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  #121  
Old 13.08.2012, 14:23
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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Totally out of context. To spell it out With normal parents a minor slap does not lead to a moderate slap and does not lead to a severe slap etc.... If for you it does, then yes you are not normal. If your parents did follow this progression, then they are not normal.
normal...not normal...please...once again if you can't discipline your child without slapping it you failed...there are too many vague definitions, there is only one that can be correct - Don't raise your hand against your child!

Very simple for the "normally" gifted person...

just because YOU didn't had any outspoken issues after you were slapped does not mean that this applies to everyone...although I think that a "normal" child would feel uncomfort being slapped around...
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  #122  
Old 13.08.2012, 14:28
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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...Yes, kids do need to be taught respect from a young age. But are you sure spanking is the way to do that?
...exactly, I want my son to learn respect and what is right and wrong, not because he is a afraid of being beaten or slapped, but because he's learning it from us and will realize it himself...
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  #123  
Old 13.08.2012, 14:33
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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I agree that there is a big difference in attitude. I tend to think it's more complex than a spanking issue though. What concerns me is your use of the word "respect." Is it that kids respected their parents more or feared them more? Whilst fear may seem to impart good behavior, my feeling is that it can prevent closeness and trust between parent and child.

Yes, kids do need to be taught respect from a young age. But are you sure spanking is the way to do that?
Your damn right it was fear but it never stopped me or any of my friends loving our parents any less.

It is also respect which is a two way thing. I grew up in the 70's and we pretty much had a free ride to go and do what we wanted because our parents respected and trusted us, however there was always a line and if you crossed that line you soon knew about it and trust me, you never crossed that line again
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  #124  
Old 13.08.2012, 14:36
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

I said we were due one very soon...
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  #125  
Old 13.08.2012, 14:44
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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...exactly, I want my son to learn respect and what is right and wrong, not because he is a afraid of being beaten or slapped, but because he's learning it from us and will realize it himself...
Children learn best from experience, a positive experience they will want to repeat an negative they will avoid, but that always takes time... and sometimes time is sort or it's maybe extreme.

from my childhood, I was bouncing on the sofa as it was fun, mum said don't as I might fall or rip the sofa, but I carried on. I lost my balance bounced off and cracked my chin on the coffee table and knocked out my 2 front teeth... I didn't do that again. Not because of mum's very valid and reasoned argument about damaging the sofa which meant diddly to me, but because it flippin well hurt.

And before the highly strung start... yes, knocking a kids teeth out i would call abuse
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  #126  
Old 13.08.2012, 14:50
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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once again if you can't discipline your child without slapping it you failed
what makes your opinion so much righter than anyone elses? Are you a world renowned expert on child psychology with absolute proof? What consititutes failure? No hang on, I see your logic.

"If you hit a child you've failed as a parent because hitting a child is evidence of failure"

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there is only one that can be correct - Don't raise your hand against your child!
How do you know? Why is it correct? Just stating it until your blue in the face doesn't make it right!

There is only one way that can be correct - "be nasty to your little boy and beat him when he sneezes. He only does it to annoy because he knows it teases" (Lewis Carroll).

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... except to those with overly open minds with lofty ideals...
It must be the altitude of the high horse - less oxygen so their brains leak out of their open minds.
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  #127  
Old 13.08.2012, 14:51
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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there is only one that can be correct - Don't raise your hand against your child!
In your opinion. Just repeating this like a mantra does not make it right - anyone with other views will still not agree with you.
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  #128  
Old 13.08.2012, 14:51
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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Earlier in the thread, someone brought up a quote by Science Fiction author Isaac Asimov, something to the effect of; "Violence is the last resort of the ignorant." While I don't recognize the context of the reference, I doubt very much that it was specifically in in reference as to whether or not you should spank your kids.
The quote is clear enough, violence is violence. There are better approaches to discipline and education.

The only argument in favor of violence I can think of is to defend yourself.
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  #129  
Old 13.08.2012, 14:55
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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If some of these spoilt/tantrum sorts of behaviour are not corrected it can lead to badly behaved and spoilt teenagers, which is a much more serious social problem for everyone. We have a bunch of 'conditions' now like ODD, ADHD, CD and I wonder how many children get these labels not because they actually have a condition, but are let down by over liberal parenting that fails to set the boundaries that kids need.... just sayin
Exactly, clearly we should beat these verified medical disorders out of children. There were also a whole lot fewer cases of post partum depression, dyslexia, clinical anxeity, OCD, Bipolar disorder, and dementia back in the days when we handed out lobotomies and trepenations left and right.
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  #130  
Old 13.08.2012, 14:57
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

I think Papa Goose's contention is that those medical disorders are caused by not disciplining your kids.

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The quote is clear enough, violence is violence. There are better approaches to discipline and education.

The only argument in favor of violence I can think of is to defend yourself.
Did you see my quote from Lewis Carrol? Quoting the words of a character (Salvor Hardin, mayor of Terminus) from a fictional novel is hardly providing a solid authority.

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  #131  
Old 13.08.2012, 15:01
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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normal...not normal...please...once again if you can't discipline your child without slapping it you failed...there are too many vague definitions, there is only one that can be correct - Don't raise your hand against your child!

Very simple for the "normally" gifted person...

just because YOU didn't had any outspoken issues after you were slapped does not mean that this applies to everyone...although I think that a "normal" child would feel uncomfort being slapped around...
I have read some nonsense on this site and that one line goes straight to number one.
My parents slapped me and disciplined me when needed.
I am now a professional businessman earning good money in Switzerland, who has a beautiful family, jas never been in trouble with the police, was successful at school, is good at sport, has plenty of friends, who still has a close loving relationship with my parents etc etc etc

You think my parents failed? I think your a fool.
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  #132  
Old 13.08.2012, 15:10
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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I have read some nonsense on this site and that one line goes straight to number one.
My parents slapped me and disciplined me when needed.
I am now a professional businessman earning good money in Switzerland, who has a beautiful family, jas never been in trouble with the police, was successful at school, is good at sport, has plenty of friends, who still has a close loving relationship with my parents etc etc etc

You think my parents failed? I think your a fool.
Not sure I agree with your perspective.. I was more than slapped...

I have four college degrees, I have taught at the college level part time on the side, I am a successful professional at one of the larger companies in Switzerland making a good salary, also never had any problems with the law,etc. Ok, I don't have plenty of friends, but that could just be me thinking I don't, idk.

I am certain my parents failed.. but, it doesn't mean I had to...

Calling someone names because you don't agree with them is a failure imho.
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  #133  
Old 13.08.2012, 15:16
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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Exactly, clearly we should beat these verified medical disorders out of children. There were also a whole lot fewer cases of post partum depression, dyslexia, clinical anxeity, OCD, Bipolar disorder, and dementia back in the days when we handed out lobotomies and trepenations left and right.

Here we go... cue the over simplification and pushing to the extreme from the other side of the chamber.

My opinion is simple really, some kids are great and respond to verbal coaching and correction, some are the proverbial back seat Johnny who need a different approach, and some have a condition that may require medical assistance. What I'm saying is those conditions may sometimes be conveniently used to cover parental short-commings, and labelling a child as having a 'condition' may lead another Ritalin junkie who may be subject to some form of unnecessary social stigma later... but as you mentioned it was trepanation.... was yours successful
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  #134  
Old 13.08.2012, 15:16
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

It's fun to see all the main points of public discourse - complaining about things not being what they used to be, disobedient youthz, flaming the opponent, even for quoting, cheers me up.

I think violence against kids, no matter by whom, parents, teachers, nannies will never be only a private, personal thing. It is not kids not being hit these days or hippie parents (it seems to me the hippie disease is better than it is used to be, anyways) that would make situ the way it is, but lack of involvement. We obviously interpret involvement differently. But it was lovely to read here if one sees a stressed out parent who is about to whack, I would jump in and offer help, too. It is often enough just to distract in order to give the adult time to pull themselves together, take a breather. I always thought kids' time outs are mainly for adults to calm themselves, anyways.

What maxvoegtli wrote reminded me what my grandparents used to say about their childhood.
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  #135  
Old 13.08.2012, 15:21
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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I've also noticed a huge increase in a new medical syndrome called parental obliviousness, the main symptoms seem to be
- deafness, to the caterwauling of their loin fruit.
- blindness, to the aghast stares of other people at the behaviour of the Errant Loin Fruit,
- loss of motor function, rendering them incapable of restraining or controlling the ELF
- confusion, as to why the blue faced ELF doesn't respond to the reasoned debate they wish to have, or that other watching see anything wrong with their inability to correct/control their ELF's behaviour.

If some of these spoilt/tantrum sorts of behaviour are not corrected it can lead to badly behaved and spoilt teenagers, which is a much more serious social problem for everyone. We have a bunch of 'conditions' now like ODD, ADHD, CD and I wonder how many children get these labels not because they actually have a condition, but are let down by over liberal parenting that fails to set the boundaries that kids need.... just sayin
Just to get this right: I am in no way one of the let-loose-liberal parents. Just like you and many other people I get extremely annoyed by parental behavior that you describe. And of course there is no need to discuss just everything. Sometimes I told my kids don't do that and they asked why and I said because I am your mother and I told you so.

I would never have tolerated selfish behaviour around other people, like running around wild on a train (one of my favorites) or in a restaurant or screaming and shouting in public places or creating a scene in a shop. It was simply not acceptable and they knew that from a young age. But I didn't have to slap them for it.

And now as teenagers I sometimes can't believe how very little trouble they are and how well they get ahead to becoming adults. What I do believe, however, is that is has to do with the respect as individuals they always got from me, and my daughter (now 17) sometimes tells me how different I am from the mothers of her friends and that I always remain calm (no use crying over spilt milk, my opinion) and she can always come to me with problems and she has never been afraid to tell me things. Same goes for my son (15 years).
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  #136  
Old 13.08.2012, 15:47
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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Exactly, clearly we should beat these verified medical disorders out of children. There were also a whole lot fewer cases of post partum depression, dyslexia, clinical anxeity, OCD, Bipolar disorder, and dementia back in the days when we handed out lobotomies and trepenations left and right.
for every "verified medical disorder", there is a corresponding pharmaceutical available. I'm sure, of course, that this is merely coincidence.
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Old 13.08.2012, 15:50
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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Not sure I agree with your perspective.. I was more than slapped...

I have four college degrees, I have taught at the college level part time on the side, I am a successful professional at one of the larger companies in Switzerland making a good salary, also never had any problems with the law,etc. Ok, I don't have plenty of friends, but that could just be me thinking I don't, idk.

I am certain my parents failed.. but, it doesn't mean I had to...

Calling someone names because you don't agree with them is a failure imho.
He is saying any parents that hit their child failed, that is a comment only a fool could make.

Of course you are right some people might say their parents failed but being as successful as you are then surely your parents must have done something right?

Last edited by BonBon; 13.08.2012 at 16:06. Reason: Misunderstanding
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  #138  
Old 13.08.2012, 15:57
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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Well we have different opinions. You think that all physical punishment is wrong and i think that sometimes its nesessary. For me parenting 101 says you are the boss and the kid better realise that otherwise it will be trouble. Whatever you say wont change my mind or make me think im wrong so lets just agree to disagree shall we?
For you, it is right.. for me it isn't... yep, that we conclude but ask yourself this question....

If a parent uses your methods to, oh, i don't know, keep a child in line... at some point, when the child sees the parent raising his/her hand and the child flinches... do you consider that an ok response for the child to have? I don't.

... and for the other who coined me a troll (the one who groaned, sent me a message, and added me to ignore - all because I have an opinion).. I never once was trying to pull in garbage commentary to start a forum riot.. the OP posted a message about abusing a child, and I added my comments to clarify anytime a parent hits a child is a form of abuse, regardless of how much or little it is. and.. to be clear, not just because of that act, but what it teaches that child long term....

if, clarifying my points makes me a troll.. then so be it... or even arsetrollio is fine... i frankly do not mind... id rather be a troll for standing up for the freedom of a child growing up uninhibited than building barriers.
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  #139  
Old 13.08.2012, 16:01
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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He is saying any parents that hit their child failed, that is a comment only a fool could make.

Of course you are right some people might say their parents failed but if you are as successful as you say are then surely your parents must have done something right?
i guess people could make up stories about what they are and are not.. im happy to PM any info to back up where I work, my education etc.

as for my parents doing something right.. yes, they did.. they threw me out of the house when I was 17 and I learned to live on my own without needing anyone to survive... the gift that keeps on giving.
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Old 13.08.2012, 16:05
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Re: Just saw a mother beating the living sh1t out of her kid in Rhine Falls area...

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i guess people could make up stories about what they are and are not.. im happy to PM any info to back up where I work, my education etc.

as for my parents doing something right.. yes, they did.. they threw me out of the house when I was 17 and I learned to live on my own without needing anyone to survive... the gift that keeps on giving.
Sorry, that maybe came across wrong I was certainly not questioning you, I was simply saying that good parenting can bring success.
Of course not in all cases and your is obviously an extreme example of this.
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