Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life  
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old 06.09.2012, 23:17
Caviarchips's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Basel Stadt
Posts: 3,979
Groaned at 99 Times in 77 Posts
Thanked 6,677 Times in 2,388 Posts
Caviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Not at all, you are certainly free to an alternative viewpoint and the denial of facts presented, that is your right. I have nothing against young earth creationists, flat earthers, or terra-centric believers either.
OK - lets be clear - do I believe that the US Government oversteps its constitutional reach on occasion? Yes. Do I think that all governments do? Yes. Do I think that your "proof" articles are true? Maybe, but the ones I read (not all of them) seem to be selective and biased towards a certain point of view.

However, by writing your questions as you did...

1. Do the federal or cantonal governments of Switzerland regularly spy on their citizens (phone calls, emails, texts, purchases, etc) without suspicion, probable cause, or court order?

2. Can the federal or cantonal governments arrest you without warrant and imprison you without trial merely on the order of some executive authority who deems you a threat (without court oversight)?

3. Similarly, if you are deemed a threat to the government by that executive authority, can you be executed outside of the nation's borders without trial or charges?

4. When travelling into or out of Switzerland, as a citizen, are you required to subject yourself to a pointless security theater administered by a bloated federal agency?

...then you are opening yourself up to charges of hyperbole by implying that these things are part of daily life to usual citizens and that you need to run away to protect yourself from summary execution in Bolivia because you send a text about Mrs Obama's bingo wings.

My point isn't that these things haven't happened in the past, but I think that you exaggerate both the frequency of them, and the likelihood of it happening to anybody you know
The following 4 users would like to thank Caviarchips for this useful post:
  #82  
Old 06.09.2012, 23:27
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Lakewood, CO, USA
Posts: 43
Groaned at 15 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 8 Posts
aedile245 has become a little unpopular
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
There is certainly SOME relation. It costs more to produce said chicken. So surely they are not going to sell it for a lose. Chicken imported from other countries is less expensive, I imagine because it costs less to produce/acquire. No?
You are correct, so long as there are no tariffs in place on that imported chicken. If it is cheaper for Italy, for example, to produce chicken and eggs, and cheaper for CH to produce milk and cheese (comparative advantage), then CH should focus on the latter and Italy on the former and then trade the excess with one another so both can benefit from cheaper products.

If, however, CH wants to protect its domestic chicken industry, it will impose a tariff on those imports to make them more expensive compared to the domestically produced chicken and eggs.

So as other posters have suggested, I'm guessing the higher costs is related to these legislative protectionism schema.
  #83  
Old 06.09.2012, 23:30
dakman's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NYC (heart is split between Switzerland and the Big Apple)
Posts: 1,872
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 901 Times in 543 Posts
dakman has a reputation beyond reputedakman has a reputation beyond reputedakman has a reputation beyond reputedakman has a reputation beyond reputedakman has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Citizen protectionism schema maybe.

Free market works a little differently in CH, for a number of different reasons. First off, Swiss products are always superior goods.
  #84  
Old 06.09.2012, 23:38
Caviarchips's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Basel Stadt
Posts: 3,979
Groaned at 99 Times in 77 Posts
Thanked 6,677 Times in 2,388 Posts
Caviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
There is certainly SOME relation. It costs more to produce said chicken. So surely they are not going to sell it for a lose. Chicken imported from other countries is less expensive, I imagine because it costs less to produce/acquire. No?

OK - so lets say that it costs CHF6 per kilo to produce chicken in Switzerland, and CHF2 per kilo to import chicken from Brazil.

And Migros or Coop knows that consumers will pay CHF10 for Swiss chicken and CHF8 for Brazil chicken.

Will Coop say - "Yes, but we know that Brazil chicken costs chf4 per kilo less to produce, so we will not charge chf8, but chf6 instead?" Of course not - shops charge what people will pay.

Of course, you are right, if it costs CHF6 to produce Swiss chicken and people only want to pay CHF4, then they will not sell it at all. But that is more of a binary decision - either I can or I cannot make money. But as long as you know that it is worth doing, you set the price at the maximum price the consumer will pay (for the volume you wish to sell) and don't worry too much about the cost as long as you can still make the margin you want to make.
The following 2 users would like to thank Caviarchips for this useful post:
  #85  
Old 06.09.2012, 23:38
lost_inbroad's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Town or region
Posts: 11,491
Groaned at 655 Times in 417 Posts
Thanked 16,388 Times in 6,379 Posts
lost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
So as other posters have suggested, I'm guessing the higher costs is related to these legislative protectionism schema.
...and economies of scale and inefficient/outdated operational methods and lack of structured profit maximization and....
This user would like to thank lost_inbroad for this useful post:
  #86  
Old 06.09.2012, 23:46
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Lakewood, CO, USA
Posts: 43
Groaned at 15 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 8 Posts
aedile245 has become a little unpopular
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Citizen protectionism schema maybe.

Free market works a little differently in CH, for a number of different reasons. First off, Swiss products are always superior goods.
Heh, can you actually generalize that? While I agree that the Swiss make many top notch products reknowned throughout the world for high quality, I don't think anyone can generalize that the produce of CH is always superior.

From what I've read through my research, the food for example is actually not all that great, some of those folks I know who have traveled to CH have described it as bland as British food.

I, personally, am not making any pre-judgements until I experience it for myself. I may find the cuisine in Switzerland far better than any food I've ever had in my life... But I may also find it subpar. I won't know until I experience it for myself.

BUT, if the produce of CH is in fact as superior as you suggest, then the free-market would still be in effect because people will pay a premium for high quality, and if the people cannot afford the costs of the produce, those companies will flounder and collapse, being unable to move inventory - at least in a true free market.

I know in all the world, such a thing does not exist, and if the banking or watch making industry were to suffer hardship tomorrow, I imagine the CH government would be there to bail them out. But ideally, if the products are that superior, and more importantly, if the management is smart and effective, such measures should never be needed.

I work for one of the major national banks here in the US, one of the ones with a conservative and prudent management team, a team that avoided all of the risky behavior our bigger competitors dived into over the last decade. As a result, we've grown stronger, and beat out some of those competitors on several measures. While my company was forced to take our bailout from the government (TARP), we were among the first to repay it as well once the government allowed us to do so as the fact is, we didn't need it at all.
This user groans at aedile245 for this post:
  #87  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:00
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Lakewood, CO, USA
Posts: 43
Groaned at 15 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 8 Posts
aedile245 has become a little unpopular
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
...and economies of scale and inefficient/outdated operational methods and lack of structured profit maximization and....
So based on your response, is there not a strong competitive drive in Switzerland? As in, a desire for firms in various industries to compete with one another, become more efficient, and thereby reduce production costs and by extention, costs to the consumer.
  #88  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:02
Caviarchips's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Basel Stadt
Posts: 3,979
Groaned at 99 Times in 77 Posts
Thanked 6,677 Times in 2,388 Posts
Caviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
and by extention, costs to the consumer.
you mean....increase profits. Because, as we already established, costs and prices are not connected
This user would like to thank Caviarchips for this useful post:
  #89  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:04
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,983
Groaned at 69 Times in 52 Posts
Thanked 5,074 Times in 1,802 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
So based on your response, is there not a strong competitive drive in Switzerland? As in, a desire for firms in various industries to compete with one another, become more efficient, and thereby reduce production costs and by extention, costs to the consumer.
there is a farmer down the road from us who can still be found working by hand, day and night (but not on Sunday). maybe you should come over and try to sell him a lawnmower, or God forbid a combine?

The following 3 users would like to thank crazygringo for this useful post:
  #90  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:06
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,220
Groaned at 2,454 Times in 1,776 Posts
Thanked 39,305 Times in 18,526 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
I work for one of the major national banks here in the US
Banks suck big time.

Screw 'em all.

Tom
The following 2 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
This user groans at st2lemans for this post:
  #91  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:09
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Lakewood, CO, USA
Posts: 43
Groaned at 15 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 8 Posts
aedile245 has become a little unpopular
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
there is a farmer down the road from us who can still be found working by hand, day and night (but not on Sunday). maybe you should come over and try to sell him a lawnmower, or God forbid a combine?

Even small producers can compete with one another and become more efficient and reduce their costs. It sounds like, at least from your response, that there is an aversion to modernizing and efficiencies rather than a lack of competitive drive.

If anything, MORE smaller producers should increase that drive as there are more players in the market each pushing one another to out produce (and out profit) the rest.

I'm not suggesting Monsanto come in and buy up all your agricultural land in CH, far from it, I would actually hate that. But there is nothing stopping that farmer growing by hand from modernizing a little to increase efficiency and reduce costs. But ultimately, it's his choice what he wants to do. But if the farmer on the other side of the road chooses to modernize and sell his produce for 75% of the first farmer, well, that's how the market works.
This user groans at aedile245 for this post:
  #92  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:12
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,220
Groaned at 2,454 Times in 1,776 Posts
Thanked 39,305 Times in 18,526 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Migros or Coop knows that consumers will pay CHF10 for Swiss chicken and CHF8 for Brazil chicken
Even less.

Had a Brazil turkey once, tasted like fish (as it had obviously been fed fish meal), never again!

You get what you pay for.

Tom
The following 3 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #93  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:12
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Lakewood, CO, USA
Posts: 43
Groaned at 15 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 8 Posts
aedile245 has become a little unpopular
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Banks suck big time.

Screw 'em all.

Tom
Yeah, they do, I certainly hope you don't use one... Such a "helpful" post. You're one of those punk kids who hates everything in the world beyond your little bubble, aren't you? I've read your other posts on a few of the other threads and I'm guessing that's in fact the case.

You're the kid that hung out in my poli sci classes, argued with everyone, and claimed that everything would be so much better if we just did what Marx said and killed the rich people and gave all their money and land to the poor. That worked out SO well for Zimbabwe...
The following 4 users groan at aedile245 for this post:
  #94  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:13
Caviarchips's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Basel Stadt
Posts: 3,979
Groaned at 99 Times in 77 Posts
Thanked 6,677 Times in 2,388 Posts
Caviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Even small producers can compete with one another and become more efficient and reduce their costs. It sounds like, at least from your response, that there is an aversion to modernizing and efficiencies rather than a lack of competitive drive.

If anything, MORE smaller producers should increase that drive as there are more players in the market each pushing one another to out produce (and out profit) the rest.

I'm not suggesting Monsanto come in and buy up all your agricultural land in CH, far from it, I would actually hate that. But there is nothing stopping that farmer growing by hand from modernizing a little to increase efficiency and reduce costs. But ultimately, it's his choice what he wants to do. But if the farmer on the other side of the road chooses to modernize and sell his produce for 75% of the first farmer, well, that's how the market works.
Just out of interest, are you relatively young?

No slight meant at all, you are very eloquent and clearly intelligent, but you are pretty dogmatic and black & white in your view of the world...
The following 4 users would like to thank Caviarchips for this useful post:
  #95  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:15
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,220
Groaned at 2,454 Times in 1,776 Posts
Thanked 39,305 Times in 18,526 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
You're one of those punk kids who hates everything in the world beyond your little bubble, aren't you?
Umm, I'm probably older than your pimples, let alone your parents!

Tom
The following 5 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #96  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:16
cheesey's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,144
Groaned at 25 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 1,784 Times in 574 Posts
cheesey has a reputation beyond reputecheesey has a reputation beyond reputecheesey has a reputation beyond reputecheesey has a reputation beyond reputecheesey has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

This goes out to the libertarians out there
The following 3 users would like to thank cheesey for this useful post:
  #97  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:20
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Lakewood, CO, USA
Posts: 43
Groaned at 15 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 8 Posts
aedile245 has become a little unpopular
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
you mean....increase profits. Because, as we already established, costs and prices are not connected
Who established that? You can call the sky purple, doesn't make it so.

Assuming there are MANY competitors in a market, a given producer cannot sell an item at an exhorbitant rate for too long without being out competed by another producer undercutting their profit. That's Econ 102.

If I produce widgets for 10 CHF and make a profit of 2 CHF (total cost 12 CHF) and you produce widgets for 8 CHF and make a profit of 4 CHF (total cost 12 CHF), then I either have to find a way to make my widgets as cheap as you or risk going out of business.

If I push hard and now produce widgets for 7 CHF and sell them for 11 CHF, I make 4 CHF profit now, and your consumers will come to me to save 1 CHF (unless they have some brand loyalty to your widgets). Now YOU have to come up with a way to beat me in the market. You already produce widgets for 8 CHF, you can reduce your profit by 1 CHF to meet my price, or even drop to 10 CHF, making 2 CHF profit and still beating my price.

This goes back and forth until we reach a relative equalibrium, one of us goes out of business, or more competitors enter the market. Ideally, more competitors are better than fewer because this sort of pressure keeps costs low and profits reasonable. It also forces producers to increase efficiencies and reduce their production costs to maintain their profits. All of which would, in a market with many competitors, be passed along to the consumer.

Take, for example, an HD TV. At least here in the US, when they first came out, they were several thousand. Now you can get bigger ones than the first generation models for a couple hundred dollars. Are the firms that make those TVs any less profitable despite them selling the same TV for about 1/10th of the first generation price?
This user would like to thank aedile245 for this useful post:
  #98  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:21
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Lakewood, CO, USA
Posts: 43
Groaned at 15 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 8 Posts
aedile245 has become a little unpopular
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
This goes out to the libertarians out there
Libertarian =/= Anarchist
  #99  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:21
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,220
Groaned at 2,454 Times in 1,776 Posts
Thanked 39,305 Times in 18,526 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
You're the kid that hung out in my poli sci classes, argued with everyone, and claimed that everything would be so much better if we just did what Marx said and killed the rich people and gave all their money and land to the poor.
No, I was your teacher who votes for the SVP, you POS foreign scum!

Tom
This user would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #100  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:22
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Lakewood, CO, USA
Posts: 43
Groaned at 15 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 8 Posts
aedile245 has become a little unpopular
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Umm, I'm probably older than your pimples, let alone your parents!

Tom
I'm sure you are older than me, merely based on your behavior on this and other threads. So mature.
This user groans at aedile245 for this post:
Closed Thread




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Would like to move to Australia/New Zealand.... sinab General off-topic 4 24.06.2012 00:15
Will move to zurich in early january and would like to meet people olga_stefan Introductions 11 01.12.2008 10:54
who would like to share the cost to move out from England to Switzerland dlililou Other/general 8 16.09.2008 17:01


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 14:34.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0