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  #61  
Old 10.08.2012, 15:44
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Re: New "improved" speed cameras

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You are deluded if you think that out of 558 deaths due to loss of control, none were due to excessive speed?
I said you cannot link the two, one way or the other. That's not delusion, it's merely imperical observation and statistics.

In an unrelated topic, I firmly believe that cycling helmets save people/kids from serious brain injuries...but I can't prove that because statistically it has not been proven. I cannot suddenly leap to assumptions and start calling for all cyclists to wear helmets because what I believe is more important than what can be comprehensively proven scientifically or statistically.

It is indeed possible that excessive speed was a present in *some* accidents - but its was not forensically recorded as the *root cause* of the accident as noted by the UK police forensic team. This is important.

What is means is, that if the recorded cause of the accident is removed, the other factors at work would not have been able to cause *the same* accident.

For a link to be made, you would need to document root and secondary causes for all accidents - this is not done in the UK figures as only the "root" cause is documented.

Naturally, if you have (unbias) figures supporting your case...?
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  #62  
Old 10.08.2012, 15:48
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Re: New "improved" speed cameras

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no-one speeds then no-one has to pay fines.
That's not what people are complaining about. They are merely mentioning that some limits and camera scenarios are set to generate revenue, rather than improve safety, and it's very easy (but not unsafe) to get caught. It's an important distinction.

Nobody here has condoned unliateral speeding.
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  #63  
Old 10.08.2012, 16:00
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Re: New "improved" speed cameras

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OK. -with one speeding then.

So instead of the speed limit signs being the legal and binding factor on the roads we should have a sort of speed camera colour index.
haha, now now lets not get silly here.

as said before cameras should be used as a proactive device and not reactive...

try and stop the incident/speeding etc before it happens, but by hiding its position it becomes reactive and a revenue generator.
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  #64  
Old 10.08.2012, 16:01
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Re: New "improved" speed cameras

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Nobody here has condoned unliateral speeding.
Mainly because no-one knows what it is...
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  #65  
Old 10.08.2012, 16:04
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Re: New "improved" speed cameras

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haha, now now lets not get silly here.

as said before cameras should be used as a proactive device and not reactive...

try and stop the incident/speeding etc before it happens, but by hiding its position it becomes reactive and a revenue generator.
Technically it's only reactive until the driver notices it, and then it becomes preventative. For about 50 metres, anyway...
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  #66  
Old 10.08.2012, 16:18
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Re: New "improved" speed cameras

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It is indeed possible that excessive speed was a present in *some* accidents -
"indeed possible" ??? ... It's nailed on mate... market suspended on Betfair

So i'll re-phrase my statement

It's quite scary that you think that out of 558 deaths due to loss of control, you only think it's possible *some* were due to excessive speed?
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  #67  
Old 10.08.2012, 16:24
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Re: New "improved" speed cameras

Apart from being 2 years old article as mentioned (and thus cameras are probably all over the place now), I don't see the fuss.
They are actually improving situation in terms of debated real causes of accidents (ie tailgating). I didn't catch any info about stricter speed monitoring or whatever. Positioning of cameras is far from ideal, but that's a fact of life everywhere in this world.
Being a BMW 3 driver, every time I take highway there are some guys driving 2-3 meters after my car, ranging from equally powerful to old junk, hoping to have some chase or whatever. Like it would mean that if I have a relatively strong car, so I am compensating for my small ego/body parts/whatever and thus am willing to do some stupid things. They lose interest after a minute or two, but it IS annoying, and dangerous for everybody. Fine them to hell for their stupidity I say
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  #68  
Old 10.08.2012, 16:27
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Re: New "improved" speed cameras

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"indeed possible" ??? ... It's nailed on mate... market suspended on Betfair
Lol - you haven't twigged yet have you?

Statistically, it's *IMPOSSIBLE* to corrolate the two, based on this dataset, because neither set were recorded at the same time, as only one criteria - root cause - is sampled. Venn diagram it all you like but all it will show is that of 313 oranges, 58 of those were also apples.

I'll also re-emphasise what I said above. After forensic investigations the police document the ROOT CAUSE of the accident for the stats. So while excess speed may (or may not) have been present, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO INDICATE IT WOULD HAVE CAUSED THE ACCIDENT IN THE ABSENCE OF THE ROOT CAUSE.

If you are unfamiliar with what ROOT CAUSE is as a concept, I not really sure where to go with this.
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  #69  
Old 10.08.2012, 16:29
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Re: New "improved" speed cameras

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Being a BMW 3 driver,

funny, on my bike ride back from gotthard to basel yesterday i came across a few tossers that thought all road rules didnt apply to them...

they all had a BMW 3 , all in jest of course
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  #70  
Old 10.08.2012, 16:38
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Re: New "improved" speed cameras

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-17031964

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-19192573

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19145122

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-19148304


You can throw stats and root cause at me all day but this is the real world. If you search the BBC for car crash there are plenty more.

I'm sure you say the links above don't prove that any of the 558 deaths are related to speed which is scary. You don't leave the road flip over and hit a tree on a bend if you are driving at the normal speed in good conditions.
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  #71  
Old 10.08.2012, 16:42
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Re: New "improved" speed cameras

btw... from the 1st link...


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Surrey County Council said about 800 people were injured in Surrey each year in about 500 speed-related crashes on the roads.
which is.... hhmmmm 62.5%

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  #72  
Old 10.08.2012, 16:48
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Re: New "improved" speed cameras

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I'm sure you say the links above don't prove that any of the 558 deaths are related to speed which is scary. You don't leave the road flip over and hit a tree on a bend if you are driving at the normal speed in good conditions.
Yes. You do. My brother wrote off my mum's 3 series in exactly this fashion. He was an inexperienced driver at the time. It won't show up in the stats though, because there were no injuries, and only injury accidents are recorded.

Was the speed the root cause or the loss of control? It is not mentioned, so you cannot draw assumptions here. Corrolation != Causation

No mention at all of excess speed...?

Lol. No mention of speeding here either. The article even mentions the layout of the road could be improved (a hint at the ROOT CAUSE?).

No mention of excess speed here either.

4 articles...0 showing statistical link between loss of control and excess speed.
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Old 10.08.2012, 16:49
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Re: New "improved" speed cameras

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I'm sure you say the links above don't prove that any of the 558 deaths are related to speed which is scary.
Nobody's said anything of the sort. If I may remind you of this sub-thread, it started when you claimed:
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On average 7 people are killed on UK roads every day. Excessive speed is the main cause of this. Fact.
Since that point several people have pointed out to you that this is not supported by any evidence, so you now seem to be twisting and turning to try and find a way to make it right. It's not, and no matter what you do you won't find stats to support it.

Of course speed is often a contributory factor, of course it often makes the results of an accident worse, of course some accidents are almost solely caused by excessive speed. Nobody's saying otherwise.

But you can't just cherry-pick the ones that are and use that to support the idea that they all are.
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  #74  
Old 10.08.2012, 16:49
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Re: New "improved" speed cameras

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funny, on my bike ride back from gotthard to basel yesterday i came across a few tossers that thought all road rules didnt apply to them...

they all had a BMW 3 , all in jest of course

well, some of us buy it just because it's such a great car to drive, and it can be a lot of fun without breaking a single traffic or safety rule (which is even more challenging) ... and then there are others, be it BMWs, Audis, Mercs or whatever else
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  #75  
Old 10.08.2012, 16:50
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Re: New "improved" speed cameras

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btw... from the 1st link...




which is.... hhmmmm 62.5%

No it's not. Since speed is present in all accidents, according to your logic, 100% of these accidents were speed-related.
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  #76  
Old 10.08.2012, 16:52
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Re: New "improved" speed cameras

Of course you can, one accident I witnessed was a driver losing control on a motorway. It was a dry, sunny afternoon and he was not speeding or anywhere near it but he still was all over the road narrowly missing other cars as they hit the brakes and swerved out of the way, went up the embankment & ended up facing the wrong way.

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You don't leave the road flip over and hit a tree on a bend if you are driving at the normal speed in good conditions.
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  #77  
Old 10.08.2012, 16:57
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Re: New "improved" speed cameras

Articles on the BBC don't give statistical links between loss of control and excess speed.

If you can't see that from this....

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Kelly Phillips, 17, was a passenger in a car travelling at 80mph in a 40mph zone when the driver lost control and hit a tree near Guildford.
that it was high speed that caused loss of control then I'm not sure any data I could find would convince you.
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Old 10.08.2012, 17:03
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Re: New "improved" speed cameras

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Of course you can, one accident I witnessed was a driver losing control on a motorway. It was a dry, sunny afternoon and he was not speeding or anywhere near it but he still was all over the road narrowly missing other cars as they hit the brakes and swerved out of the way, went up the embankment & ended up facing the wrong way.
OK... 558 people don't die per year due to losing control at normal speed in good conditions.

My just view is that the biggest proportion of these deaths will involve excessive speed. It's only my view... I don't have statistics to prove it.
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  #79  
Old 10.08.2012, 17:07
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Re: New "improved" speed cameras

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that it was high speed that caused loss of control then I'm not sure any data I could find would convince you.
PMSL.

1. This is not data. The DfT report I provided is data. The BBC article is journalism. Journalism != data.

2. The word WHEN can be used to connect (potentially) two unrelated activities. Watch me use it now...

Joe Bloggs, 17, was doing her nails when the driver switched on his headlights near Guildford.

Doing her nails did not cause the driver to switch his lights on. Or vice versa.

3. Nobody here needs convincing of the ills of inappropriate speed. But you have still to evidence statistical data to support your previous statements.
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Old 10.08.2012, 17:09
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Re: New "improved" speed cameras

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My just view is that the biggest proportion of these deaths will involve excessive speed. It's only my view... I don't have statistics to prove it.
Then you'll retract your previous statement where you said it was fact?
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