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  #21  
Old 23.09.2012, 20:49
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Re: Swiss 'militia' military?

although I am not exactly a libertarian, I thought the following link might be instructive for those who apparently have no clue what the "libertarian" platform provides on the issue of the US military:

http://www.dehnbase.org/lpus/library/platform/mp.html

there are certainly rednecks and gun nuts in the US who think that they envy the Swiss idea of gun ownership, but those rednecks and gun nuts know about as much about the Swiss idea of gun ownership as some folks around here do about the libertarian platform.
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  #22  
Old 23.09.2012, 21:14
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Re: Swiss 'militia' military?

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<snip>

About the only thing in common with American militias is the allowance of mullet hairstyles.


Discuss.
Hairstyles aside, the Swiss army is neither the National Guard nor a militia. It is Switzerland's army. Until not so long ago several other countries operated a similar military model: France, Netherlands, Germany.

This consisted of a core full time army and part time conscripts doing their military service. I think where CH differs from its neighbours is that takes on-going annual service until "retirement" in your 30/40s (?). In Germany, for example, you did your military service and then didn't have to do much again. Even the UK used to have the same system (as Germany) after the war.

There really isn't any comparison with either militias or the National Guard, and as such little to discuss.
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  #23  
Old 23.09.2012, 21:22
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Re: Swiss 'militia' military?

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I think where CH differs from its neighbours is that takes on-going annual service until "retirement" in your 30/40s (?).
All soldiers (except officers and sub-officers) have to serve 260 days in the army.
Usually, that's the recruitment school (21 weeks) and 6 recurring courses (3 weeks each).
If you start the recruitment school with 19, you can be finished when you are 26.
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  #24  
Old 23.09.2012, 21:32
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Re: Swiss 'militia' military?

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Jj muge, the libertarian interpretation of "militia" is basically politically motivated airsofters but with real guns. Militia just means irregular forces although not all militia would identify with the term. For example I've never heard of the British territorial army being called a militia. Militia are normally raised by the government but in the US it has come to mean anti-government private armies yet ironically patriotic.

Apparently if you can cum in under a minute that is strangely relevant in the libertarian take too.
Apparently, if you knew something about Libertarianism in the US (have you even set foot in the US? Did you actually open your eyes while there?), you wouldn't make some of these inaccurate statements. Also, what is your obsession with making crude sexual references towards Americans?
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  #25  
Old 23.09.2012, 21:48
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Re: Swiss 'militia' military?

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although I am not exactly a libertarian, I thought the following link might be instructive for those who apparently have no clue what the "libertarian" platform provides on the issue of the US military:

http://www.dehnbase.org/lpus/library/platform/mp.html

there are certainly rednecks and gun nuts in the US who think that they envy the Swiss idea of gun ownership, but those rednecks and gun nuts know about as much about the Swiss idea of gun ownership as some folks around here do about the libertarian platform.
Most of all, the guns Swiss soldiers have at home are NOT owned but simply on loan

And then let's look at the "Libertarian platform" :



We call on the U.S. government to remove its nuclear weapons from Europe. If European countries want nuclear weapons on their soil, they should take full responsibility for them and pay the cost.

>> Britain and France HAVE nuclear weapons, but overall not too many people in Western Europe want to have nuclear weapons



We call for the withdrawal of all American military personnel stationed abroad, including the countries of NATO Europe, Japan, the Philippines, Central America and South Korea.
>> With the possible exception of South Korea, none of the areas mentioned is really interested in having US soldiers inside these countries. We no longer are in the 1960ies or 70ies. And the USA since the mid-80ies reduced its military presence in Western Europe



There is no current or foreseeable risk of any conventional military attack on the American people, particularly from long distances. We call for the withdrawal of the U.S. from commitments to engage in war on behalf of other governments and for abandonment of doctrines supporting military intervention such as the Monroe Doctrine.

>> This is just applied realism. You already have seen in case of Libya, that it first was France and then Britain who went to support the rebels militarily. The USA, in spite of having "arrived" there late and only making a relatively minor contribution to the general endeavour spoke as if it all had been a US-American thing all along
>> The Monroe-Doctrine in the times of President Monroe was a clearly anti-European doctrine which was mostly directed against Spain and only in the 1960ies worked against the USSR. In practical terms it over two centuries worked to keep up the strategic and economic dominance of the USA over most of Latin America and to hinder whenever possible the European influence in quite many, if discreet ways.
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  #26  
Old 23.09.2012, 23:18
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Re: Swiss 'militia' military?

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Nobody calls the Swiss Army a "militia" as it is a "militia-army". In German keine Miliz, eine Miliz-Armee . There is absolutely nothing irregular in case of the Swiss Army. Militias and all kinds of private armies are strictly prohibited in Switzerland by federal law !
a couple of Swiss friends have described it to me as a militia, including once when one of the other guys around the table was an officer in the Swiss army.

Militia, in a basic dictionary definition, just means non-professional soldiers. Irregular forces means the same. Both terms can be applied to the Swiss model on the one hand, and Shabiha or Basij on the other. Not all irregular forces identify with either term so its usage is a bit contextual, but no doubt the swiss military is often described as a militia, hence this thread.

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As far as I know, in Britain, Royal Army, Royal Navy and Royal Air Force are fully professional. My guess is, since the days of Clement Attlee. Whatever it alreays was a long time tradition back in 1972. .
FYI the British Army (never heard it called "royal army") has the territorial army ("TA") which are the part-timers. This force is called up in war, including recently to serve alongside the pros in Iraq and Afghanistan, and even includes its own special forces. It's been cut heavily and now only has about 35,000 troops.

The RAF has the RAF Reserve, and similar units exist in the Navy and Marines. Plus Merchant marine, MOD Police etc.
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  #27  
Old 23.09.2012, 23:21
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Re: Swiss 'militia' military?

A militia can be raised by the state. The militia acts of 1792 called upon the states of the Union to create militias that in the case of a threat to the United States could be called up by the President. They were, in effect, early reserve units. The same term was used to refer to the Army Reserve in Canada.
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  #28  
Old 23.09.2012, 23:30
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Re: Swiss 'militia' military?

Jobsrobertsharpii, just poking some fun at the militias in the US since they are often very comical and sometimes sinister (let's not get side tracked but JT Ready comes to mind). I think we all realise that pretty much each US "militia" is different from the next, and that there are many flavours of libertarianism in US, many of whom have no interest in these militia and would argue their legitimacy. The thread does have a serious angle though as Switzerland is often cited on Libertarian-leaning forums and the swiss militia system raised.
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  #29  
Old 23.09.2012, 23:38
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Re: Swiss 'militia' military?

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a couple of Swiss friends have described it to me as a militia, including once when one of the other guys around the table was an officer in the Swiss army.

Militia, in a basic dictionary definition, just means non-professional soldiers. Irregular forces means the same. Both terms can be applied to the Swiss model on the one hand, and Shabiha or Basij on the other. Not all irregular forces identify with either term so its usage is a bit contextual, but no doubt the swiss military is often described as a militia, hence this thread.
How can the constitutional armed forces of a country be irregular? By your definition both world wars would have been mainly fought by irregular forces.
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  #30  
Old 23.09.2012, 23:45
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Re: Swiss 'militia' military?

Yes in a sense although reference to irregular forces wasn't meant to complicate things. Plenty of irregular troops in world wars regardless of definitions, but pretty sure irregular just means not regular. By some definitions the "regular army" includes reservists, but depends who you ask it seems but not where I come from or US.

Certainly in UK it has been said that "the professional army starts the war, the TA finishes it", in reference to the fact that the British regular army isn't big enough to fight a proper war - wasn't in 1914, wasn't in 1939.
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  #31  
Old 23.09.2012, 23:48
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Re: Swiss 'militia' military?

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a couple of Swiss friends have described it to me as a militia, including once when one of the other guys around the table was an officer in the Swiss army.

Militia, in a basic dictionary definition, just means non-professional soldiers. Irregular forces means the same. Both terms can be applied to the Swiss model on the one hand, and Shabiha or Basij on the other. Not all irregular forces identify with either term so its usage is a bit contextual, but no doubt the swiss military is often described as a militia, hence this thread.

FYI the British Army (never heard it called "royal army") has the territorial army ("TA") which are the part-timers. This force is called up in war, including recently to serve alongside the pros in Iraq and Afghanistan, and even includes its own special forces. It's been cut heavily and now only has about 35,000 troops.

The RAF has the RAF Reserve, and similar units exist in the Navy and Marines. Plus Merchant marine, MOD Police etc.
A) the term Miliz-Armee is official. That officer possibly was too drunk to realize the important detail
B) I often heard the term Royal Army from the BBC in the 1970ies, but yes it is named British Army, in contrast to the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force
C) the "Territorial Army" then is the reservists, which in this case means former members of the force who can be mobilized in an emergency situation ?

But again, the term "militia" for the Swiss Army (which includes the airforce) is wrong. HOWEVER, what is defended is the "militia system of the army" . The REAL problem however rather is that the system is outdated. This is why most West-European countries in recent years have changed to professional armies
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  #32  
Old 23.09.2012, 23:54
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Re: Swiss 'militia' military?

Wollishofener, the TA includes former regular soldiers but they don't have to be. Not sure of the stats but would guess over half are not former regular army although this may change due to defense cuts. The TA doesn't pay enough for anyone to do it for the money, although it has cheap bars. Former soldiers could be called up in time of war, I think without a "draft" through parliament, regardless of whether they join the TA. The TA is loosely the equivalent of the National Guard.
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  #33  
Old 24.09.2012, 00:01
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Re: Swiss 'militia' military?

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Yes in a sense although reference to irregular forces wasn't meant to complicate things. Plenty of irregular troops in world wars regardless of definitions, but pretty sure irregular just means not regular. By some definitions the "regular army" includes reservists, but depends who you ask it seems but not where I come from or US.

Certainly in UK it has been said that "the professional army starts the war, the TA finishes it", in reference to the fact that the British regular army isn't big enough to fight a proper war - wasn't in 1914, wasn't in 1939.
The Swiss Army always was a REGULAR ARMY since 1948. Up to 1947, each Canton had its separate armed forces. General Henri Dufour then merged the pro-union armies into one, and after gaining victory over the secessionists (Sonderbund) integrated the previous separatist forces. The army was gradually reduced and when General Herzog had to mobilize troops in 1870, there were only few trained soldiers around. To impress the army of French General Bourbaki, General Herzog let his troops parade right in sight of the French in ever changing uniforms and with different flags etc, giving the impression of a large army. The Bourbaki chaps were duly impressed and surrendered to General Herzog. But only Berlin Military Academy educated General Ulrich Wille (in Zürich, the Ulrich Wille Strasse at a certain point become the General Guisan Quai) reformed the Swiss Army into a real military force along the lines of the Prussian/ Imperial German Army. He in 1914 to 18 introduced the system with the RS/WKs/EKs in order to keep all men up to 50 years of age permanently "under weapons" . This over the years has now been brought down to 40 years. When Henri Guisan got elected as C.I.C. (4 star general) by the united congress of both houses of parliament in 1939 he could rely on a decent organisation immediately.
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  #34  
Old 24.09.2012, 11:20
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Re: Swiss 'militia' military?

Wolli, you are an old chap just like me. We are allowed to get the decades a bit wrong once in a while, but we still should keep the centuries where they belong. General Guillaume-Henri Dufour lived 1787 - 1875, and the conversion of the cantonal armed forces into the Federal Army took place in 1848, not 1948, based on the new Federal Constitution of the same year.

I know you know that, most likely even much better than me, because you are a pretty erudite guy in historical matters. Of course that was a simple typo. I just want to avoid confusion among those EFers who don't know those details.
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