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  #101  
Old 13.08.2012, 11:45
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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Where exactly in the Bible is that quote?... if I may ask.
Deuteronomy 21 18-21

Aka the fun part of the old testament.

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If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.
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  #102  
Old 13.08.2012, 11:52
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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Being myself a person who experienced the joys of having an abusive father, when I had my first child I decided to educate myself, take a position and decide if spanking/smacking was a real option for discipline.

The book I liked the most was "Setting Limits with Your Strong-Willed Child..." from Robert J. MacKenzie, where the drawbacks of spanking are discussed, ineffectiveness and escalation among them. Beter options and techniques are discussed, for example logical consequences.
MacKenzie is fantastic.

And it is not just parents, who apparently for human reasons, often flip. Offloading sucks, even more if it is done against somebody small and defenceless.

I just witnessed a grandma who was clearly not in control over her two little grandkids. She didn't hit, but yelled, pulled them violently by arms and clothes, instead of getting herself in control. The kids were your usual 2 and 5yr old curious kids, no real naughtiness. It was nasty to watch so I moved right next to them. She calmed down, but god knows what happens with those babes when nobody is looking..

It's not really the strict parents who hit their kids' bums once a blue moon because they are trying to prevent some future danger and over do the worrying and scenarios, don't have time to pull aside and do the talk, that would make me worried, though.

It's the grown ups who are not in control when they punish that irk me. Anger issues are serious. A pop on the butt does not have to be done in anger, but as a calm consequence, as weird as it sounds. I wouldn't do it, but understand when people do, as long as they know what they are doing. But punishing in anger, because adults do not know how to control their emotions, be it anger or fear, gives a pretty horrible lesson for the kid to learn.

Teachers always recognize kids who were hit instead of parented, or those who behave well because they are afraid of physically stronger adult, not because they would know behaving is a good, socially desired mode of existence.

I was always against annoying any environment with my parenting, or my child having behavior issues that would bother others. But I personally have most tolerance towards those who also opt for reasonable, probably lengthier ways to discipline their child, even if they should bother me in public or ask me for help. As long as the lesson is there. I am not sure what lesson is there if we hit.

It wasn't time outs or hitting that really worked in critical moments, but removing my child from public eye where we could sort things out in peace, denying some benefits and immediate fun she was looking forward to and explaining and explaining. All that explaining paid out the most, later on. They are smart creatures. There are very few kids who get evil just for the hell of it, though, most have some underlying things to process..It's good to help them.
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  #103  
Old 13.08.2012, 11:57
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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What happens when you run out of stones? Can old tin cans or leaves be substituted?
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Well, it's a good thing more people don't take the Bible literally, because it says that:

If a child talks disrespectfully to his/her parents, then the child should be taken out to the edge of the village and stoned to death.
I would have employed God's bountiful resources at hand and thrown the brat into the river. Not strictly in keeping with stoning as required to be a Good Christian (TM), but then again, I am a Methodist.
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  #104  
Old 13.08.2012, 12:19
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

I was spanked plenty as a kid, and while I don't think it particularly scarred me, getting chased around the house by a furious parent with a belt isn't exactly an experience I'd like to replicate for my daughter. Personally, I will never hit my children, ever. First off, I'm 100kg and 190 cm, I don't really think I need to hit another human that weighs less than my leg and is barely taller than my knee. Secondly, what am I teaching my kid by hitting them? It's ok to hit someone weaker than you? Violence solves problems? How can I tell my kid hitting isn't ok while I hit them myself?
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  #105  
Old 13.08.2012, 12:36
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

The thing about corporal punishment, it gets tricky when you tell your child when they are small, don't hit others, it is bad. Then you gotta punish them, while some resort to physical menace, others to withdrawing attention or isolation, taking stuff away..Then you have to tell them to protect weaker ones, girls and babies and animals, and all that, then they witness little kids being smacked outside and public ignoring it. I think it is often confusing for kids.

All of us would help a young woman being abused in public. But when a kiddo does something that according to their parents merits being hit we say it is for the sake of the kiddo's character. It often is not, just means their parents got mad and not if it was justified. I think that's why loads of people will just simply say, corporal punishment is outlived.

Calling names is the same thing. Do to your child as you want them do to you, later, when you are in diapers. And as you want them to let others treat them. You set the norm they will expect and respect, later on.

There are finer ways to install respect and showing a child who sets the rules. Voice and look works wonders if one sticks to being consistent and does not work with threats too much and without consequences. Kids usually respect rules when we show them clearly that we all ought to respect rules and how it is done and how everyone gets into troubles, including them, the whole family, if the rules aren't respected. There are also developmental phases that work better for pushing discipline and respect, if we focused on good timing and think ahead, it's easier. What helps too, is involving other authorities, larger family, etc. Teachers love being asked for advice, they know your kids well.
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  #106  
Old 13.08.2012, 12:39
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

This thread as it runs its course is quite simply revealing the fact that:

1) There are huge risks to using any form of violence towards your children
2) Even those that advocate seem to know it is wrong by the way they tell their little stories
3) People will find any excuse to bully the defenseless, those same people I have read comments by in other threads, wondering why the world is so fvcked up.

The is really no excuse for it.
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  #107  
Old 13.08.2012, 12:53
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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This thread as it runs its course is quite simply revealing the fact that...
... you're so opinionated and certain of yourself that you're quite prepared to dictate your moral high-ground as the one true path to child-raising, and absolutely refuse to counter any dissent from that.

Good trolling, though. Caught quite a few minnows in your net.
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  #108  
Old 13.08.2012, 12:54
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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As long as the lesson is there. I am not sure what lesson is there if we hit.

It wasn't time outs or hitting that really worked in critical moments, but removing my child from public eye where we could sort things out in peace, denying some benefits and immediate fun she was looking forward to and explaining and explaining. All that explaining paid out the most, later on. They are smart creatures. There are very few kids who get evil just for the hell of it, though, most have some underlying things to process..It's good to help them.
That is my experience, too. Young kids do understand a lot more than most adults think. And what they appreciate is if you treat them respectful, and for me that does neither include yelling, nor beating, because it is disrespectful. Toddlers too young to understand danger - put safety plugs in your sockets, keep the kitchen door closed when cooking or install an obstacle, secure stairs with gates.
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Old 13.08.2012, 12:59
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

For the Bible bashers - how many young children are drunkards? I think the text might be referring to offspring who are now adults. In fact, relativising to the modern world, it could be seen to reinforcing the idea that parents are responsible for how their kids turn out. (An idea which is sometimes true, and sometimes not, in my view).

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Teachers always recognize kids who were hit instead of parented
Excellent point.

I'm opposed to the demonisation or criminalisation of parents who use physical chastisement per se. I'm also opposed to parents who hit in lieu of parenting - that's just abuse. Consistent, caring , loving, respectful boundary setting - that's what matters.

It's also worth teaching children that might often is "right" in the real world - so it doesn't come as a shock when they finally leave the nest. Sometimes your kids have to do what you tell them simply because you are their parent!
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  #110  
Old 13.08.2012, 13:03
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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That is my experience, too. Young kids do understand a lot more than most adults think. And what they appreciate is if you treat them respectful, and for me that does neither include yelling, nor beating, because it is disrespectful. Toddlers too young to understand danger - put safety plugs in your sockets, keep the kitchen door closed when cooking or install an obstacle, secure stairs with gates.
Yea, very much so, same here..Although I was scared of removing all the danger, since I remembered dear words of my friend who ended up with triplet boys and hellians, she always said - remove all danger and they hurt themselves when they are let loose coz they do not recognize it. She was always anti leash, anti tie down business coz she feared for them.

I let my child eat and drink from glass dishes and cut veggies with me when she was tiny tiny, hahaha, it felt like Frankenstain lab at times, but it worked so well. They learn by experience, we have to provide it for them. Pain caused by a loved one is pointless, they get numb. And you see the numbness in weird pedagogical situations, too. Hit kids hit. I am trying to reprogram my child that it is ok to defend oneself, not start a fight, but defense is good..That's another side of the anti hit coin, though, your child will not resort to violence to such extent of being bullied later.

Being hit only twice I think made me remember it all my life, but not really the humiliation but how badly mom and dad felt about themselves afterwards. It was crap, I felt bad for them, not me.
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  #111  
Old 13.08.2012, 13:22
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

There are certainly strong opinions on both sides of this argument and valid points to both.

I'm sure that as a toddler my Mom spanked me on the bottom for minor toddler infractions and I don't even remember it. As far as I can recall, my Dad only spanked my once, when at about 5-6 years old.

I had disappeared for a few hours to go over to a neighbor kids house without telling anyone where I was going. I wasn't being especially naughty, nor was I trying to willfully disobey my parents. My Dad could have tried to explain to me how I scared he and my Mom were when they couldn't find me, how I could have gotten hit by a car, or how I might have been stolen by a stranger who wanted to abuse me. I doubt very much whether at that age I would have understood the seriousness of any of those concepts. Instead he spanked me, I cried, didn't like it, and I never did it again. When I got older and other forms of punishment became more effective, then the spanking stopped.

During my pre-teen years, a spanking would have been welcome over the dreaded "no TV for you" situation. My mom was wise enough to have a clear objective, i.e. my kid is doing something that I don't want him to do, what negative consequence will make him stop, and ultimately not do that again? In my case, whatever form it took, negative reinforcement for bad behavior was always balanced with lots of praise and high expectations for appropriate actions. As a result, by the time I was in my mid teens, I pretty much wanted to behave in a way that earned the respect of my parents.

I've tried to carry that concept forward in my own parenting. When my kids were little, they very much lived in the moment (I think that all kids do), It wold have been pointless to try to reason with them using adult logic. Trying to reason with a toddler is like trying to reason with a puppy. It simply isn't going to work. My kids certainly got a swat on the bum when they needed it, and then we moved on. When they got old enough to understand the bigger picture, then the punishments and reward/praise both became more abstract. On the punishment side, this usually takes the form of grounding, No Xbox, TV, no internet, etc.

My children aren't bad kids, and they aren't maladjusted. They are also not angels. When they fight with each other, disrespect an adult, fail to do their chores, lie about studying, or anything else that kids try, I would be doing them a gross injustice to just say "pretty please don't do that again."

When they have misbehave, we talk about what happened, why I think that it was inappropriate, and what consequence that behavior will lead to in the future. Example: "you lied about XYZ. Lying is wrong because if it becomes a habit, people will learn to not believe you, and it will damage your friendships. You may or may not believe me right now, and that's fine. All you have to understand now is that if you lie to me again, the punishment will be no Xbox for a month."

Let me be very clear here; I don't abuse, slap or beat my children, nor do I call them names or treat them as stupid. They know that I love them very much, but they also know that I believe my job as a parent is to teach them that each action, whether good or bad, has a consequence. If I let them think that rules don't apply to them, that for some reason they are entitled to behave anyway that seems easiest in the moment, or that everything is always somebody else's fault, then I am setting them up for a life of struggle and heartache.

Previous posters have implied that if a kid grows up to be a child pornographer, or criminal of some kind, that it really isn't the fault of the parent. I completely disagree. While parents can't claim 100% of either the credit or the blame for the actions of their children, they (we) play an absolutely vital roll in their development into adulthood. Children have to have boundaries set, or they will find their own, sometimes to their detriment.

Earlier in the thread, someone brought up a quote by Science Fiction author Isaac Asimov, something to the effect of; "Violence is the last resort of the ignorant." While I don't recognize the context of the reference, I doubt very much that it was specifically in in reference as to whether or not you should spank your kids.

I suggest a better quote might be from Robert Heinlein;

(paraphrased) "There is no such thing as a juvenile delinquent, but for every juvenile criminal, there is at least one adult who has been delinquent in their duty to children and society as a whole."

I understand if you don't want to spank your kids, I really do. Your opinion and/or parenting style has largely been formed by your own experience and history, just as mine has. I don't really care if you spank your kids, and if you find a way to discipline and lead your kids into adulthood that works better then I think that's wonderful. But please don't try to stereotype my as an abusive or unenlightened parent because I don't fall on my sword based on your individual ideals.
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  #112  
Old 13.08.2012, 13:34
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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Hit kids hit.
Maybe they do but kids that don't get hit also hit, bite, scratch and pull hair because they don't have the verbal tools to express themselves yet and it's an act of frustration.

My son was a biter for a while but had never been bitten by anyone (not even in jest).

Once they develop adequate communication tools, most of them stop.

You shouldn't always assume that kids using violence have had violence used against them. Often it's easier to simply lamp your daycare-pal over the head with a plastic trumpet and grab his shiny red digger than struggle with working out how to ask for it nicely.
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  #113  
Old 13.08.2012, 13:52
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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This thread as it runs its course is quite simply revealing the fact that:

1) There are huge risks to using any form of violence towards your children
2) Even those that advocate seem to know it is wrong by the way they tell their little stories
3) People will find any excuse to bully the defenseless, those same people I have read comments by in other threads, wondering why the world is so fvcked up.

The is really no excuse for it.
Absolute nonsense.
The world is screwed up because of children being wrapped in cotton wool and not being allowed to grow up in the real world due to pathetic human rights and the PC brigade.

If you look back over the years you will see a severe decline in respect and discipline from children every since they stopped giving the belt in school (referring to the UK).
Children literally get away with murder these days because they know they can. They have zero respect for adults, authority, themselves or where they live.
Of course I am generalising there and the majority of kids are probably good kids but there is certainly no issues in giving a 'naughty' kid a slap around the legs or a clip on the back of their head if they are needing disciplined.

Kids need to be taught discipline and respect from a young age. There is a huge difference in attitude from kids from the 70's to kids nowadays, its frightening and its because of attitudes like yours we have let it get that way.
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  #114  
Old 13.08.2012, 13:54
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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Where exactly in the Bible is that quote?... if I may ask.

I have read "Spare the rod, you spoil the child" - and "Children honour you parents". About killing children I have never read in the Bible.

Interesting. Also, which Bible did you read that in? ... there are quite a few "versions" other than the King James.
What chills me to the bone is the thought that god fearing parents actually did that stuff.
Or is it just allegorist?
I just can't imagine the incandescent god fever it would need for that insanity.
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Old 13.08.2012, 13:58
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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Absolute nonsense.
The world is screwed up because of children being wrapped in cotton wool and not being allowed to grow up in the real world due to pathetic human rights and the PC brigade.

If you look back over the years you will see a severe decline in respect and discipline from children every since they stopped giving the belt in school (referring to the UK).
Children literally get away with murder these days because they know they can. They have zero respect for adults, authority, themselves or where they live.
Of course I am generalising there and the majority of kids are probably good kids but there is certainly no issues in giving a 'naughty' kid a slap around the legs or a clip on the back of their head if they are needing disciplined.

Kids need to be taught discipline and respect from a young age. There is a huge difference in attitude from kids from say the 70's to kids nowadays, its frightening and its because of attitudes like yours we have let it get that way.
To be fair, I don't think this is wholly down to parents not being able to slap their kids. It's a general breakdown in parenting skills and wider social issues. Some of those little scrotes these days would laugh in your face (and probably pull a knife) if you gave them a clip round the ear. Jesus, they'd even "beat the sh1t" (to coin a phrase from this thread) out of a copper given half a chance.
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  #116  
Old 13.08.2012, 14:01
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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To be fair, I don't think this is wholly down to parents not being able to slap their kids. It's a general breakdown in parenting skills and wider social issues. Some of those little scrotes these days would laugh in your face (and probably pull a knife) if you gave them a clip round the ear. Jesus, they'd even "beat the sh1t" (to coin a phrase from this thread) out of a copper given half a chance.
Agree and then its the parents who get the slap

I am joking of course but what you find is that these scrotes parents are generally young as well and have grown up in the time of no corporal punishment and 'lets live off benefits' meaning they have zero respect either.
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Old 13.08.2012, 14:03
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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Absolute nonsense.
The world is screwed up because of children being wrapped in cotton wool and not being allowed to grow up in the real world due to pathetic human rights and the PC brigade.

If you look back over the years you will see a severe decline in respect and discipline from children every since they stopped giving the belt in school (referring to the UK).
Children literally get away with murder these days because they know they can. They have zero respect for adults, authority, themselves or where they live.
Of course I am generalising there and the majority of kids are probably good kids but there is certainly no issues in giving a 'naughty' kid a slap around the legs or a clip on the back of their head if they are needing disciplined.

Kids need to be taught discipline and respect from a young age. There is a huge difference in attitude from kids from the 70's to kids nowadays, its frightening and its because of attitudes like yours we have let it get that way.
I agree that there is a big difference in attitude. I tend to think it's more complex than a spanking issue though. What concerns me is your use of the word "respect." Is it that kids respected their parents more or feared them more? Whilst fear may seem to impart good behavior, my feeling is that it can prevent closeness and trust between parent and child.

Yes, kids do need to be taught respect from a young age. But are you sure spanking is the way to do that?
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  #118  
Old 13.08.2012, 14:09
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

I just want to say that growing up in a Swiss family, being hit was a common part of life. If we misbehaved we got a slap or we had our ears or hair pulled. If we were really really bad we got much more severe beating. It was all commonly accepted. And i would not advise grabbing the arm of a swiss person hitting their kids, thats just down right disrespectful.
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Old 13.08.2012, 14:19
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

Quote:
My son was a biter for a while but had never been bitten by anyone (not even in jest).
It's normal, loads of little kids will.. It's a strong urge we learn to curb when being socialized.
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Old 13.08.2012, 14:20
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

I can't be bothered to read all this polarised debate as it's futlie. Suffice it to say I'm on the side of the chamber that feels the odd hand to bottom introduction by a responsible parent does not constitute abuse... except to those with overly open minds with lofty ideals. I see a massive difference between a corrective wee slap on the bum and a kiddy getting a punch in the head, and it seems pretty obvious to me which would constitute abuse.

I would also say I don't remember seeing as many badly behaved/spoilt toddlers and young kids being lectured by parents while they continue to throw paddies until they go blue in the face (the kids not the parent) as I do now. I've also noticed a huge increase in a new medical syndrome called parental obliviousness, the main symptoms seem to be
- deafness, to the caterwauling of their loin fruit.
- blindness, to the aghast stares of other people at the behaviour of the Errant Loin Fruit,
- loss of motor function, rendering them incapable of restraining or controlling the ELF
- confusion, as to why the blue faced ELF doesn't respond to the reasoned debate they wish to have, or that other watching see anything wrong with their inability to correct/control their ELF's behaviour.

If some of these spoilt/tantrum sorts of behaviour are not corrected it can lead to badly behaved and spoilt teenagers, which is a much more serious social problem for everyone. We have a bunch of 'conditions' now like ODD, ADHD, CD and I wonder how many children get these labels not because they actually have a condition, but are let down by over liberal parenting that fails to set the boundaries that kids need.... just sayin
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