Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life  
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:23
Pancakes's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Zurich-ish
Posts: 5,044
Groaned at 286 Times in 204 Posts
Thanked 10,638 Times in 3,993 Posts
Pancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Yeah, they do, I certainly hope you don't use one... Such a "helpful" post. You're one of those punk kids who hates everything in the world beyond your little bubble, aren't you? I've read your other posts on a few of the other threads and I'm guessing that's in fact the case.

You're the kid that hung out in my poli sci classes, argued with everyone, and claimed that everything would be so much better if we just did what Marx said and killed the rich people and gave all their money and land to the poor. That worked out SO well for Zimbabwe...
I don't think Marx ever suggested that we kill rich people.
He did, however, prophesy much of what is currently happening in the U.S.
The following 2 users would like to thank Pancakes for this useful post:
  #102  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:23
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Lakewood, CO, USA
Posts: 43
Groaned at 15 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 8 Posts
aedile245 has become a little unpopular
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
No, I was your teacher who votes for the SVP, you POS foreign scum!

Tom
You're SVP? Yeah right, you support socialism based on the people you favor on this thread. I don't believe for a second you are actually an SVP supporter.

Xenophobic, myopic, immature, anti-capitalist, certainly... But aside from the xenophobia, I fail to see anything you have posted that would align with the SVP.
This user groans at aedile245 for this post:
  #103  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:25
Caviarchips's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Basel Stadt
Posts: 3,979
Groaned at 99 Times in 77 Posts
Thanked 6,677 Times in 2,388 Posts
Caviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Who established that? You can call the sky purple, doesn't make it so.
100% agree with everything you wrote.

Doesn't really address the point I was making though. Do you agree that a producer will set a price dependent upon maximising his profit based upon what a consumer will pay, not based upon what the article cost him or her to manufacture?
  #104  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:25
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Lakewood, CO, USA
Posts: 43
Groaned at 15 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 8 Posts
aedile245 has become a little unpopular
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
I don't think Marx ever suggested that we kill rich people.
He did, however, prophesy much of what is currently happening in the U.S.
You're right, the proletarian revolution merely sought to take the property of the rich and then... Hmm, what after that?

Well, looking at history, every proletarian revolution has resulted in the extermination of vast swaths of the nation's productive class:

France, Russia, Zimbabwe to name a few.
  #105  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:26
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,983
Groaned at 69 Times in 52 Posts
Thanked 5,074 Times in 1,802 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
But if the farmer on the other side of the road chooses to modernize and sell his produce for 75% of the first farmer, well, that's how the market works.
in Switzerland, the farmer on the other side of the road never chooses to "modernize" or "sell his produce for 75% of the first farmer". it's part of what makes the country so confounding, as well as unique and wonderful.

you should leave banking and go into consulting. you have a wonderful mind and disposition for consulting work.
The following 4 users would like to thank crazygringo for this useful post:
  #106  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:27
Pancakes's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Zurich-ish
Posts: 5,044
Groaned at 286 Times in 204 Posts
Thanked 10,638 Times in 3,993 Posts
Pancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
You're SVP? Yeah right, you support socialism based on the people you favor on this thread. I don't believe for a second you are actually an SVP supporter.
insert face palm picture here
The following 2 users would like to thank Pancakes for this useful post:
  #107  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:29
lost_inbroad's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Town or region
Posts: 11,491
Groaned at 655 Times in 417 Posts
Thanked 16,388 Times in 6,379 Posts
lost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
So based on your response, is there not a strong competitive drive in Switzerland? As in, a desire for firms in various industries to compete with one another, become more efficient, and thereby reduce production costs and by extention, costs to the consumer.
Certainly, save a few multinationals, which only strive because of the huge influx of skilled, foreign work forces and the favorable "tax environment" . Large domestic companies still function with very archaic methods and the only thing which keeps them afloat is the lack of competition.
The following 3 users would like to thank lost_inbroad for this useful post:
  #108  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:29
dakman's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NYC (heart is split between Switzerland and the Big Apple)
Posts: 1,872
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 901 Times in 543 Posts
dakman has a reputation beyond reputedakman has a reputation beyond reputedakman has a reputation beyond reputedakman has a reputation beyond reputedakman has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

I was simply saying that the mindset of Swiss citizens is generally that Swiss goods are superior and there is a strong nationalistic desire to buy Swiss goods for the good of the county also. This is especially true with food, and also the belief that shipping foods 100's or 1,000s of miles is bad for the environment and leads to worse food and worse health outcomes. All these things can be debated ad infinitum on a message board and we can decide what is best for a country from an economic standpoint, but in the end the Swiss people decide what they buy and why,whether or not those reasons fits our economic optimal view, which I am sure you can appreciate as a libertarian.
This user would like to thank dakman for this useful post:
  #109  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:31
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Lakewood, CO, USA
Posts: 43
Groaned at 15 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 8 Posts
aedile245 has become a little unpopular
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
100% agree with everything you wrote.

Doesn't really address the point I was making though. Do you agree that a producer will set a price dependent upon maximising his profit based upon what a consumer will pay, not based upon what the article cost him or her to manufacture?
It's both, at least in a more or less free market with many firms competing for consumers. If I want to maximize my profits, I'll sell my widgets at a price the consumers are willing to pay for them, and that is (ideally, but not always) cheaper than my nearest competitors. If I charge more than you, I either have to establish brand loyalty or get the consumers to accept that my widget is better than yours, or else I will lose consumers.

Here in the US I would compare Taco Bell (fast food) to Chipotle (mid-grade food). The latter costs roughly 6x what the former costs, but you get more, better ingredients, and better service/atmosphere. Will the latter go out of business because they charge more than the former? No, they are, essentially, two different products.

So again, it's both aspects. I can sell my widget for the as much as the consumer is willing to pay for it BUT that price will also have to be less than or equal to the price you sell your widget for, unless I find a way to sufficiently differentiate my widget from yours.

In short, a Fossil watch =/= a Rolex. Fossil couldn't sell their watches for the price of a Rolex, and yet both are (relatively) profitable.
  #110  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:31
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,983
Groaned at 69 Times in 52 Posts
Thanked 5,074 Times in 1,802 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
You're right, the proletarian revolution merely sought to take the property of the rich and then... Hmm, what after that?

Well, looking at history, every proletarian revolution has resulted in the extermination of vast swaths of the nation's productive class:

France, Russia, Zimbabwe to name a few.
your understanding of history is poor, there has never been a "proletarian revolution". rather, the "proletarian" is simply used by the disenfranchised wealthy as a tool to swap seats with the enfranchised wealthy. Marx didn't care about the poor any more than Bismarck or the Tsar did, he simply wanted their chairs.
This user would like to thank crazygringo for this useful post:
  #111  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:32
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,224
Groaned at 2,454 Times in 1,776 Posts
Thanked 39,318 Times in 18,534 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
You're SVP? Yeah right
Indeed, generally I vote LEGA, SVP is just the fall-back!

Tom

P.S. Had you bothered to check, you would in fact find this to be the case. Ask Wolli
  #112  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:37
Pancakes's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Zurich-ish
Posts: 5,044
Groaned at 286 Times in 204 Posts
Thanked 10,638 Times in 3,993 Posts
Pancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
You're right, the proletarian revolution merely sought to take the property of the rich and then... Hmm, what after that?

Well, looking at history, every proletarian revolution has resulted in the extermination of vast swaths of the nation's productive class:

France, Russia, Zimbabwe to name a few.
Oh, I don't think Man is capable of carrying out Communism the way that Marx would have intended it to be. It's much better in theory than in practice. I think history has proven that.

But I think you need to consider what "productive" means... especially if it's just working to make the rich minority richer.
The following 2 users would like to thank Pancakes for this useful post:
  #113  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:38
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Lakewood, CO, USA
Posts: 43
Groaned at 15 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 8 Posts
aedile245 has become a little unpopular
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
I was simply saying that the mindset of Swiss citizens is generally that Swiss goods are superior and there is a strong nationalistic desire to buy Swiss goods for the good of the county also. This is especially true with food, and also the belief that shipping foods 100's or 1,000s of miles is bad for the environment and leads to worse food and worse health outcomes. All these things can be debated ad infinitum on a message board and we can decide what is best for a country from an economic standpoint, but in the end the Swiss people decide what they buy and why,whether or not those reasons fits our economic optimal view, which I am sure you can appreciate as a libertarian.
Yes I can, and that makes sense, and I'm fine with that. But in regards to tariffs and subsidies, the Swiss people actually do not have a choice in what they buy or not buy (without overturning applicable legislation) because if it's cheaper to buy beef in Italy, if I were a CH citizen, I wouldn't be able to pay that cheaper cost, I would have to pay the higher artificial cost due to a tariff if I wanted beef from Italy.

Libertarianism would be in line with free trade, allowing Italy to sell it's produce in CH without these artificial economic barriers. Much like how there are little if any political barriers within your party system (as suggested by a previous poster) allowing for a wider and freer exchange of ideas, free trade would allow a wider and freer exchanges of goods, benefiting the consumer, who would still be free to refuse to buy the cheaper foreign goods and support their local producers instead.

If the drive toward nationalism is strong enough that the Swiss would avoid all foreign produce, in time, foreigners would stop sending their produce to CH to be sold. But allowing free trade gives the people of CH the choice between cheaper foreign goods and more expensive local ones.

Certainly if one has the means, they will buy the more expensive produce more often than not. But without a choice, those without the means have only the choice of the more expensive domestic produce.
  #114  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:42
dakman's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NYC (heart is split between Switzerland and the Big Apple)
Posts: 1,872
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 901 Times in 543 Posts
dakman has a reputation beyond reputedakman has a reputation beyond reputedakman has a reputation beyond reputedakman has a reputation beyond reputedakman has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Yes I can, and that makes sense, and I'm fine with that. But in regards to
Certainly if one has the means, they will buy the more expensive produce more often than not. But without a choice, those without the means have only the choice of the more expensive domestic produce.
But if the Swiss as a society have decided to support subsidizing farmers because they want to keep the farms in the hands of small farmers and allow more public useage of the farmers land (e.g., positive externalities from restricting development). Switzlerland is a US economic libertarians nightmare in many ways. democracy and libertarianism do not always go together so well, because there is a belief in societal good rather than pure individualistic driven behavior.
The following 3 users would like to thank dakman for this useful post:
  #115  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:44
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Lakewood, CO, USA
Posts: 43
Groaned at 15 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 8 Posts
aedile245 has become a little unpopular
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Oh, I don't think Man is capable of carrying out Communism the way that Marx would have intended it to be. It's much better in theory than in practice. I think history has proven that.

But I think you need to consider what "productive" means... especially if it's just working to make the rich minority richer.
On the first point 100% agree. Communism or any form of socialism will not work until we find a way to eliminate scarcity. So basically until we invent Star Trek replicators, that sort of economic collectivism will never exist.

That said, when I say productive, I mean productive. That includes both workers working for an employer and entrepreneurs. If someone is producing wealth for themselves or for others, or otherwise adding to the wealth of the nation, they are producers. If they are merely consuming the wealth of the nation and only producing something intangible, they are consumers.

To me, someone who inherits 5 million CHF from a relative isn't the same as someone who builds a company from the ground up and has a net worth of 5 million CHF. Now if that first person invests that money by creating new jobs, new industries, etc, then I would consider them a producer then at that point. Until then, they are also consumers as they produce nothing if they don't put that inherited wealth to some productive use.

I will end this by saying I already know were ideologically opposed. I do not support collectivism in any form whatsoever, and I never will. Likewise, I do not expect you to convert to libertarianism or any form of individualism if that is not what you seek. So I would like to go forward between the two of us in as much a civil way as possible knowing that we likely will not see eye to eye ideologically. Fair?
This user groans at aedile245 for this post:
  #116  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:45
lost_inbroad's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Town or region
Posts: 11,491
Groaned at 655 Times in 417 Posts
Thanked 16,388 Times in 6,379 Posts
lost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
It's both, at least in a more or less free market with many firms competing for consumers. If I want to maximize my profits, I'll sell my widgets at a price the consumers are willing to pay for them, and that is (ideally, but not always) cheaper than my nearest competitors. If I charge more than you, I either have to establish brand loyalty or get the consumers to accept that my widget is better than yours, or else I will lose consumers.

Here in the US I would compare Taco Bell (fast food) to Chipotle (mid-grade food). The latter costs roughly 6x what the former costs, but you get more, better ingredients, and better service/atmosphere. Will the latter go out of business because they charge more than the former? No, they are, essentially, two different products.

So again, it's both aspects. I can sell my widget for the as much as the consumer is willing to pay for it BUT that price will also have to be less than or equal to the price you sell your widget for, unless I find a way to sufficiently differentiate my widget from yours.

In short, a Fossil watch =/= a Rolex. Fossil couldn't sell their watches for the price of a Rolex, and yet both are (relatively) profitable.
Your general idea is correct but you do not quite know how the Swiss market functions. There are fewer choices at stores, restricted opening hours and produce which doesn't last as long because of the futile purchasing quantities, which only drives the prices up and the quality down. Hence you're left with very little opportunity cost and you end up with an almost inelastic demand.
The following 2 users would like to thank lost_inbroad for this useful post:
  #117  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:48
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,224
Groaned at 2,454 Times in 1,776 Posts
Thanked 39,318 Times in 18,534 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Nonsense.

I am as libertarian as it gets, you have no clue.

As is Switzerland.

Tom
  #118  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:50
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Lakewood, CO, USA
Posts: 43
Groaned at 15 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 8 Posts
aedile245 has become a little unpopular
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
But if the Swiss as a society have decided to support subsidizing farmers because they want to keep the farms in the hands of small farmers and allow more public useage of the farmers land (e.g., positive externalities from restricting development). Switzlerland is a US economic libertarians nightmare.
I agree, it would be, but it's offset by that more democratic appeal I am looking for. I mentioned earlier on this thread that I am willing to sacrifice some of my libertarianism in favor of the government being servant to the people.

That means that, as I am often in the political minority no matter where I live on this planet, I will often be forced to support someone else's idea of utopia. I am confident that if such utopianism went too far, the Swiss people would seek to restrain or overturn it through the mechanisms available to them (which we in the US do not have available to us, except in some states such as my own).

While 51% of the people may support utopian plan A this year, in a few years they may decide it was a bad idea and utopian plan A becomes a thing of the past, replaced by utopian plan B.
  #119  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:51
Pancakes's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Zurich-ish
Posts: 5,044
Groaned at 286 Times in 204 Posts
Thanked 10,638 Times in 3,993 Posts
Pancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

No, I think the U.S. is very much in need of socialism -- particularly socialized medicine. (I am also American).

The U.S. has become so overrun with the drive for corporate profit that it seems to have completely disregarded any moral ideologies. The fact is, when the rich get richer, the poor get poorer. That's how income statements work. The less you pay your workers -- and the less benefits you give them -- the more money you make.

Something in that cycle needs to drastically change.

At least the Swiss seem to be enlightened enough to realize that it's not ALL about profit. Trust me, I have my irks about Switzerland. But one thing they do seem to do right is to take care of their own people.... and, for the most part, mind their own business.
The following 4 users would like to thank Pancakes for this useful post:
  #120  
Old 07.09.2012, 00:51
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Lakewood, CO, USA
Posts: 43
Groaned at 15 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 8 Posts
aedile245 has become a little unpopular
Re: Questions from a libertarian that would like to move to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Your general idea is correct but you do not quite know how the Swiss market functions. There are fewer choices at stores, restricted opening hours and produce which doesn't last as long because of the futile purchasing quantities, which only drives the prices up and the quality down. Hence you're left with very little opportunity cost and you end up with an almost inelastic demand.
Gotcha, thanks for clarifying. Another poster mentioned some of that earlier. I am assuming that a majority of the Swiss, then, are fine with higher costs due to these policies?
Closed Thread




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Would like to move to Australia/New Zealand.... sinab General off-topic 4 24.06.2012 00:15
Will move to zurich in early january and would like to meet people olga_stefan Introductions 11 01.12.2008 10:54
who would like to share the cost to move out from England to Switzerland dlililou Other/general 8 16.09.2008 17:01


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:55.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0