example free health care, if you want that kind of services you can buy those from some companies. We still get some reimburse about that but this has been going to direction that no one is getting anything. So currently in this we are still winning but that will not be the case after few years.

Ambulance/paramedics: In Switzerland you probably can decide when you need a ambulance, in Finland that is decided for you. For example you try call ambulance and say I have chest pain, they will decide do you need it or not (because it is expensive) and depending how good actor you are you have 50/50 chance to get help.

Employment rights.. Companies are afraid to get anyone working for them because of the employment rights: you can not get rid of the guy if he sucks. Also salaries has to be pretty low for the same reason. Nowadays those workforce renting offices are pretty popular.

Maybe you have seen the good times of Finland between 1970-1990?

BTW, How much people gets murdered per week at Switzerland? I think this is the best meter of prosperity if you can not see the facts other ways.
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Old 03.03.2012, 16:36
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Re: Comparing Switzerland to Finland

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You can of course list all of the things you do not have, but take a look what we have and how it is currently working and let`s see if you want these systems For example safety net here in Finland means that when you fell on that net you can not come out of it.

We do not anymore have for example free health care, if you want that kind of services you can buy those from some companies. We still get some reimburse about that but this has been going to direction that no one is getting anything. So currently in this we are still winning but that will not be the case after few years.

Ambulance/paramedics: In Switzerland you probably can decide when you need a ambulance, in Finland that is decided for you. For example you try call ambulance and say I have chest pain, they will decide do you need it or not (because it is expensive) and depending how good actor you are you have 50/50 chance to get help.

Employment rights.. Companies are afraid to get anyone working for them because of the employment rights: you can not get rid of the guy if he sucks. Also salaries has to be pretty low for the same reason. Nowadays those workforce renting offices are pretty popular.

Maybe you have seen the good times of Finland between 1970-1990?

BTW, How much people gets murdered per week at Switzerland? I think this is the best meter of prosperity if you can not see the facts other ways.
Alright, my physiotherapist I needed some 10 years was Finnish and told me a lot of what you do, and how good it was for her to have moved over here. I gradually start to understand.

But when deciding to move over, please come over first for a holiday week to look at local realities. In Switzerland, things change heavily within 20 kilometers and profoundly within 100 kilometers. 100 kms may not be much in Finland but 30 kms here can mean a difference in culture, language, political structure, level above sealevel = weather/climate, etc
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Old 03.03.2012, 19:29
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Re: Comparing Switzerland to Finland

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Generally, foreigners can vote in places which are irrelevant and so "poptart" unfortunately is right in his statement
Yes. Of course, the only relevant part of Switzerland is Zurich.
I don't mind at all living in the irrelevant part as from what I read on here, life is much nicer!
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Old 03.03.2012, 19:44
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Re: Comparing Switzerland to Finland

And what I meant with the direct democracy notation was that I am and many others are thinking direct democracy being most likely the one main reasons for stability in Switzerland.
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Old 03.03.2012, 20:11
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Re: Comparing Switzerland to Finland

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You can of course list all of the things you do not have, but take a look what we have and how it is currently working and let`s see if you want these systems For example safety net here in Finland means that when you fell on that net you can not come out of it.

We do not anymore have for example free health care, if you want that kind of services you can buy those from some companies. We still get some reimburse about that but this has been going to direction that no one is getting anything. So currently in this we are still winning but that will not be the case after few years.
I understand and I also never said it was 'free' as 40% taxation + 22% VAT is hardly 'free'. Still, having experienced both countries as a foreigner, even with all the challenges that being a foreigner presents in Finland, I'd still say that Finland is the more attractive country (save maybe for the Winter, although it's not a rout, really). I do see trouble ahead for Finland since there are so many folks aging/retiring without nearly enough folks to pay into the system and the very high barriers for immigration doesn't help increase the tax base to pay for the abundant and plentiful social benefits.

My overall impression of Switzerland is this; the US in the 1950s run under the Republican party and with a lot more rules.

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Ambulance/paramedics: In Switzerland you probably can decide when you need a ambulance, in Finland that is decided for you. For example you try call ambulance and say I have chest pain, they will decide do you need it or not (because it is expensive) and depending how good actor you are you have 50/50 chance to get help.
I've not read much in the Hesari lately about folks dying for want of an ambulance...have you? I don't know that such things happen here, either, but the difference being is that if you do really need it, you're not going to be worrying whether or not you can cover the several thousand CHF (from what I've read, not experienced, so this could be inaccurate) charge on top of your illness. Why health insurance, especially given how expensive it is, wouldn't cover such an item when it's needed is rather surprising.

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Employment rights.. Companies are afraid to get anyone working for them because of the employment rights: you can not get rid of the guy if he sucks. Also salaries has to be pretty low for the same reason. Nowadays those workforce renting offices are pretty popular.
Oh, now, we both know it's not true that punting folks isn't' legally possible in Finland, it's just that often the management don't want to pursue the cause. It happens everywhere but, Switzerland is far, far more like the US when it comes to being dismissed without cause or with prejudice whereas in Finland, you have some recourse in addition to being able to rely on unemployment.

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Maybe you have seen the good times of Finland between 1970-1990?
I came well after Mr. Kekkonen. I've worked in Finland, I'm familiar with the salaries, the purchasing power, the prices, etc. and, still, I managed to go out to eat and drink 2-3 times per week, had an apartment in downtown, and really integrated pretty well...none of which applies to Zurich.

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BTW, How much people gets murdered per week at Switzerland? I think this is the best meter of prosperity if you can not see the facts other ways.
[/quote]

No idea, but there are serial killers, rapists, nut jobs, and other sorts here just like there are everywhere. Has the murder rate gone up recently in Finland? At least in Finland most of the violent crime is personal, with a knife and usually aided by liberal applications of alcohol, i.e. far from random. I was also rather surprised to read recently that Finland has a very high rate of domestic violence...surprise might be the wrong wording but, still, rather curious. I'm sure it's no lower here, just probably less often reported due to women being more often dependent on their spouse after having children due to workplace pressures and lack of affordable childcare options.

More money and lower taxes doesn't always equate to paradise. There are a lot of other things to consider in the equation. I'm a sea-level liberal who needs an ocean nearby and a wide range of food choices as well as work options to be happy so...Switzerland doesn't quite do it for me.
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Old 03.03.2012, 20:15
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Re: Comparing Switzerland to Finland

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Yes. Of course, the only relevant part of Switzerland is Zurich.
I don't mind at all living in the irrelevant part as from what I read on here, life is much nicer!
I think what he meant, as I did, that sure, you can vote in some minor municipal elections if you have permanent status or have resided in the country long enough but, with citizenship, you don't get to vote in the really meaningful and important elections. It's pretty de rigeur for expats.
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Old 03.03.2012, 20:21
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Re: Comparing Switzerland to Finland

Good points there.
But I have to say those high finnish taxes pay for some good things also:

The education system is more equal in Finland. You can study and not be depended on your family's income. The yearly fees in universities are so small and you even get support from the government during your studies. The money you get is low, I admit, but with a cheap loan and/or a sidejob you can do it. This system makes it possible for the kids from low-income families to also get a good education.

The maternity leave in Finland is great and the childcare system is available and pretty cheap. So the mothers can keep on working on their careers. Here most of my friends who've had kids stay at home because the childcare costs as much as they would earn.

And the saunas are way better in Finland
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Old 03.03.2012, 20:58
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Re: Comparing Switzerland to Finland

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The education system is more equal in Finland. You can study and not be depended on your family's income. The yearly fees in universities are so small and you even get support from the government during your studies. The money you get is low, I admit, but with a cheap loan and/or a sidejob you can do it. This system makes it possible for the kids from low-income families to also get a good education.
True, but it comes with some drawbacks as well, e.g. wanting to pursue a degree in a particular discipline but not scoring well enough to get a place so having to go with your second or third choice.

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The maternity leave in Finland is great and the childcare system is available and pretty cheap. So they mothers can keep on working on their careers. Here most of my friends who've had kids stay at home because the childcare costs as much as they would earn.
The flip side is that salaries are lower and, so, many/most women need to work to support the family but there's so much support that it makes it easy to do not to mention the country has a very high representation in government by women (I suspect that a woman president in Switzerland is many, many years away, possibly even more years than for the US).

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And the saunas are way better in Finland
Oh, yes, and the avantouinti
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