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  #41  
Old 13.08.2012, 22:15
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Re: Protecting Non-smokers - Referendum Sep 23, 2012

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The best way to get kids from taking up smoking is to stop letting them see it everywhere.
Nope, the best way is to make them smoke cigars and inhale!

Tom
  #42  
Old 13.08.2012, 22:46
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Re: Protecting Non-smokers - Referendum Sep 23, 2012

Instead of banning it the price of cigarettes needs to go up at by triple and then impose a really tight limit at the border on how much is permitted to be brought in.

As a non smoker I am shocked at how cheap cigarettes are in switzerland and all of europe
  #43  
Old 13.08.2012, 22:53
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Re: Protecting Non-smokers - Referendum Sep 23, 2012

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I have the suspicion that support for anti-smoking laws, in
particular the banning/restricting of smoking within private
property, has more to do with practical, short-term annoy-
ances and expenses (unpleasant odor, dry-cleaning, etc.)
than the longer-term effects on health.

That has been my experience as being generally the sole
non-smoker who speaks against anti-smoking laws when-
ever the subject is brought up.

The point I’m trying to make is, perhaps, that people have
no inherent “right” to a smoke-free activity within private
property, e.g. in a restaurant. I find the inclination towards
ever more government regulation to be highly questionable.
I am sorry but restaurants and offices are NOT "private" places but PUBLIC places even if privately owned. And as lots of managers of pubs and restaurants and cafés are smokers, the "market" would be irrelevant. If two persons out of 40 smoke, you have a smoker place.
  #44  
Old 13.08.2012, 23:47
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Re: Protecting Non-smokers - Referendum Sep 23, 2012

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As a non smoker I am shocked at how cheap cigarettes are in switzerland and all of europe
Meanwhile, I am planning to start growing tobacco next year, to supply my friends!

Tom
  #45  
Old 14.08.2012, 10:34
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Re: Protecting Non-smokers - Referendum Sep 23, 2012

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I am sorry but restaurants and offices are NOT "private" places but PUBLIC places even if privately owned. And as lots of managers of pubs and restaurants and cafés are smokers, the "market" would be irrelevant. If two persons out of 40 smoke, you have a smoker place.
This is a matter of definition; it could very well be that “public places” are
defined by law in the way you describe, namely such that the term is tailored
to include arbitrary classes of private land and business.

This thread, however, is not only about what the law is but also what we think
it ought to be. And in my opinion, private property cannot be “public” in any
meaningful sense; restaurants, grocery stores, banks and shoe repair shops
are/should be no more nor less “public” than e.g. private places of residence.

The only type of business which is not subject to market discipline is that which
thrives under state monopoly, and, perhaps to a lesser extent, that which
receives state subsidies. The rest is at the mercy of customers; the restaurant
owner would naturally (other things being equal) see his profits decrease were
enough of his customers to prioritize in favor of smoke-free dining.
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  #46  
Old 14.08.2012, 10:46
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Re: Protecting Non-smokers - Referendum Sep 23, 2012

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This is a matter of definition; it could very well be that “public places” are
defined by law in the way you describe, namely such that the term is tailored
to include arbitrary classes of private land and business.

This thread, however, is not only about what the law is but also what we think
it ought to be. And in my opinion, private property cannot be “public” in any
meaningful sense; restaurants, grocery stores, banks and shoe repair shops
are/should be no more nor less “public” than e.g. private places of residence.
Have you lived in Switzerland very long? The concept of private property is very different here - for a great example, see the Wanderweg system, in which hiking paths cross farmland and across people's backyards, without anyone batting an eyelash.
  #47  
Old 14.08.2012, 10:47
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Re: Protecting Non-smokers - Referendum Sep 23, 2012

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The rest is at the mercy of customers; the restaurant
owner would naturally (other things being equal) see his profits decrease were
enough of his customers to prioritize in favor of smoke-free dining.
being totally different, the states vs Switzerland, so who knows what would happen if a law passed like in the states. Two places I have information on several pubs, Seattle and Iowa... in both places several of the owners of the pubs visited stated that they were totally against the smoking ban, but later very glad it passed, as their restaurants were getting visited to capacity more often as families with kids and anti-smokers were frequenting their establishments way more often... whether that translates into profits is a matter of management... as it is very hard to make tons of money running a restaurant. As a friend of mine that is a restaurant owner told me.
  #48  
Old 14.08.2012, 13:17
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Re: Protecting Non-smokers - Referendum Sep 23, 2012

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Nope, the best way is to make them smoke cigars and inhale!

Tom
Way too funny! When I was 5, our neighbour snuck me a puff on his cigar which was soooo disgusting so between that and having to pick up my parent's ashtrays from the night before as a chore, I never tried a smoke myself even though all my friends in school smoked!
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  #49  
Old 14.08.2012, 18:41
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Re: Protecting Non-smokers - Referendum Sep 23, 2012

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Have you lived in Switzerland very long? The concept of private property is very different here - for a great example, see the Wanderweg system, in which hiking paths cross farmland and across people's backyards, without anyone batting an eyelash.
I wonder if the law requires owners of farmland and backyards to allow
hikers to cross their property. If that is not the case, they might simply
be content with the current arrangement, and for a number of reasons.

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being totally different, the states vs Switzerland, so who knows what would happen if a law passed like in the states. Two places I have information on several pubs, Seattle and Iowa... in both places several of the owners of the pubs visited stated that they were totally against the smoking ban, but later very glad it passed, as their restaurants were getting visited to capacity more often as families with kids and anti-smokers were frequenting their establishments way more often... whether that translates into profits is a matter of management... as it is very hard to make tons of money running a restaurant. As a friend of mine that is a restaurant owner told me.
Forcing businesses to provide exactly the kind of service the majority of
participating voters happen to prefer at the time of voting is not what I
would call a characteristic of a particularly tolerant society.

Implicit in the support for smoking bans is the notion that non-smokers
have a “right” to smoke-free conditions within more or less any private
premises they decide to enter. Such a right is, in my opinion, a complete
fallacy.

If smoke-free dining was a big enough issue for a big enough number of
consumers and/or employees, restaurants would prohibit smoking. That
is exactly how it was in my home country before anti-smoking laws were
passed: some restaurants allowed it, other didn’t.
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  #50  
Old 14.08.2012, 19:03
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Re: Protecting Non-smokers - Referendum Sep 23, 2012

It amazes me that for such an educated, environmentally conscious group in Switzerland/Germany that there are so many smokers (even young, young kids). My kids are dumb-founded. I love many things about Switzerland, but when I return to the US, and I smell stale cigarettes/ashtrays - it will sadly remind me of Switzerland. I believe smoking should be allowed in the smoking Fumar restaurants - I think the bans inside have pushed the smokers outdoors, so that as I wait to buses/trams or walk I am forever shrouded or walking through clouds of smoke. As there is rarely air conditioning, places like fitness centers or other areas that have opened windows near sidewalks bring smoke inside. If someone wants to smoke, that is their freedom (just as if they don't want to wear a bike helmet)... but when you have to stay inside to avoid breathing/smelling the persistent, stomach-sickening smoke, I believe there should be enclosed areas somewhere that smokers can smoke.
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Old 14.08.2012, 20:02
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Re: Protecting Non-smokers - Referendum Sep 23, 2012

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Way too funny! When I was 5, our neighbour snuck me a puff on his cigar which was soooo disgusting so between that and having to pick up my parent's ashtrays from the night before as a chore, I never tried a smoke myself even though all my friends in school smoked!
when i was 5 the neighborhood 12 year olds forced us to smoke so we couldn't tell (as we were now equally "guilty"). Between that and losing a few relatives to smoking related diseases was never a chance I would take it up.
  #52  
Old 14.08.2012, 20:03
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Re: Protecting Non-smokers - Referendum Sep 23, 2012

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I... but when you have to stay inside to avoid breathing/smelling the persistent, stomach-sickening smoke, I believe there should be enclosed areas somewhere that smokers can smoke.
Yup!

ps Love the Buckeye!
  #53  
Old 14.08.2012, 20:19
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Re: Protecting Non-smokers - Referendum Sep 23, 2012

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I wonder if the law requires owners of farmland and backyards to allow
hikers to cross their property. If that is not the case, they might simply
be content with the current arrangement, and for a number of reasons.


Forcing businesses to provide exactly the kind of service the majority of
participating voters happen to prefer at the time of voting is not what I
would call a characteristic of a particularly tolerant society.

Implicit in the support for smoking bans is the notion that non-smokers
have a “right” to smoke-free conditions within more or less any private
premises they decide to enter. Such a right is, in my opinion, a complete
fallacy.

If smoke-free dining was a big enough issue for a big enough number of
consumers and/or employees, restaurants would prohibit smoking. That
is exactly how it was in my home country before anti-smoking laws were
passed: some restaurants allowed it, other didn’t.
equally implicit in the current regulations is that smokers have the right to pollute someones air sitting right next to them. I will move or leave a restaurant if a smoker is close by, do I need to inform management of my decision so they can update their statistics. I dont blame the smoker its currently their "right" but I dont want to smell it.

I doubt any restaurant has the capability of calculating the marginal benefit/ or loss of banning/ allowing smoking. Its great in theory but its just economic theory.

My GUESS would be it would not work as well for bar restaurants as the example above from the US. I just think there are more % of smokers here.

I think it would be great if there was a mix of smoking and non smoking restaurants and then you can pick as please.

Of course this vote can go in the smokers favour and that would indicate people like to smoke which wouldn't really be a surprise here.
  #54  
Old 14.08.2012, 20:37
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Re: Protecting Non-smokers - Referendum Sep 23, 2012

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as I wait to buses/trams or walk I am forever shrouded or walking through clouds of smoke. As there is rarely air conditioning, places like fitness centers or other areas that have opened windows near sidewalks bring smoke inside. If someone wants to smoke, that is their freedom (just as if they don't want to wear a bike helmet)... but when you have to stay inside to avoid breathing/smelling the persistent, stomach-sickening smoke, I believe there should be enclosed areas somewhere that smokers can smoke.
Are we living in the same town? I rarely pass through clouds of stomach-sickening smoke although I do see people smoking (I'm currently a non-smoker but have done so in the past).

As for air-conditioned fitness centres, I'm sure you can find plenty in Basel. There's a place (or was a place) just off Steinen that I used to go to in the 90s. It's on the fifth floor with a rooftop swimming pool. No smoke there.

(Naturally I'm against further smoking restrictions, but the Swiss citizens must vote as they wish on this).
  #55  
Old 14.08.2012, 20:48
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Re: Protecting Non-smokers - Referendum Sep 23, 2012

I think smokers should have to wear a contained mask with something like a snorkel that the smoke can escape above the head maybe 50cm.

Problem solved.

PS I am patenting the snorkel like device
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Old 14.08.2012, 23:00
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Re: Protecting Non-smokers - Referendum Sep 23, 2012

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Meanwhile, I am planning to start growing tobacco next year, to supply my friends!

Tom
You mean to supply your friends south of the border who suffer from those high cigarettes prices there
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Old 14.08.2012, 23:13
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Re: Protecting Non-smokers - Referendum Sep 23, 2012

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I am patenting the snorkel like device
And I am patenting "Eau de Cigarette" perfume, cologne, body-wash, and room freshener!

Tom
  #58  
Old 14.08.2012, 23:15
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Re: Protecting Non-smokers - Referendum Sep 23, 2012

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This is a matter of definition; it could very well be that “public places” are
defined by law in the way you describe, namely such that the term is tailored
to include arbitrary classes of private land and business.

This thread, however, is not only about what the law is but also what we think
it ought to be. And in my opinion, private property cannot be “public” in any
meaningful sense; restaurants, grocery stores, banks and shoe repair shops
are/should be no more nor less “public” than e.g. private places of residence.

The only type of business which is not subject to market discipline is that which
thrives under state monopoly, and, perhaps to a lesser extent, that which
receives state subsidies. The rest is at the mercy of customers; the restaurant
owner would naturally (other things being equal) see his profits decrease were
enough of his customers to prioritize in favor of smoke-free dining.
For ages, a majority of non-smokers in ALL restaurants got dominated by a minority of smokers. There were practically no smoke-free places. Interestingly enough, it was the Federal Railways who gradually yielded to the pressures of the market by first reducing the smokers waggons and then giving them up alltogether. It was the other way round, the non-smokers could not threaten with anything as there were no smoke-free places, while the smokers COULD threaten to change to another place.

Sure, in the 1950ies and early 60ies, when a majority of adults WERE smokers, smoking in restaurants was simply normal
  #59  
Old 14.08.2012, 23:34
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Re: Protecting Non-smokers - Referendum Sep 23, 2012

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It amazes me that for such an educated, environmentally conscious group in Switzerland/Germany that there are so many smokers (even young, young kids). My kids are dumb-founded. I love many things about Switzerland, but when I return to the US, and I smell stale cigarettes/ashtrays - it will sadly remind me of Switzerland. I believe smoking should be allowed in the smoking Fumar restaurants - I think the bans inside have pushed the smokers outdoors, so that as I wait to buses/trams or walk I am forever shrouded or walking through clouds of smoke. As there is rarely air conditioning, places like fitness centers or other areas that have opened windows near sidewalks bring smoke inside. If someone wants to smoke, that is their freedom (just as if they don't want to wear a bike helmet)... but when you have to stay inside to avoid breathing/smelling the persistent, stomach-sickening smoke, I believe there should be enclosed areas somewhere that smokers can smoke.
Well, your argument does not hold water. First of all, the smoking bans in the USA came after 2000, but my extensive four visits to the USA were in 1976 and 82 and 87 and 97, and while there WERE many smoke-free places, it in general was not smoke-free. And THIS map




gives an idea about realities. If I look back, my last visit to the USA lead me to the states of South Carolina, Georgia, Louisiana and Texas, with the nice exception of Louisiana still "paffer states"
  #60  
Old 14.08.2012, 23:53
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Re: Protecting Non-smokers - Referendum Sep 23, 2012

I think a total ban in restaurants and bars would be quite a good thing, but I agree wholeheartedly with those who say that a ban in railway stations and bus stops would be far more useful. Zürich HB is utterly horrific on a Friday or Saturday night. You can barely see through the smoke.

History shows us that it would work. When I first arrived in Switzerland the trains were truly vile. Now nobody would dream of smoking on a train and it's so much nicer. People would adapt very quickly, and pictures of people smoking in the hauptbahnhof would seem like they belonged in another century. Which they do.

Of course, in a perfect world, it would be good to help the youth find something more interesting to do than to hang around in the hauptbahnhof necking energy drinks and smoking of an evening.
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