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-   -   Police - Stop and Frisk (https://www.englishforum.ch/daily-life/150368-police-stop-frisk.html)

Guest 24.05.2015 23:10

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Well yes, but it is unusual for people to go to their garage at that time of night. We have had loads and loads of garage and shed thefts in the area- and people here complained the police was not vigilant enough and don't have enough patrols. Sometimes they just can't win, can they? I can just imagine another EF post saying they'd phoned the police about a suspected theft to a garage in the middle of the night, and that nobody came... and complain bitterly.

As long as they are polite, listen, explain, release- then perso I'd rather they did check- as long as they follow protocol and do it properly. If they stopped and searched me, I'd just answer clearly and then go on my way- if you have nothing to hide...

At 2am, if I can't sleep, I might read or watch tv- but I must say I wouldn't think of getting dressed, cross the road to go to my garage to check .... service info on the car;) But hey ho...lol. No harm done, is there?

parnell 24.05.2015 23:12

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jern (Post 2394451)
Wouldn't it be more reassuring if law-abiding citizens could go about their lawful business without being stopped and searched by plain-clothed police?

Unless they had a plausible reason for suspecting bigfujitsu of being involved in a crime, then they had no reason to stop and search him/her.

If non law abiding citzens could be convinced to carry around signs identifiying their non compliance sure. Meanwhile in real life...

Jern 25.05.2015 01:26

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Well yes, but it is unusual for people to go to their garage at that time of night. We have had loads and loads of garage and shed thefts in the area- and people here complained the police was not vigilant enough and don't have enough patrols. Sometimes they just can't win, can they? I can just imagine another EF post saying they'd phoned the police about a suspected theft to a garage in the middle of the night, and that nobody came... and complain bitterly.

As long as they are polite, listen, explain, release- then perso I'd rather they did check- as long as they follow protocol and do it properly. If they stopped and searched me, I'd just answer clearly and then go on my way- if you have nothing to hide...

At 2am, if I can't sleep, I might read or watch tv- but I must say I wouldn't think of getting dressed, cross the road to go to my garage to check .... service info on the car;) But hey ho...lol. No harm done, is there?
Reading and watching TV are fine nocturnal activities for upstanding gentlefolk, and some may feel that bigfujitsu's night-time checking of the service info was somehow deviant, but let's not try to be too prescriptive about what activities are acceptable at 2am.

No harm done? It is clearly a disturbing experience to be accosted for no good reason in the dead of night by plain-clothed police. It would be interesting to hear how bigfujitsu felt about the experience.

That the police be polite, listen and explain is the absolute basic minimum standard of behaviour we should expect. Above and beyond this, in a free society the police should also be constrained from interfering with people unless there is a good reason for suspecting involvement in a crime. The "If you have nothing to hide" argument is true, but banal. Who defines what is "something to hide"? The argument would apply equally in Pinochet's Chile or in the DDR under the Stasi, for example.

slammer 25.05.2015 07:12

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jern (Post 2394480)
The "If you have nothing to hide" argument is true, but banal. Who defines what is "something to hide"? The argument would apply equally in Pinochet's Chile or in the DDR under the Stasi, for example.

Especially since each and every one of us commits, statistically seen in Europe, 5 criminal offenses each and every day without even knowing it.

Treverus 25.05.2015 08:42

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jern (Post 2394451)
Unless they had a plausible reason for suspecting bigfujitsu of being involved in a crime, then they had no reason to stop and search him/her.

A guy walking around in a quiet residential neighborhood in the middle of the night dressing all black including a black hat is in my eyes a rather unusual sight. And obviously do we not know where he lives and weather or not there have been break-ins in the area... all in all do I prefer to show the cops my ID from time to time than living in a place where cops only react and not prevent crime.

greenmount 25.05.2015 08:53

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Next time don't forget to put on your Hawaiian shirt bigfujitsu...

SemAms 25.05.2015 10:05

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 2394500)
A guy walking around in a quiet residential neighborhood in the middle of the night dressing all black including a black hat is in my eyes a rather unusual sight. And obviously do we not know where he lives and weather or not there have been break-ins in the area... all in all do I prefer to show the cops my ID from time to time than living in a place where cops only react and not prevent crime.

But the police should have stopped at ID check and should not have searched him from top to bottom

Treverus 25.05.2015 11:20

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SemAms (Post 2394509)
But the police should have stopped at ID check and should not have searched him from top to bottom

Very valid point - and while I have to show my ID a couple of times in Switzerland... specifically if going out late in Zurich on weekends... I never got searched top to bottom.

Never seen cops doing this for fun except of with fans at football games of FCZ.

bigfujitsu 26.05.2015 00:17

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
I do not mind being stopped by the police and was very cooperative. I even wrote down my name on the police officers notebook since he had problems understanding my simple name.

There have been a few burglaries in the area late at night...
And to be honest I was a bit surprised myself to see these 2 guys walking around at 2 in the morning, so them being the police were probably even more surprised to see a guy all in black with a black hat... I forgot to mention that my black jacket was my fire department jacket which has a big fire department reflective logo on the front of it...

Nonetheless the full search was a bit too much. Especially given that I told them that I live right there...

Guest 26.05.2015 00:20

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Yes, I agree- full body search was weird if you gave a good explanation and kept calm, etc. Personally I would quietly and politely go to the police station and ask to see a senior member of staff and ask her/him why this was necessary- as it does seem totally OTT.

bigfujitsu 26.05.2015 00:34

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
I have thought about doing that, or just calling
however I think it is pointless because a police officer will not talk bad about another police officer, especially not in the same community department.

additionally I think I would have done the same as they did if I was a police officer in this area where crime is increasing...

I just wanted to post it here so we can all learn from my experience...

bigfujitsu 03.06.2015 01:05

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Cop convicted of for manslaughter and negligent bodily harm remains employed by the KAPO SZ

02/06/2015 15:27

In the early morning of September 12, 2012 There came to a police detention of two burglars on the Ibergereggstrasse in Rickenbach / SZ to firearms use by an employee of the canton Schwyz police resulting in death.

The cantonal criminal court sentenced the police on April 14, 2014 for manslaughter and negligent bodily harm. It considered the actual firing as justified (putative self-defense), the situation in dutiful care could have been avoided. The District Court has confirmed in its judgment of 20 January 2015, the condemnation. The conditional imprisonment was increased from 15 to 24 months. The verdict has now grown into legal force. The police command Schwyz initiated against the police officers normally convenes an administrative investigation. After the conviction of the police officers has become final, could now also they are concluded. She comes to the conclusion that when using any service breaches can be discerned, which go beyond the criminal judgment. The policeman continues to remain in the rear service of the Cantonal Police of Schwyz.

Urs Max 03.06.2015 12:15

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
I'm not sure what you are trying to say. At any rate, your post requires some clarifications:

There was a large-scale search ongoing for a stolen van. When the patrol found the van waiting at a red light, instead of waiting for backup (which was already under way) the policeman ran alone to the van and opened the co-driver door. This is the reason why the court says the situation could have been avoided, and the reason for the verdict.

The policeman opened the co-driver door, expecting the driver to be alone. However they were by two, and when the co-driver made a move with his arm the policeman says he felt threatened and shot, killing the co-driver by hitting him in the head and also the driver in the arm (only one shot was fired).

The court says that the putative self-defense caused by the arm movement, though factually wrong, was believable, which would usually result in an acquittal. But because the situation had been caused by the policemans himself, by him acting tactically wrong (he should have waited for backup) he was sentenced nonetheless.

The verdict is for negligent homicide (fahrlässige Tötung) and negligent bodily harm (fahrlässige Körperverletzung), 24 months of conditional(?) jail (bedingter Strafvollzug).

bigfujitsu 03.06.2015 12:53

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
how can a convicted police officer remain a police officer? A police officer is supposed to protect and serve, he if found negligent for harm and death. I have a hard time understanding this.

But in any case my point is that its pointless to complain about the police because even a police man that has been convicted of the worst crimes is still on his job.

Guest 03.06.2015 13:06

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bigfujitsu (Post 2394828)
Nonetheless the full search was a bit too much. Especially given that I told them that I live right there...


I believe Swiss police can also search your home with out a warrant. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Treverus 03.06.2015 13:24

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phos (Post 2399275)
I believe Swiss police can also search your home with out a warrant. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You're wrong.

Urs Max 03.06.2015 14:46

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bigfujitsu (Post 2399265)
how can a convicted police officer remain a police officer? A police officer is supposed to protect and serve, he if found negligent for harm and death. I have a hard time understanding this.

But in any case my point is that its pointless to complain about the police because even a police man that has been convicted of the worst crimes is still on his job.

One can be convicted for a lot of things that have nothing at all to do with being a policeman, including trifle issues like having to cut the trees so they don't reach over the fence.

The verdict "classifies" his action on the same level as somebody who, while driving perfectly fine, runs over and kills a kid that suddenly darts onto the street. Both are misdemeanors, not felonies.

So the real question may be, convicted for what, where's the red line?

AlexS 03.06.2015 15:09

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jern (Post 2394451)
Wouldn't it be more reassuring if law-abiding citizens could go about their lawful business without being stopped and searched by plain-clothed police?

Unless they had a plausible reason for suspecting bigfujitsu of being involved in a crime, then they had no reason to stop and search him/her.


Police dress in plain clothes so they can move around relatively un-noticed and blend in, so as not to attract attention and observe people/groups that need observing.

Actually, the best and sometimes only way to catch criminals pre-, mid-, post crime is to stop and talk to them first to get an idea of their demeanour. Criminals don't walk around in black & white striped overalls with a bag with "SWAG" written on it. Police often patrol in higher crime areas, that suffer a particular type of crime, and at certain times of day. If someone (innocent member of the public or criminal) happens to be in the area, then for sure you'd talk to them. As you talk to them, you're experience tells you that things either do or don't add up or ring true. Good Policemen can work this out very quickly. As things don't start to add up, the rationale for searching/detaining them cranks up more and more. If you're not doing anything dodgy and are an innocent person walking around, then what's the issue? You'll be on your way soon enough.

AlexS 03.06.2015 15:22

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tooki (Post 1599834)
It's very simple: That the police in USA often ignore the law (statute and legal precedent). Regardless of how it may make life difficult for a cop, it's their job to know the law and work within its confines. We need people calling the cops out on each and every violation of the law they commit, because this is growing and growing, and meanwhile, police departments across the USA are arming themselves to the teeth with military weapons they get for free. That can't end well.

So, if we all follow that ideology, then should we call the Police because you stole some paperclips from your office? They're no more immune to mistakes and pressure than you or anyone else.

What most average Joe's on the street seem to forget is the the Police are the last line of resolution to many a sticky situation, drunken, drug, mental health induced violence. It's easy to sit in your chair criticising others for doing the best job they can without having to do it yourself. The situations you'd find yourself in mean they don't have the luxury of pausing a video, assessing the situation, having a coffee and discussing the best and worst case scenarios and then a course of action. They have to make split second decisions to preserve either themselves or others. Sometimes, those actions aren't optimal, but someone has to make them, someone has to clean up other people's sh1t, could you do it?


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