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Old 08.10.2012, 20:55
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Re: Advice needed - Is it possible to re-train a 22yr old male person?

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Is it possible to re-train a 22yr old male person
Not a chance.

Only from personal experience.

You might dig a big well.

Or live with it.
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  #42  
Old 08.10.2012, 21:01
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Re: Advice needed - Is it possible to re-train a 22yr old male person?

Yes, provided you are a Domme and he is a sub!

Tom
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  #43  
Old 08.10.2012, 21:15
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Maybe make his father clean the mess his son is leaving. Maybe make them work together, literally - spend time togeter on hobbies, and on household work. Let them (re)build the relationship. Get them to communicate.
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  #44  
Old 08.10.2012, 21:22
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Re: Advice needed - Is it possible to re-train a 22yr old male person?

Most people will change if it benefits themself. Hoping for him to change his lifestyle for your benefit is a far longer shot. Altruism is nice but you can't rely on it.

Most teenagers stop being dirty, wild-spending and anti-social when they realise that being cleaner, solvent and cooperative gets them what they want - be that getting laid or getting the job they want.

If you can make it in his own interests to do what you want, then you're 90% of the way there.
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Old 08.10.2012, 21:26
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Re: Advice needed - Is it possible to re-train a 22yr old male person?

I would chime in on all the other advice... You need a clear understanding between your husband and yourself about what is expected.

Between you and your husband, you should be able to to clearly set out the rules and consequences. You may (with your husband) choose consequences that you are willing to go through with. Then you may (with your husband) to decide how to present this list of expectations and solutions - preferably father/son or father/stepmother/son in a formal meeting.

The ultimate threat is to throw him out. You have to be prepared to do that. 'Rescuing' him may be very tempting...

The drugs thing is a separate angle, and it's obvious from your post that your husband does not have a 'zero tolerance' attitude. I'm not a believer that 'tolerance' with drugs works, but it sounds like your husband wants to tolerate the drugs (telling him to keep it out of the house) - do you have smoking in the house generally ? Have you told him it's OK for him to smoke in his room ?

Personally, I find it hard to keep piles of clean washing under control, so I'd recommend for that issue that you do move his clean stuff (assuming he's doing the washing part), throw it in a basket and either make a space for it in the laundry room, or return it to his room - I don't have a problem with doing this for my kids / guests although I do go nuts at my just-turned 13 year old if she doesn't put her clean washing away ASAP and give me the basket back - but she's still 'in training'! - our method is that dirty clothes are kept in bedrooms (preferably in a hamper) until washing time, then put straight in the washing machine, transferred to the dryer by whoever notices it needs to be done, and preferably folded hot straight into the basket or onto the sofa. If I had a laundry room, I'd put in a big bench top so the folding can happen right there, and then a basket for each family member...but we have a dryer in our apartment, so it's right there to remind us!

As for general slobbiness, not cleaning the bathroom etc. It's his space, his room, and it has no consequence. You could offer to 'teach' him how to do it, or suggest he pays someone to do it, but otherwise I think he should be left to live in his pigsty.

As for moths/cockroaches whatever, that's his problem until it spreads to the rest of the household. I'm not sure I could ask a 22 year old to not eat in his bedroom, and as for using furniture etc as an ashtray, that's gross but probably harmless - I'd be more concerned about the damage he's doing to his body by smoking in the first place, but it's an addiction that he will have to deal with himself.

I would definitely require that he has the money transferred for the board plus bond each month automatically from his salary. No negotiation, no room for late payment. He has to learn to pay his bills first, and a roof over his head must be the #1 priority.

My other advice is that there should be a 'bank book'. I'm completely financially independent and have a family, have been living out of home and paying my own bills for 15 years, and my father still keeps a 'financial account' for me. He makes it clear what is a 'gift' and what is a 'loan' and at the moment he wants to save up some money which will be a 'gift' towards a holiday were planning with our kids back to Australia next year. He makes 'deposits' to his saving account on our behalf, instead of birthday presents, and he sends me a little 'notice' that he's made a 'deposit' to our 'Grandpa savings fund'... and he even sends me a little spreadsheet (like one of those 'money thermometers) - where we can see how our 'savings' are adding up. It may sound 'childish' but I can tell you it makes the situation very clear... my MIL does the same, grandmother the same. All of them have given us plenty of money that were 'gifts' over the years, but it's very clear when we have 'borrowed' money, and we know what we owe, and we are working to pay it back.

It's actually quite liberating. We don't feel 'indebted' for a free gift, and we feel responsible and able to be 'financially independent'... we clearly know what is expected. Oh, and it's also nice to know my siblings are also accountable... I have one brother who has a tendency to sponge off others, and it's nice to know that he is also held accountable... and it limits the sibling rivalry...

Debt and feeling constantly indebted is a horrid feeling. I definitely suffer from depression and the tendency to have a 'down' view of the future. Reassurance and belief in the person, a realistic awareness of what is possible (is he completely out of depth with his debts ? Has he seen a debt counsellor ?).... can be extremely reassuring.

I think financial education is very important for young adults, and can be very hard to get. These days, it's so easy to get into debt through credit cards, mobile phones, internet gambling...and I hope he's not in debt to a drug dealer ).... even with a really good full-time job, he could easily be out of his depth and possibly need to go bankrupt...
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  #46  
Old 08.10.2012, 21:53
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Re: Advice needed - Is it possible to re-train a 22yr old male person?

Tip off the cops about the drugs. Visiting hours are ...
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  #47  
Old 08.10.2012, 22:02
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Re: Advice needed - Is it possible to re-train a 22yr old male person?

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This kid's behaviour sounds a lot like depression.

Can't manage debt, can't manage his mess, can't manage his life.

I doubt throwing him out is the solution.
One word: drugs.

It reminds my brother some few years ago. He spent years in this kind of state under drugs influence. Was he depressed? Yes but because of the drugs and the troubles that brang with it.
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  #48  
Old 08.10.2012, 23:18
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Re: Advice needed - Is it possible to re-train a 22yr old male person?

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One word: drugs.

It reminds my brother some few years ago. He spent years in this kind of state under drugs influence. Was he depressed? Yes but because of the drugs and the troubles that brang with it.
That's anecdotal evidence. The drugs could be the cause, but also a result of depression. Or even a way of self-medication. I recommend a professional.
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  #49  
Old 08.10.2012, 23:20
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Re: Advice needed - Is it possible to re-train a 22yr old male person?

...or it coule be the other way round: he uses the drugs to self-medicate.

difficult situation and i think good advice has been given. talk to your husband and try to make sure that you are together on this and not to let it come between you- as this won't help anyone.

good luck
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  #50  
Old 08.10.2012, 23:31
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Re: Advice needed - Is it possible to re-train a 22yr old male person?

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That's anecdotal evidence. The drugs could be the cause, but also a result of depression. Or even a way of self-medication.
Drugs can be a cause, an effect, or totally unrelated.

Tom
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  #51  
Old 09.10.2012, 09:07
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Re: Advice needed - Is it possible to re-train a 22yr old male person?

Well that was/is pretty amazing reading! Thanks for all your wise words! Each and every one of you have offered me good advice

Because yesterday was a traumatic day of intense house-cleaning to uncover the insect invasion - vacuuming/washing cupboards and clothes, and all the wild thoughts going thru my head about what to DO with this young man who seems to have brought all this mess into house - inbetween reading your various advice - I finally sat down and wrote out a list of "What is allowed" and "What is not allowed" (feeling confident about this, as your varied comments re-inforced my feelings).

In the evening his Dad and I had a good talk about his son`s problems, and looking at my list he agreed wholeheartedly with everything. Re-wrote it all out in "proper" German, adding a postscript that should he not abide by these rules, he will receive ONE warning (in a month) and if a 2nd has to be issued, he will have 2 months to find another place to live, as it is intolerable to live together with him.

We waited and waited for son to return from work .... (gosh has my mental telephathy gotten so strong?!) ...... In the end his Dad pinned the list on his bedroom door.

1. Bedroom will be vacuumed and floor washed 1x a week.
2. Shower will be cleaned 1x a week.
3. Laundry will be in basket, not on floor.
4. Washed laundry will be removed immediately from washroom.
5. Washbasin in bathroom will be cleaned and left in condition it was found.
6. *NO more smoking allowed in bedroom!
7. The money he pays is NOT "rent" - it covers water/electricity/heating/basic foodstuff/washing powders/soaps/toiletpaper/toothpaste.
8. Studying will be in his bedroom - organise it! (it is large enough)
9. Cleanliness inspection will be carried out weekly - until no longer neccessary. Thereafter once a month.

*(Due to having to wash/re-paint to rid house of stink caused by smoke and other smells emanating from his bedroom) + (because his bedroom is not "in" house,has cross ventilation windows, door entrance only into front hallway, we`d tolerated his smoking there, but because of his life-style it is no longer tolerable) + (there`s an enclosed winter-garden provided for smokers)


Son arrived home later, there was a thunderous silence in house - then, on my way upstairs, I heard the vacuum cleaner in his bedroom! (Ja, that did slightly soften my heart)

Whew!

Now ...... I guess it`s a matter of monitoring and not letting go.

And here was me thinking life was under control and I can finally relax?
..... and have time to spend my kids inheritance..... .......hahaaa ... Life! Can be SO funny peculiar, huh?

.................................................
A gracious thank you to the community who posted on this thread. You all helped me enormously!
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  #52  
Old 09.10.2012, 10:14
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Re: Advice needed - Is it possible to re-train a 22yr old male person?

Good news and let's hope the strong message has at last gotten through to him. It only goes to show he was taking the p***, knowing he could do as he liked without consequences. Now he knows different. Stick by the rules you have set down and hopefully he'll get himself back on track with his life and job and will actually want to find his own place soon. Sometimes tough love is the only way that works.
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  #53  
Old 09.10.2012, 13:25
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Re: Advice needed - Is it possible to re-train a 22yr old male person?

Yeap good news! Now lets hope that when he stops following the rules (and he will at some point), you guys stick to the rules

Good luck and let us know how it goes!
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  #54  
Old 09.10.2012, 13:48
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Re: Advice needed - Is it possible to re-train a 22yr old male person?

Honestly, i didnt expect such a good reaction . . . Congrats and well done!

At 22 i was living in a diferent country, had a mortgage and job etc. . There is no excuse for that carry on i think.

My dad used play a great "trick" with me. If i hadnt things picked up off the floor he would bin them. Usually he would use a clean bag so i could pick my clothes out again but i REALLY learned my lesson when he used the kitchen bin, put my clothes in, dog food, leftoverrs, ground coffee etc.

Dad: 1 Me: 0
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Old 09.10.2012, 15:13
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Re: Advice needed - Is it possible to re-train a 22yr old male person?

Smoky,

it is certainly good news that he has vacuumed; but as far as I can tell he is probably just taking you all for a ride (because, like every 22yrs old, he thinks that he is smarter than anyone else).

I feel really sorry for the kid. This tender age is certainly one of the most difficult in man's life; and it does not help if he is feeling rejected. And "setting up the rules" and "my house, my rules" behaviour must be putting him under tremendous feeling that you and his father are not understanding him at all.

I strongly feel that he feels excluded from the house, and you are probably an obstacle between him and his father (to whom he is not having a good communication, which is not unusual at that age btw, and has likely nothing to do with you).

In my opinion, he is a tender soul that needs hugging. Which he will have to pretend to reject at first. But offer him understanding, and please don't pin rules on his door, it feels like a rejection.

Rules are good, btw. But it is also important that you all work on communication. Doing things together. Even if it only preparing meal / barbique. Or fixing old car. Young boys need that.
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Old 09.10.2012, 15:19
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Re: Advice needed - Is it possible to re-train a 22yr old male person?

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Smoky,

it is certainly good news that he has vacuumed; but as far as I can tell he is probably just taking you all for a ride (because, like every 22yrs old, he thinks that he is smarter than anyone else).

I feel really sorry for the kid. This tender age is certainly one of the most difficult in man's life; and it does not help if he is feeling rejected. And "setting up the rules" and "my house, my rules" behaviour must be putting him under tremendous feeling that you and his father are not understanding him at all.

I strongly feel that he feels excluded from the house, and you are probably an obstacle between him and his father (to whom he is not having a good communication, which is not unusual at that age btw, and has likely nothing to do with you).

In my opinion, he is a tender soul that needs hugging. Which he will have to pretend to reject at first. But offer him understanding, and please don't pin rules on his door, it feels like a rejection.

Rules are good, btw. But it is also important that you all work on communication. Doing things together. Even if it only preparing meal / barbique. Or fixing old car. Young boys need that.
Absolutely agree. The rules pinned on the door was a good start. but don't think you can go all the way by acting like a tin-pot dictator. Make sure you show lots of love and hugs and don't criticise everything he does, and also get his dad to do the same. And remember that you're a newcomer in his life so let him have those moments with his dad and don't interfere with those. Otherwise he'll get the impression that you're just a control freak trying to have everything your way.
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  #57  
Old 10.10.2012, 13:09
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Re: Advice needed - Is it possible to re-train a 22yr old male person?

Really? Hes 22 not 15.

What i mean is, i dont think its fair to tip toe incase he feels rejected. She should be able to relax in her home with out the infestation of insects.

Im sure he can feel supported and loved while keeping his mess to a minimum.

Personally i would have thought at age 22 there would be no need to hang such rules on the door because he would already know them!

Meeyat, i do see where you are coming from an di find myself agreeing with what you are saying.... i grew up (like most ) with "tough love" and i find that hard ot let go of!
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Old 10.10.2012, 13:36
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Re: Advice needed - Is it possible to re-train a 22yr old male person?

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Really? Hes 22 not 15.

What i mean is, i dont think its fair to tip toe incase he feels rejected. She should be able to relax in her home with out the infestation of insects.

Im sure he can feel supported and loved while keeping his mess to a minimum.

Personally i would have thought at age 22 there would be no need to hang such rules on the door because he would already know them!

Meeyat, i do see where you are coming from an di find myself agreeing with what you are saying.... i grew up (like most ) with "tough love" and i find that hard ot let go of!
Some kids mature faster than others. So you can't always say "at this age you should ...". The whole rebellion side to it make it sound to me as if this boy is still trying to come to grips with himself and his hormones, and the drugs side makes it sound as if he hasn't been especially succesful at doing that. Add to that that (I guess) his parents have split up and all the trauma that comes with such a split (especially if it wasn't handled delicately) then there is a lot of cause for instability and generally having trouble being oneself. This doesn't excuse excesses though. So the response has to be a delicate balance between clear no-nonsense rules and limits / punishments and a softer touch to rebuild confidence.
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Old 10.10.2012, 13:49
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Re: Advice needed - Is it possible to re-train a 22yr old male person?

This guy sounds like my brother when he was the same age.

We were brought up with rules and consequences even with being swiss.
But then our parents got divorced and my brother took it very badly.
He started borrowing money, taking drugs, wrecking bikes of other people and couldn't rent an own apartment because he was in too much dept. So my father stepped in, payed his dept and rented an apartment in his name for my brother. That went badly wrong, he refused paying anything, even the rent and my father was left with a biiiiig pile of bills where on some of them his name was on.
Over all of that they "broke up", refused to talk to each other for ten years.

In that time my brother hit rock bottom and there was nobody to pick him up and lend him a hand.
Today he sais he needed that. He needed to find him self and figure out what the hell he wanted from life. Of course that only worked because he is a very strong person by nature. Now he owns a very successful business, has no depts, has a wonderful partner and since two years my dad and him are on speaking terms again.

The whole thing was really hard on the whole family, especially because my brother and father had such a good relationship before the divorce of our parents.
But now our family grew together again, even my parents get on better!

What I want to say with this whole story is, if he doesn't let you and your partner help him, you NEED to let go.
Just because he was vacuuming once, doesn't yet mean it's over...

Good luck!
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Old 10.10.2012, 14:08
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Re: Advice needed - Is it possible to re-train a 22yr old male person?

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Honestly, i didnt expect such a good reaction . . . Congrats and well done!

At 22 i was living in a diferent country, had a mortgage and job etc. . There is no excuse for that carry on i think.

My dad used play a great "trick" with me. If i hadnt things picked up off the floor he would bin them. Usually he would use a clean bag so i could pick my clothes out again but i REALLY learned my lesson when he used the kitchen bin, put my clothes in, dog food, leftoverrs, ground coffee etc.

Dad: 1 Me: 0
I ended up doing that type of thing with my grandkids here in CH . Clothes and bags strewn all over the entrance hall got put in the barn, shoes left on steps were thrown out into the garden - actually their parents started that and it became the norm, until they learned it was easier to put things in their right places!
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