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  #61  
Old 09.10.2012, 15:51
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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Standard German was derived from High German and is hence frequently called Hochdeutsch.
That's not correct. There are two definitions of "Hoch" that have nothing to do with each other.

- a linguistic one, where high German are all dialects spoken in Southern Germany, Austria and Switzerland. In that sense IS Swiss German a form of High German. Linguists are weird people, so most don't really care what they define.

- a historical one: "Hochsprache" is the abstracted standardized form that is not spoken anywhere and never has been. It is actually a mix of low and high German. Mr. Duden was the guy who defined it and he took the Saxon - which is a high German dialect - Grammar (because a Saxon called Luther translated the bible quite successfully, so people were used to reading in his grammar.) and defined a lot of the spelling by low German ways common around Hannover.
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  #62  
Old 09.10.2012, 15:59
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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In addition i think neighbour rivalries are pretty normal
dutch-german
swiss-german
poland-german
british-ireland
australia-new zealand
india-pakistan
u.s.-canada
italy-spain etc...
I think at the end of the day it boils down to this.

I wonder what percentage of those Swiss who get really acid about the Germans actually drive a German car and have a German kitchen?
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  #63  
Old 09.10.2012, 16:06
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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Swiss Germans dont really have a problem with the French i think
imo its the Britains, Americans and Australians mostly
Australians dont hate the French. Most Australians have never met a French person. We may stereotype them (like a lot of people do about a lot of other people) but not hate (generalization I know).

We don`t hate Kiwis either, can't speak for them not hating us though.
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  #64  
Old 09.10.2012, 16:21
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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Why is it that you take obection to Italy and Spain being neighbours, but don't object to the same thing being said of New Zealand and Australia. Maybe you are the one needing a map?
Indeed, one can travel from one to the other without passing through, or even over, any other country!

Tom
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  #65  
Old 09.10.2012, 16:26
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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Swiss Germans dont really have a problem with the French i think
imo its the Britains, Americans and Australians mostly
Well the little island I come from has (in the past) had many issues with them. I mean one of the wars we had was called the "hundred years war"*. When I was growing up, I think the only country/culture we really had an issue with was the yanks. But that was because they were the most powerful nation in the world and were doing naughty things to the language we gave the world. As for other nations - well I got the impression there was no real problem as we knew we were obviously superior to everyone else (two world wars, a former empire, and press and broadcasting often reminding us of this). Thank God we were in the European Community trying to supervise things and keeping an eye on the French and Germans (the other nations were less of a worry, especially if they agreed with us). JBZ has also nicely summarized how the Germans were seen. And just have a look at the red top newspapers the next time we're up against Germany in a big sporting fixture

Back to this thread. I'm sure I had something to say before I typed the text above. Anyway it's hard not to notice the anti-German bias here. It's not everywhere, but it's certainly noticeable and unpleasant.

p.s.
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I spent many happy years in France, and was proud to call myself a Parisian (even though, yes I know about "Parigot, tete de veau" etc; luckily never had issues (AFAIK) due to plates starting with '75').
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  #66  
Old 09.10.2012, 16:38
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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That's not correct. There are two definitions of "Hoch" that have nothing to do with each other.

- a linguistic one, where high German are all dialects spoken in Southern Germany, Austria and Switzerland. In that sense IS Swiss German a form of High German. Linguists are weird people, so most don't really care what they define.
...
Why? They have some point there (vowel shift and all that stuff, and Swiss German - in the contrary to popular belief - is very close to standard German, anyway far closer than Dutch, Danish, English, Friesisch or Lower German).


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...
- which is a high German dialect - Grammar (because a Saxon called Luther translated the bible quite successfully, so people were used to reading in his grammar.) and defined a lot of the spelling by low German ways common around Hannover.
Yeah but wait. Besides that Kanzleisächsisch has little to do with nowadays Hochsächsisch from actual Saxony,

I doubt that the attributive "high" refers to social class and prestige, but rather to a historical period or, again, a geographic area.

AfaIk regarding Hanover it was the other way round: Hanover adapted to Kanzlei- and Hochdeutsch, not Kanzlei towards Hanover.
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  #67  
Old 09.10.2012, 16:43
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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Question? Have you ever actually been to Germany, or do you just watch TV? ...
...
Both. As you could deduct from my poor syntax and strange diction, I am a native German.

And, btw. as I know my Pappenheimer I do not like certain ways Germans behave. Not at all. And I do understand a good load of the Swiss' criticism towards German immigrants very well, more than I would like to.



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...A friend of mine complains she can't make friends in her village because she's the only one who speaks Hochdeutsch there.
...
Of course she complains, she's a German.

Cheers.
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  #68  
Old 09.10.2012, 17:11
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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I wonder what percentage of those Swiss who get really acid about the Germans actually drive a German car and have a German kitchen?
say what you want about the Swiss, they never let personal bias get in the way of a business transaction.

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  #69  
Old 09.10.2012, 17:15
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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I lived and worked in germany for 12 years, I like both the country and the people. I was never given any hassle or insults. Yet here I have been insulted, mobbed at work, and generally told to go away.

I have 5 German friends here, and I do feel sorry for them. They are well behaved, cultured and interesting, but are not welcome. I have met several Swiss people whom speak ill of the German race. They have introduced the subject, it might have been about eating, or driving or something and then they say "But the Germans here are always.. blah blah blah" which is usually different with my experiences.

I really think Swiss citizens have a big inferiority complex. It is a small nation and so they are not big at anything except looking after black money. Sure there are big things here, but when you check out world figures, they are not usually the top. I cannot see any other reason for this hostile anti German attitude, other than there has been heavy immigration from Germany over the past 10 years, the immigrants being well qualified and with good experience. This has probably been upsetting as somebody who is passed over for promotion by a foreign immigrant is not going to like the new boss at all.

.
Ok, now you are biting your tongue. Switzerland was voted, this year, as the Nr 1 competitive country in the world! They pay the highest salaries in the world, and are favored for their democracy. When something has the label "Made in Switzerland" it is respected and esteemed. Did you know that a Swiss university is in the Top 20 universities in the world as well? It's like you are living in another country. Do you actually know anything about Switzerland. By the way Switzerland and Germany get along just fine. Switzerland is Germany's biggest trading partner in Europe.
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  #70  
Old 09.10.2012, 17:24
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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Well the little island I come from has (in the past) had many issues with them. I mean one of the wars we had was called the "hundred years war"*. When I was growing up, I think the only country/culture we really had an issue with was the yanks. But that was because they were the most powerful nation in the world and were doing naughty things to the language we gave the world. As for other nations - well I got the impression there was no real problem as we knew we were obviously superior to everyone else (two world wars, a former empire, and press and broadcasting often reminding us of this). Thank God we were in the European Community trying to supervise things and keeping an eye on the French and Germans
For much of history our kings were French and during that time we were mostly at war with France. Then we decided to get German kings and sure enough we had two wars with Germany. I've left out the bit about the Scottish kings we had. A bit further back we had Danish kings and we had some trouble with the Vikings if I remember correctly. I wonder if there's a pattern here?
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  #71  
Old 09.10.2012, 18:23
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Re: Rise is Anti German culture

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Not difficult to find and relatively well known. It is named after a well known German footballer and it's located in a side street off Langstrasse. You may well have been there.
There is no bar called "Loddar" in that area!

And here a song that was entered for the prequalification of the European Song Contes with the Title "Di Tütsche sind blöd" (the Germans are stupid):
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  #72  
Old 09.10.2012, 18:39
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

the bar is called kaiser franz. it seems to me its german run as he has loads of german beer brands, eg kölsch, augustiner, etc.
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  #73  
Old 09.10.2012, 18:45
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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When i moved here I met lots of Germans, I have had one German flat mate and have another. He has a circle of German friends who come round, and of course at work there are many Germans. Once I asked my previous and current flat mate how they are educated about the wars? What are they brought up believing and what are they told? I was very surprised, but perhaps not in hindsight, to hear they did not like to talk about it. Very similar reactions across the board since raising this question. Embarrassment, apologetic, detached, outraged.
argh, dont mention the war!!
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  #74  
Old 09.10.2012, 19:02
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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the bar is called kaiser franz. it seems to me its german run as he has loads of german beer brands, eg kölsch, augustiner, etc.
No he's Swiss/Italian.

Besides the German ones, he also has loads of UK beers (St Austell, Marston's Pedigree, Old Peculier etc) as well as Belgian ones (probably the only place in Zürich that has Duvel on tap), and even quite a few regional US beers (Yuengling, Lone Star, Mississipi Mud). If you care for variety in beer, there's really no other place that can rival his. I think he has something like 40 to 50 beers avilable and is continuously varying them.
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  #75  
Old 09.10.2012, 19:08
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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Switzerland is Germany's biggest trading partner in Europe.
Where on earth did you read that?! Germany is Switzerlands biggest export market, which is quite logical as Germany is the biggest market in Europe. But vice versa does it look pretty differently: Obviously are countries like France way more important for the German economy than Switzerland. Even Poland buys more German goods than Switzerland...

Source: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...IjIXtItmfoWjXQ
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  #76  
Old 09.10.2012, 19:09
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

Who among you have been living in Zürich for over 20 years? I remember the early 90ies and aggressive antipathy wasn't that seldom. But I didn't live in ZH at that time, just a regular visitor.
Was it really more gentle 20 years ago for Germans in ZH? I'm not sure.
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  #77  
Old 09.10.2012, 19:17
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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Who among you have been living in Zürich for over 20 years? I remember the early 90ies and aggressive antipathy wasn't that seldom. But I didn't live in ZH at that time, just a regular visitor.
Was it really more gentle 20 years ago for Germans in ZH? I'm not sure.
I think you're right. People who think things used to be better are living in some sort of distorted nostalgia field.

Back then the older generation was still alive who would brag about how the Swiss army scared the cr*p out of Hitler and explain that that was why he never invaded. I heard that story from many people back then but haven't heard it for a long time now.
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  #78  
Old 09.10.2012, 19:25
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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Australians dont hate the French. Most Australians have never met a French person. We may stereotype them (like a lot of people do about a lot of other people) but not hate (generalization I know).

We don`t hate Kiwis either, can't speak for them not hating us though.
Atleast the Australians i know who visited France didnt like the French they thought they are rude, arrogant etc..

In addition the nuclear tests in french polynesia didnt help the relations
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  #79  
Old 09.10.2012, 19:44
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ok, thx for the light shed! when i was there only hes waitre was around. i was just guessing. yeah, the place is nice. loads of choice, nice reduce to the max interieur and footy on telly. perfect!
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  #80  
Old 09.10.2012, 19:57
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Re: Rise is Anti German culture

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germans are much more likely to make friends with other German speakers, like Austrians, Dutch, Scandinavians and the like.
WUT???

German speakers =/= Germanic speakers...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages

Germans are likely to make friends with...(drum roll)...other Germans...
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