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  #81  
Old 13.08.2012, 09:12
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

Being myself a person who experienced the joys of having an abusive father, when I had my first child I decided to educate myself, take a position and decide if spanking/smacking was a real option for discipline.

The book I liked the most was "Setting Limits with Your Strong-Willed Child..." from Robert J. MacKenzie, where the drawbacks of spanking are discussed, ineffectiveness and escalation among them. Beter options and techniques are discussed, for example logical consequences.
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  #82  
Old 13.08.2012, 09:15
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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As soon as you raise your hand against your child you have gone too far...a minor slaps leads to a moderate slap which leads to a severe slap etc.

And often parents are upset when they "slap" their children, which is a very bad combination.

If you have to use physical measures to discipline your child you have failed as a parent.

Since the whole thing is a grey zone, was it grabbing? was it hard? etc. And even if the child will not get bruises he will other traumas.

Take your time from early ages to explain to your child, it's a process that take many years and you have to repeat over and over,
but people want the "fast way"...how sad.

For me its weird, slapping the most precious thing you have accomplish in your life...don't get it...
When I went to sleep last night I felt on an island.. I am glad to see others are saying (maybe differently) what I was saying

hitting a child... why would you have one if your answer to a problem is managed in such a manner?!?!?!?!

I have friends who grew up in completely different environments than I did, never hit, spanked, abused in any manner... they are well adjusted, very mature, respectful adults.... to me, this is how life should be. teaching children at a very early age they will be scolded for wrong doing not only makes them defensive, but puts blinders on what they will and will not do.
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  #83  
Old 13.08.2012, 09:17
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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Not with normal parents.
so, "normal" parents hit their kids... that is amazing information, thanks for letting all the rest know they are not normal, they are extraordinary and should be thanked for being that way
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  #84  
Old 13.08.2012, 09:21
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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I was spanked as a child, and I'm not deeply traumatised. Nor am I a moron, thank-you. Neither are my sisters.
is that a general consensus or your opinion? your name "not all there" counters that point rather well
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Old 13.08.2012, 09:23
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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is that a general consensus or your opinion? your name "not all there" counters that point rather well
And you didn't consider that NotAllThere has perhaps had an arm amputated (i.e. he's not all there)?

This is why I think people who have been in the category of violent sustained child abuse can't give a balanced argument on anything even remotely connected with disciplining children. They are constantly looking for a reason to link everything back to their own agenda.

I don't know why he chose that username but I didn't put two and two together and come up with forty-six.


PS - just for the record; my father did not try to bury me in a hole in the sand...
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Old 13.08.2012, 09:26
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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Inflicting mild discomfort to prevent serious harm. Makes absolute sense to me. You might not agree that it works, but that's up to you. Enough of the slander.
Are you suggesting that most parents who spank only do so when there's an extreme situation where serious harm would have occurred? (i.e. child runs out into street).

Spanking isn't commonly used for general tantrums, fighting with siblings, not listening to parents regarding daily stuff?
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Old 13.08.2012, 09:27
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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im sure it did.... it's clear it didn't occur to you that the mere trauma your child faced while being under and potentially drowning wasn't enough

your actions were a reaction... this to me is where a lot of the problem starts, too many people react without thinking things through. maybe a nice hug, reassurance, and the mere fright would have been enough
The point is, that she didn't know that she was drowning. I was to quick to get her out. By reading your comment, I obviously should have waited until she was drowning. This would have probably given her a much more serious trauma.

I explained to her afterwards why I reacted like this and she got the lesson that parents are human beings and that they can do wrong as well.

Just to answer your last sentence: I wonder if you would be able to make your brain working after such an incident. Of course, in theory you right, but bringing up children has very little to do with theory, but very much with gut feeling and learning by doing.
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Old 13.08.2012, 09:28
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

The most important thing is to be consequent with how you deal with bad...and good...behaviour.

If your child is doing something naughty, you tell them to stop it and why and what will happen if they continue. Whatever you say you will do you MUST follow through with it - be it being sent to their room, no TV whatever.

Also, it is important to praise children for their good behaviour - now and again giving treats if they do something really good.

We've had supermarket tantrums - I just put the trolley to one side and take the child to a quiet place and tell them we're not moving until the tantrum stops. I have long since ceased to be embarassed by tantrums in public - and we get very few these days.

The worst thing is telling a child to stop something and not following up if they continue - something I see happening time and again. Those are the ones who grow up with behavioural problems later on.

The other thing is just having proper routines with regards to sleeping, mealtimes etc early on. Plus we limit things like TV, access to the computer, junk food.

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Old 13.08.2012, 09:45
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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The point is, that she didn't know that she was drowning. I was to quick to get her out. By reading your comment, I obviously should have waited until she was drowning. This would have probably given her a much more serious trauma.

I explained to her afterwards why I reacted like this and she got the lesson that parents are human beings and that they can do wrong as well.

Just to answer your last sentence: I wonder if you would be able to make your brain working after such an incident. Of course, in theory you right, but bringing up children has very little to do with theory, but very much with gut feeling and learning by doing.
i raised two children so I am well aware of how momentary situations take over the brain of thinking... but, still, i never once had the thought (even when my kids were in the most of danger) to hit them. just no value in that.

and it is ridiculous to say I was implying that you wait for your child to drown, you and I both know it wasn't remotely close to what I was saying. but, your scared look a child reads, your panic in getting your child to safety, your child reads... hitting your child because of the incident... well... it isn't something I would have done
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Old 13.08.2012, 09:46
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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The most important thing is to be consequent with how you deal with bad...and good...behaviour.

If your child is doing something naughty, you tell them to stop it and why and what will happen if they continue. Whatever you say you will do you MUST follow through with it - be it being sent to their room, no TV whatever.

Also, it is important to praise children for their good behaviour - now and again giving treats if they do something really good.

We've had supermarket tantrums - I just put the trolley to one side and take the child to a quiet place and tell them we're not moving until the tantrum stops. I have long since ceased to be embarassed by tantrums in public - and we get very few these days.

The worst thing is telling a child to stop something and not following up if they continue - something I see happening time and again. Those are the ones who grow up with behavioural problems later on.

The other thing is just having proper routines with regards to sleeping, mealtimes etc early on. Plus we limit things like TV, access to the computer, junk food.

Cheers,
Nick
You're absolutely right.. and as you were getting to, plenty of exercise will always keep them calm
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Old 13.08.2012, 09:52
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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And you didn't consider that NotAllThere has perhaps had an arm amputated (i.e. he's not all there)?
of course, but that doesn't preclude the possibility that a few screws are not fully secure... I was being ironic is all

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This is why I think people who have been in the category of violent sustained child abuse can't give a balanced argument on anything even remotely connected with disciplining children. They are constantly looking for a reason to link everything back to their own agenda.
and you don't think this blanket statement rules out any possibility of rational thinking by those who have had it worse than others? really? you didn't strike me as narrowminded.

and for the record.. i don't have an agenda, but you clearly labeled me as such. if you actually read the threads, I have been consistent in my comments. hitting a child is wrong in my opinion, start to finish. there isn't a reason for it. but, if you want to call it an agenda that I live in a world where there is less violence (and YES, it is a fact, that it starts in the home), then so be it. thanks for pointing that out

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I don't know why he chose that username but I didn't put two and two together and come up with forty-six.
really? i am not good at math, but I would swear 2+2 = 46

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PS - just for the record; my father did not try to bury me in a hole in the sand...
nope, not likely he did.. and that thought never crossed my mind
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Old 13.08.2012, 09:53
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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and it is ridiculous to say I was implying that you wait for your child to drown, you and I both know it wasn't remotely close to what I was saying. but, your scared look a child reads, your panic in getting your child to safety, your child reads... hitting your child because of the incident... well... it isn't something I would have done
You'd be surprised (or maybe not) what parents do in moments of panic. When I was a toddler I fell down the stairs in front of my mum who was helpless at the top, having just come out of the bathroom to witness me plummeting headlong downstairs.

Her reflex reaction was to chuck the tin of cleaning powder she was holding down the stairs after me which connected with my cheek (ouch! I had a scar for years.). I don't actually remember being hit by a tin of Vim but mum told me about it when I was older. What I do remember was her almost falling in her attempt to get to me then going nuts with love and kisses.

We laugh ourselves daft over it now but she said at the time she didn't know why she threw the tin after me, it was just a reflex. Maybe something for me to grab hold of?

As people have said above - parents are only human and if human fallibility is a reason not to have children then the human race is doomed.
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Old 13.08.2012, 09:54
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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Ok i disagree with you but everybody has the right to their opinion.

So lets say you have the following situation: You are out shopping with your 5 year old. Your hands are full and the kid decides to start throwing stuff off the shelves, You of course stop them, and they decide to just lay on the floor kicking and screaming, and no matter what you say they totally ignore you. What would you do?

I will pull up the little brat, shout at them to stop, and then give a slap on the butt. I dont consider this beating the kid up.
Do what they do in the ad. Throw your stuff on the floor, lay down and start kicking and screaming. Should shock everyone enough that the kid shuts up and behaves.

Otherwise, I would have done pretty much the same as you. Stood him up, told him off (not shouting though) and given him a smack on the bum. Or alternatively, just ignore him and carry on shopping while not going too far away.
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Old 13.08.2012, 09:58
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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As people have said above - parents are only human and if human fallibility is a reason not to have children then the human race is doomed.
ahh.. and we meet a common ground... people react and do things at times. sure, we all make mistakes and I more than most, trust me. that isn't what my point is about. A one time, out of mind experience, is not the issue. Using a slap here, a "pat" there as discipline is where the problem starts and doesn't end. As a form of "getting a child in line" (whatever that means), doesn't need to include physical punishment.. unless, that is, ensuring they eat their peas and carrots, is including in physical punishment
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Old 13.08.2012, 10:05
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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Ok i disagree with you but everybody has the right to their opinion.

So lets say you have the following situation: You are out shopping with your 5 year old. Your hands are full and the kid decides to start throwing stuff off the shelves, You of course stop them, and they decide to just lay on the floor kicking and screaming, and no matter what you say they totally ignore you. What would you do?

I will pull up the little brat, shout at them to stop, and then give a slap on the butt. I dont consider this beating the kid up.
Do you think that using words like "little brat" already sets a tone of disgust? Why have a child if that is how one would refer to the child?

To me this is parenting 101. Let him or her kick and scream, it is a need for attention. When he or she is done, give positive attention for stopping and profess your love to him or her and how proud you are that they stopped. Any parent will tell you (hummmm, maybe not), at some point you don't care what other people think when your kid screams. All kids do it.

What do you get from screaming at them? Seems to me you are only showing them that yelling gets more yelling, which creates more yelling.

A slap on the butt isn't beating up a child, not sure anyone said that. But, it implies it is ok to hit when you don't like something.
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Old 13.08.2012, 10:16
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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a minor slaps leads to a moderate slap which leads to a severe slap etc.
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Not with normal parents.
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so, "normal" parents hit their kids... that is amazing information, thanks for letting all the rest know they are not normal, they are extraordinary and should be thanked for being that way
Totally out of context. To spell it out With normal parents a minor slap does not lead to a moderate slap and does not lead to a severe slap etc.... If for you it does, then yes you are not normal. If your parents did follow this progression, then they are not normal.

Now do you understand?

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is that a general consensus or your opinion? your name "not all there" counters that point rather well
so while you consider any form of physical chastisement should be treated as criminal child abuse, you think personal abuse toward a perfect stranger who's trying to engage you in rational argument, is acceptable. At this point I call TROLL!

Regarding tantrums - totally ignoring it works best. (Which is why Sashimiso the Troll is on my ignore list).
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  #97  
Old 13.08.2012, 10:28
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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so while you consider any form of physical chastisement should be treated as criminal child abuse, you think personal abuse toward a perfect stranger who's trying to engage you in rational argument, is acceptable. At this point I call TROLL!
troll call all you like, but you clearly didn't read all of my comments... further, if you read your post... explaining to me how I should explain my perspective (this is from your earlier post to me) is along the same lines

i ask you, in your rational engagement of an argument, show me once where I said "any form of physical" punishment is criminal child abuse. and you call me a troll? you turn my words into something I didn't say. fact is: it is abuse, as innocuous as many like to say. I didn't say it is punishable by law as many cultures do allow it. I merely said it is wrong, and unnecessary. period.

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Old 13.08.2012, 10:35
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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Do you think that using words like "little brat" already sets a tone of disgust? Why have a child if that is how one would refer to the child?

To me this is parenting 101. Let him or her kick and scream, it is a need for attention. When he or she is done, give positive attention for stopping and profess your love to him or her and how proud you are that they stopped. Any parent will tell you (hummmm, maybe not), at some point you don't care what other people think when your kid screams. All kids do it.

What do you get from screaming at them? Seems to me you are only showing them that yelling gets more yelling, which creates more yelling.

A slap on the butt isn't beating up a child, not sure anyone said that. But, it implies it is ok to hit when you don't like something.
Well we have different opinions. You think that all physical punishment is wrong and i think that sometimes its nesessary. For me parenting 101 says you are the boss and the kid better realise that otherwise it will be trouble. Whatever you say wont change my mind or make me think im wrong so lets just agree to disagree shall we?
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Old 13.08.2012, 10:38
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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Well, it's a good thing more people don't take the Bible literally, because it says that:

If a child talks disrespectfully to his/her parents, then the child should be taken out to the edge of the village and stoned to death.
Where exactly in the Bible is that quote?... if I may ask.

I have read "Spare the rod, you spoil the child" - and "Children honour you parents". About killing children I have never read in the Bible.

Interesting. Also, which Bible did you read that in? ... there are quite a few "versions" other than the King James.
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Old 13.08.2012, 10:44
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

All of my most consciously significant memories of my parents for my behavioral and moral backbone have been them explaining things in a way that made sense to me (in a manner appropriate for my age), them being consistent and fair in consequences for my actions, and them setting a good example by their own actions and how they interact with others.

Parents are human beings and make mistakes, I understand that. But I have no less right to share my experience, and the few times I remember being physically reprimanded for my actions (usually a spanking) have been some of the most traumatic memories of my life. Any feelings of the child's personal guilt or lesson learned get superseded by fear and powerlessness. Your parents are all you have in this world, and for a moment (in a developing mind that has a hazy concept of time, that can be a looong moment) to perceive them as this temper-controlled towering giant that has you at his/her physical mercy is something I have a hard time seeing as justifiable to inflict on a child. I'm trying to think of a positive consequence or long-term effects of my relatively-tame physical reprimands and no matter how I spin it I'm at a bit a bit of a loss. I am a reasonable and an unhistrionic person as you can imagine, but I can't describe those moments in any other way except like living a monster movie, except the monster is your parent.

I don't know if there are parents that are able to dish it out in the "right" doses that don't leave scars, but I don't see any good reasons to justify it or rationalize it. I know parents are sensitive about the f-word (failure) and no I don't think they should be treated as criminals, but in my opinion all parents (and, you know, the children) would be much better served if every physical reprimand was treated as what it is, a temporary failure of parenting to be improved upon in the future, instead of something that "wasn't that bad" or that was somehow justified in the spur of the moment. Your kids are a fraction of your size, aren't fully mentally developed, are almost completely dependent on you for their survival, and trust you implicitly (depending on their age, you're the only constant in the world they can trust). It's not an accusation and no one is dismissing how difficult parenting can be, but if the prevalent logic towards crime is "don't blame the victim", can you really imagine a more perfect victim than one that fits the above criteria.

But hey, we were all spanked as kids and it taught us some manners, amIright?!

Last edited by Russkov; 13.08.2012 at 11:02.
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