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-   -   Police - Stop and Frisk (https://www.englishforum.ch/daily-life/150368-police-stop-frisk.html)

BKinTheHouse 02.07.2012 00:09

Police - Stop and Frisk
 
What are the rules governing Police stop and searches? I live in Brooklyn, NY and folks here are kinda sensitive about the Stop and Frisk police tactics due to profiling. Is Stop and Frisk a common police strategy in Switzerland?

I was down at the Sihlquai last week and observed the police 'randomly' stop and search 3 different groups. After a pat down and search of possessions, 2 of the stops resulted in all being let go. In the third, the police found a nice fat sack of ganja (5 grams at least). I was expecting the cops to slap cuffs on the guys and take him, but they just wrote him a ticket and went on their way. Seemed like a whole lot of work, just to write a ticket.

cheesey 02.07.2012 00:15

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
did you get your ganja back?

maxvoegtli 02.07.2012 00:33

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Swiss police are very relaxed when it comes to weed. Police have every right to search any person they feel looks suspicious. It does't happen to often. Mostly to young people who are looking shady. Particularly for underage drinking. I've never heard of a case foreigners being pick out for frisks.

saint7uk 02.07.2012 03:18

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
fili
Quote:

Originally Posted by BKinTheHouse (Post 1598155)
What are the rules governing Police stop and searches? I live in Brooklyn, NY and folks here are kinda sensitive about the Stop and Frisk police tactics due to profiling. Is Stop and Frisk a common police strategy in Switzerland?

I was down at the Sihlquai last week and observed the police 'randomly' stop and search 3 different groups. After a pat down and search of possessions, 2 of the stops resulted in all being let go. In the third, the police found a nice fat sack of ganja (5 grams at least). I was expecting the cops to slap cuffs on the guys and take him, but they just wrote him a ticket and went on their way. Seemed like a whole lot of work, just to write a ticket.

Here you have to forget about words like profiling, this is really unlike anywhere else and in many eyes view un pc, they however don't give a toss what people think and do things the way they do them.

As the above post says if they found some pot, big deal, ticket and telling off perhaps; you will be smelling loads of it at any station, but I would be very wary of stoping them searching you if they are so enclined. Cops will be very friendly until you step into their black area. Most things are black and white here with very few shades of grey.

you have to understand that this is a country where if drunken teenagers were throwing litter about an 80 year old woman will most likely tell them off and insist they pick it up, 9 times out of 10 they will and apologise!

cheesey 02.07.2012 09:22

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Yeah, good points. If you are coming here from NYC then welcome to a much much much lower crime environment. Coppers are coppers in any country and a portion will be power crazed tossers, so trying to explain their own laws to the them would likely do you about as much good as in NYC. For people who've lived in big cities like NYC and London, it's quite amusing to go to what Swiss think are dodgy neighbourhoods here. Very tame. Enjoy.

Guest 02.07.2012 10:12

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
There's a small area not far from a kids' play area at the Chinagarten which is often visited by the local police looking for drugs. The police have dogs with them and it's amazing how many times they come up trumps and find something, hauling off one or two of them in handcuffs.

I'm not really a criminal mastermind but I'm amazed that these dodgy blokes keep coming back to the same spot where they must know the police are going to roll around at some point. Especially if it's all happening in the vicinity of a kids' play area - for the police it must be like the proverbial shooting fish in a barrel...

simon_ch 02.07.2012 10:39

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

I'm not really a criminal mastermind but I'm amazed that these dodgy blokes keep coming back to the same spot where they must know the police are going to roll around at some point. Especially if it's all happening in the vicinity of a kids' play area - for the police it must be like the proverbial shooting fish in a barrel...
Thing is Chinagarten, Sihlquai, around Letten and a few other areas are known spots for buying drugs, so the small dealers go there because that's where the clients are. And since quite a few of the dealers have ongoing asylum requests it's not like they'd pay the fine either.. It's about time we decriminalize weed anyway, it's not like it ever stopped anyone from smoking in the public..

Guest 02.07.2012 10:45

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by simon_ch (Post 1598270)
Thing is Chinagarten, Sihlquai, around Letten and a few other areas are known spots for buying drugs, so the small dealers go there because that's where the clients are. And since quite a few of the dealers have ongoing asylum requests it's not like they'd pay the fine either.. It's about time we decriminalize weed anyway, it's not like it ever stopped anyone from smoking in the public..

I just wish they'd bugger off from the kids' area but that's another thread...

Uncle Max 02.07.2012 12:05

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maxvoegtli (Post 1598166)
I've never heard of a case foreigners being pick out for frisks.

Ride the 32 bus a couple of times and you'll see the Bulls jump on, look around and schlepp off a couple of black guys quite regularly.

People getting frisked tend usually to be of foreign appearance. But that could be me imposing my prejudices.

Quote:

There's a small area not far from a kids' play area at the Chinagarten which is often visited by the local police looking for drugs. The police have dogs with them and it's amazing how many times they come up trumps and find something, hauling off one or two of them in handcuffs.

I'm not really a criminal mastermind but I'm amazed that these dodgy blokes keep coming back to the same spot where they must know the police are going to roll around at some point. Especially if it's all happening in the vicinity of a kids' play area - for the police it must be like the proverbial shooting fish in a barrel...
Quote:

I just wish they'd bugger off from the kids' area but that's another thread...
Frankly Apparently, the dealers were there long before the pesky rich kids and their nannies started ruining it for everyone with brightly coloured plastic toys and designer polo tops.

Everyone at least knows their place. It kinda works.

Guest 02.07.2012 13:17

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Max (Post 1598331)

Frankly Apparently, the dealers were there long before the pesky rich kids and their nannies started ruining it for everyone with brightly coloured plastic toys and designer polo tops.

Everyone at least knows their place. It kinda works.

Easy, tiger... :D

EDIT: thinking about it - the area the dodgy blokes are populating now is relatively new since they demolished the old kiosk by the Hafen Riesbach and built that new funky restaurant. They used to hang around there.

BKinTheHouse 02.07.2012 17:21

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
I take it that the notion of 'probable cause' does not exist in Switzerland. What protections then do Swiss have against unreasonable search and seizure? Can Swiss cops really walk up on a person and search them without cause?

simon_ch 02.07.2012 17:27

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BKinTheHouse (Post 1598669)
I take it that the notion of 'probable cause' does not exist in Switzerland. What protections then do Swiss have against unreasonable search and seizure? Can Swiss cops really walk up on a person and search them without cause?

We simply assume that our cops are reasonable I suppose. :confused:
If you stay here for a while you will find that the average Swiss has much more trust in authorities than other nationalities, as long as the search is conducted in a civil, respectful manner most Swiss won't object.

BKinTheHouse 02.07.2012 17:48

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by simon_ch (Post 1598672)
If you stay here for a while you will find that the average Swiss has much more trust in authorities than other nationalitiesas long as the search is conducted in a civil, respectful manner most Swiss won't object.

Are you saying that the Swiss don't mind being screwed so long as it's done gently and with a little bit of lubrication?

I was very surprised how civilized and respectful the police were. But the question still remains for me, the legality of it all.

amaraya 02.07.2012 17:49

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by simon_ch (Post 1598672)
We simply assume that our cops are reasonable I suppose. :confused:
If you stay here for a while you will find that the average Swiss has much more trust in authorities than other nationalities, as long as the search is conducted in a civil, respectful manner most Swiss won't object.

the problem being, of course, that swiss cops are not randomly searching the 'average' swiss, but tend to profile just as they do in brooklyn (god, i loved taking the afternoon off high school and heading down to prospect park!). i've seen it here in lausanne but only with groups of assumed non-swiss men who congregate near the station.


if the police were searching the 'average' swiss they would be up in the festivals, clubs and vip areas where the bigger action happens, i'm sure. but that may involve rounding up a whole different group of people, if you know what i mean.

Corbets 02.07.2012 21:43

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BKinTheHouse (Post 1598702)
Are you saying that the Swiss don't mind being screwed so long as it's done gently and with a little bit of lubrication?

Nah. It just means that they're not so inclined to see the absolute worst in every last little action, as opposed to Americans.

Here, civil servants actually get respect - and, by and large, they're worthy of it.

lost_inbroad 03.07.2012 08:12

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Corbets (Post 1598884)
Here, civil servants actually get respect

Not so sure about that.

http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/pol...id1826183.html

http://www.zuonline.ch/artikel_50458.html

roostermike 03.07.2012 11:38

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
So back to the actual thread... Anybody know what the actual rules are?

I am also pretty keen to find out. Always good, IMO, to be prepared and at least know your rights (even if only a few exist).

lost_inbroad 03.07.2012 11:59

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by roostermike (Post 1599185)
So back to the actual thread... Anybody know what the actual rules are?

I am also pretty keen to find out. Always good, IMO, to be prepared and at least know your rights (even if only a few exist).

Yes, they are allowed to frisk you.

prof. taratonga 03.07.2012 13:24

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by roostermike (Post 1599185)
So back to the actual thread... Anybody know what the actual rules are?

I am also pretty keen to find out. Always good, IMO, to be prepared and at least know your rights (even if only a few exist).

The police can stop and frisk (search bags etc., frisk for weapons). They are not allowed to do a body search in public. Ask them to do this either in the car or on the police station. Orifices can only be searched by medical personel. If you are a woman ask to be searched by a woman.

Following data you will have to give when asked:
Names, DOB, address, hometown, names of parents

You don't have to answer anything else (where you're going, what you doing etc.). If they try to interrogate you can decline to give any information. Tell them: "Ich habe nichts zu sagen" or "Ich verweigere die Aussage" (I don't have anything to say, I refuse to give information).
They will try to bluff sometimes so be careful.

If they make a protocol take your time and double check it. You can refuse to subscribe.

If the handcuffs or any other device hurts tell them to loosen them.
Make sure that if they don't want to do it that this is mentioned in the protocol. If you are hurt after a search go directly to a doctor.

They only can hold you in custody for 24hours (48h on weekends).

Important:
Make your own memory minutes after any incident with the police. This will help you afterwards.

Always try to get contact infos from witnesses.

This is important if the police uses violence or insults you.

Always have your ID on you, it's not compulsory but it simplifies things for both sides.
If you need legal advice or a lawyer when Jailed (over 24h) get in touch with the "Democratic Lawyers of Switzerland"
(Tel Zürich: 044 241 24 55 / Bern: 031 372 48 43 /Basel: 061 333 77 80 )

simon_ch 03.07.2012 14:05

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amaraya (Post 1598704)
if the police were searching the 'average' swiss they would be up in the festivals, clubs and vip areas where the bigger action happens, i'm sure. but that may involve rounding up a whole different group of people, if you know what i mean.

That happens quite a lot as well, especially in clubs with known drug consumption. Everyone leaving gets frisked, quite a few get caught with cocaine. But maybe not in Geneva, otherwise they'd have to try and fine embassy staff, Geneva's a mess anyway. :cool:

amaraya 03.07.2012 14:39

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by simon_ch (Post 1599324)
That happens quite a lot as well, especially in clubs with known drug consumption. Everyone leaving gets frisked, quite a few get caught with cocaine. But maybe not in Geneva, otherwise they'd have to try and fine embassy staff, Geneva's a mess anyway. :cool:

preaching to the choir. that's why i live in lovely lausanne.

but it's not often you see a pat down on a banker...just saying.

Guest 03.07.2012 14:44

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amaraya (Post 1599364)
preaching to the choir. that's why i live in lovely lausanne.

but it's not often you see a pat down on a banker...just saying.

Unless he was chuffing on a joint.

amaraya 03.07.2012 14:52

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Unless he was chuffing on a joint.
nah- in lausanne that seems to be ok.

Guest 03.07.2012 14:53

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
The Thread Title Reminds Me Of The Orgazmo Scene When The Cop Frisks The Guy After Getting Shot @ 3:27


Chemmie 03.07.2012 20:32

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
here's a good example of the deal in the US for comparison sake:




For a good 30 years now in Canada has freedom 'from unreasonable search and seizure as well'.

Very interesting on what seems 'right' and 'wrong'.

simon_ch 03.07.2012 20:38

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chemmie (Post 1599666)
here's a good example of the deal in the US for comparison sake:

For a good 30 years now in Canada has freedom 'from unreasonable search and seizure as well'.

Very interesting on what seems 'right' and 'wrong'.

Seems so silly to me to obstruct a normal ID check like that, not sure what point that guy was trying to make.

Chemmie 03.07.2012 20:54

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by simon_ch (Post 1599673)
Seems so silly to me to obstruct a normal ID check like that, not sure what point that guy was trying to make.

Definitely, the guys comes off as a bit of a tool. As a law student, he is just protecting his right for the potential worst-case-scenario. The point he tries to make, is there are specific laws established by court, and there has been a trend in the US for police to work in contrast to such laws. If this somehow came down to a situation where one might have to face a judge, prosecuting lawyers in the US are very good at twisting small items into jury-hating-attributes of a person.

But again, I posted this to show the contrast where some places, just asking for ID is against the law.

Simeon 03.07.2012 21:24

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Refering to post #25, if this tete-a-tete had happened to anybody perceived of as a "minority" in the US, that person would have been on the floor so fast, we would not have been saying any Iphone video at all. The cops we saw were particularly restrained for US city law enforcement. Or maybe they realized soon enough they were dealing with a law student .

tooki 04.07.2012 00:32

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by simon_ch (Post 1599673)
Seems so silly to me to obstruct a normal ID check like that, not sure what point that guy was trying to make.

It's very simple: That the police in USA often ignore the law (statute and legal precedent). Regardless of how it may make life difficult for a cop, it's their job to know the law and work within its confines. We need people calling the cops out on each and every violation of the law they commit, because this is growing and growing, and meanwhile, police departments across the USA are arming themselves to the teeth with military weapons they get for free. That can't end well.

Mica 04.07.2012 01:09

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by prof. taratonga (Post 1599287)
The police can stop and frisk (search bags etc., frisk for weapons).

For Zurich the legal basis is §21 PolG. They can stop and frisk you if it is necessary for the "execution of their duties", which can mean just about anything...

Quote:

Originally Posted by prof. taratonga (Post 1599287)
If you need legal advice or a lawyer when Jailed (over 24h) get in touch with the "Democratic Lawyers of Switzerland" (Tel Zürich: 044 241 24 55 / Bern: 031 372 48 43 /Basel: 061 333 77 80 )

The Zurich Bar Association together with the Democratic Jurists of Zurich operate a joint Criminal Defense Emergency Service (more information in English: http://www.zav.ch/service/pikett_str...l?newLangID=en)
24h-hotline +41 (0)44 201 00 10

DavidPesenti 04.07.2012 10:59

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
total rubbish, seriously a man can walk the streets of portland in the US with a weapon and then when concerned neighbours call the police can not even check the individuals identity (does he need to have a permit?) Insane!

He was rather respectful in his tone using lots of "sirs" but still...i found him repugnent. He may need the police one day...

DavidPesenti 04.07.2012 11:04

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tooki (Post 1599834)
It's very simple: That the police in USA often ignore the law (statute and legal precedent). Regardless of how it may make life difficult for a cop, it's their job to know the law and work within its confines. We need people calling the cops out on each and every violation of the law they commit, because this is growing and growing, and meanwhile, police departments across the USA are arming themselves to the teeth with military weapons they get for free. That can't end well.

Seriously? So how much does a policeman earn? are you suggesting they get sent to college to study law? for this to be reflected in their salary and status in society? for them to drive around as quasi lawyers?

Also i could perhaps see why they would need such equipment if it is legal to carry openly fire arms in some parts of the states as you are doing your "shopping" or taking your dog for a walk.
¨
He set the whole thing up too...on his video he claims he was "detained".

Chemmie 04.07.2012 13:00

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidPesenti (Post 1599983)
total rubbish, seriously a man can walk the streets of portland in the US with a weapon and then when concerned neighbours call the police can not even check the individuals identity (does he need to have a permit?) Insane!

He was rather respectful in his tone using lots of "sirs" but still...i found him repugnent. He may need the police one day...

That's just another country with another set of laws and rights. The Americans and Canadians are very proud of their freedom 'unreasonable search and seizure' and many Americans are very proud of their 'right to bear arms'.

As such, I do feel there is a high level of prejudice in the rights police have here to expose anyone to a full body search and incarceration based on nothing more than their physical appearance. But again, it is a difference country and culture and I respect that.

bigfujitsu 24.05.2015 10:15

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by prof. taratonga (Post 1599287)
The police can stop and frisk (search bags etc., frisk for weapons). They are not allowed to do a body search in public. Ask them to do this either in the car or on the police station. Orifices can only be searched by medical personel. If you are a woman ask to be searched by a woman.

Following data you will have to give when asked:
Names, DOB, address, hometown, names of parents

You don't have to answer anything else (where you're going, what you doing etc.). If they try to interrogate you can decline to give any information. Tell them: "Ich habe nichts zu sagen" or "Ich verweigere die Aussage" (I don't have anything to say, I refuse to give information).
They will try to bluff sometimes so be careful.

If they make a protocol take your time and double check it. You can refuse to subscribe.

If the handcuffs or any other device hurts tell them to loosen them.
Make sure that if they don't want to do it that this is mentioned in the protocol. If you are hurt after a search go directly to a doctor.

They only can hold you in custody for 24hours (48h on weekends).

Important:
Make your own memory minutes after any incident with the police. This will help you afterwards.

Always try to get contact infos from witnesses.

This is important if the police uses violence or insults you.

Always have your ID on you, it's not compulsory but it simplifies things for both sides.
If you need legal advice or a lawyer when Jailed (over 24h) get in touch with the "Democratic Lawyers of Switzerland"
(Tel Zürich: 044 241 24 55 / Bern: 031 372 48 43 /Basel: 061 333 77 80 )

last Wednesday night, I could not sleep so I went to my garage which is across the street to check the service info in my car (at 2am). As I arrived back in front of my house I was approached by 2 undercover kantons polizei, who shewed me their ID, and asked what I was doing, where I was going and why. They asked if I have anything in my pockets and asked me to empty my pockets after which they searched me from top to bottom. Lastly they collected my personal information and called to check me in their system. After which they said all is good, goo night.

I think the problem might have been that I was the only person outside at 2am and I was wearing a black jacket and black hat. Thankfully I am not black black skin... Very bizarre encounter.

Jern 24.05.2015 10:27

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bigfujitsu (Post 2394202)
last Wednesday night, I could not sleep so I went to my garage which is across the street to check the service info in my car (at 2am). As I arrived back in front of my house I was approached by 2 undercover kantons polizei, who shewed me their ID, and asked what I was doing, where I was going and why. They asked if I have anything in my pockets and asked me to empty my pockets after which they searched me from top to bottom. Lastly they collected my personal information and called to check me in their system. After which they said all is good, goo night.

I think the problem might have been that I was the only person outside at 2am and I was wearing a black jacket and black hat. Thankfully I am not black black skin... Very bizarre encounter.

Sounds like one of your neighbours also couldn't sleep on Wednesday night, noticed your nefarious black-hatted and black-jacketed activities, and phoned the police.

crazykittylady 24.05.2015 14:19

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jern (Post 2394205)
Sounds like one of your neighbours also couldn't sleep on Wednesday night, noticed your nefarious black-hatted and black-jacketed activities, and phoned the police.

Why would the police be undercover then?

Also, what constitutes proper ID? I go running late at night and all take with me is my SBB card. it's not pleasant to carry things when running and things constantly fall out of pockets.

Mark75 24.05.2015 14:47

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crazykittylady (Post 2394286)
Why would the police be undercover then?

Might just be a coincidence. If I a neighbor called due to suspicious activity they'd probably send whoever was closest.

bigfujitsu 24.05.2015 22:31

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
nobody called. I know this because I noticed the vehicle drive down the street and stop on a side street and the 2 guys were talking loud. They were probably just patrolling the area... I think they went to use the restroom and as they walked back to their car they saw me walking to my building so they approached me to check on me... First time that I was stopped and searched by police.

Guest 24.05.2015 22:37

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Very re-assuring that they do care and take note... you'd be very grateful I'm sure if they had caught someone trying to raid your garage, wouldn't you. Probably the 'brigade des stups' if in plain clothes, as said above, looking for any drug dealing, etc. Good on them. They were polite, listened to you and checked your info and quietly let you go, once assured you were ok. Excellent news, I'd say.

Jern 24.05.2015 22:47

Re: Police - Stop and Frisk
 
Quote:

Very re-assuring that they do care and take note... you'd be very grateful I'm sure if they had caught someone trying to raid your garage, wouldn't you. Probably the 'brigade des stups' if in plain clothes, as said above, looking for any drug dealing, etc. Good on them. They were polite, listened to you and checked your info and quietly let you go, once assured you were ok. Excellent news, I'd say.
Wouldn't it be more reassuring if law-abiding citizens could go about their lawful business without being stopped and searched by plain-clothed police?

Unless they had a plausible reason for suspecting bigfujitsu of being involved in a crime, then they had no reason to stop and search him/her.


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