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  #81  
Old 09.10.2012, 20:01
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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In addition i think neighbour rivalries are pretty normal
dutch-german
swiss-german
poland-german
british-ireland
australia-new zealand
india-pakistan
u.s.-canada
italy-spain etc...
You do realise that Italy and Spain are not neighbours, don't you. There's the little matter of France in between
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  #82  
Old 09.10.2012, 20:04
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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You do realise that Italy and Spain are not neighbours, don't you. There's the little matter of France in between
No, only in some places. Mostly, they are neighbors.

Tom
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  #83  
Old 09.10.2012, 20:22
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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No, only in some places. Mostly, they are neighbors.

Tom
Sorry Tom, but what do you mean?

As far as I know, they don't share a border...
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  #84  
Old 09.10.2012, 21:00
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

They share a sea.
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  #85  
Old 09.10.2012, 21:07
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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They share a sea.
Indeed.

As do Ireland/UK, UK/France, UK/NL, etc.

Tom
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Old 09.10.2012, 21:08
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

How can anyone not like the Germans?

They gave us Kraftwerk.



Of course, this isn't the German version of the song, but I always thought the Swiss should steal this song and use it as their national anthem.
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  #87  
Old 09.10.2012, 21:27
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Where on earth did you read that?! Germany is Switzerlands biggest export market, which is quite logical as Germany is the biggest market in Europe. But vice versa does it look pretty differently: Obviously are countries like France way more important for the German economy than Switzerland. Even Poland buys more German goods than Switzerland...

Source: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...IjIXtItmfoWjXQ
Read this...
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  #88  
Old 09.10.2012, 22:24
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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They share a sea.

Ah, ok, good point there
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  #89  
Old 09.10.2012, 22:43
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Re: Rise is Anti German culture

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Same with motorcycle meetings, though I have noticed that the Voralbergers are more likely to hang out with Swiss rather than Germans.

Tom
The Vorarlbergers are "Swiss in disguise"
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Old 09.10.2012, 22:48
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Re: Rise is Anti German culture

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The Vorarlbergers are "Swiss in disguise"
Yes, I've known this for 25 years!

Tom
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  #91  
Old 09.10.2012, 22:52
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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How can anyone not like the Germans?

They gave us Kraftwerk.
Not to mention Alphaville

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  #92  
Old 09.10.2012, 23:27
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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I lived and worked in germany for 12 years, I like both the country and the people. I was never given any hassle or insults. Yet here I have been insulted, mobbed at work, and generally told to go away.

I have 5 German friends here, and I do feel sorry for them. They are well behaved, cultured and interesting, but are not welcome. I have met several Swiss people whom speak ill of the German race. They have introduced the subject, it might have been about eating, or driving or something and then they say "But the Germans here are always.. blah blah blah" which is usually different with my experiences.

I really think Swiss citizens have a big inferiority complex. It is a small nation and so they are not big at anything except looking after black money. Sure there are big things here, but when you check out world figures, they are not usually the top. I cannot see any other reason for this hostile anti German attitude, other than there has been heavy immigration from Germany over the past 10 years, the immigrants being well qualified and with good experience. This has probably been upsetting as somebody who is passed over for promotion by a foreign immigrant is not going to like the new boss at all.

.
Recent opinion polls have shown that a majority of Swiss citizens in spite of all the anti-German propaganda have positive considerations for the Germans.

Non-existing persons cannot be passed over. AND most German immigrants fill jobs where there simply are no local applicants. ZVV/VBZ hired a heavy number of train-drivers from Saxony (Leipzig&Dresden). Has anybody heard about Swiss train-drivers on the dole ? No, the gradual expansion of public transport only was possible thanks to those Saxons with their charming Saxon accent

YES, there are German top managers. But most of them were not coming from within the corps but were recruited by head-hunters. Once again, imagine that Zürich, which even including outer suburbs only has about 830'000 inhabitants has as many company-headquarters as places like Paris and Amsterdam. And the situation in Geneva and Basel is similar. Where should all the needed top managers come from ? Green small men from Mars ?

Are there heaps of teachers and medical doctors on the dole in and around Zürich ? No, but thanks to German teachers, children now possibly willl not have seven teachers (teacheresses) within the first 3 years of school ! Medical care is secured not least thanks to German doctors and German male and female nurses. I get a monthly injection at the Uni-Spital and last time it was done by a chap who has the name of the first German Imperial President. His injection did not hurt, was swift and efficient.

Such things of course are a "give and take". In 1945, Gross-Admiral Karl von Dönitz had just surrendered, my Grand-Dad on the mother-side told my Dad "War is over and now Europe has to grow together again as best as possible". So, Dad took over care of a family from EastPrussia-Sudetenland and GrandDad of a family from Stettin. The son of the lady from Königsberg had his bed in our apartment for some years in the 50ies when he studied medical science at Zch-University. And who taught me to speak. And my parents and me in 1968 were guests of his mother in Memmingen for "Tee & Kuchen" but in reality had rather two meals per person and were treated like Kings. We "en famille" met the Stettin lady and her husband in 66 at the Schluchsee in the BlackForest, and the man spoilt my brother and me with local delicacies, and when my father wanted to pay at least our share, he stopped Dad and said "you have helped my wife out of deep sh... and you quite clearly have forgiven us Germans what we did in the "1000 years" and never even mentioned it. It is my turn to show our deep appreciation for the kind of fairness which should be the stock for the Europe of the future"
--- Many many Swiss people were members of this vast program. And I am quite certain that whomever participated, including the children, learnt to know "the" Germans from a real side.

I take pride in saying that my parents and my older brother were Pan-Europeans until their end, and I take pride to say "Ich bin ein Europäer" While in Cairo I will take pride to say "ana Arab" but that is another topic

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  #93  
Old 09.10.2012, 23:38
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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.When i moved here I met lots of Germans, I have had one German flat mate and have another. He has a circle of German friends who come round, and of course at work there are many Germans. Once I asked my previous and current flat mate how they are educated about the wars? What are they brought up believing and what are they told? I was very surprised, but perhaps not in hindsight, to hear they did not like to talk about it. Very similar reactions across the board since raising this question. Embarrassment, apologetic, detached, outraged.
...
argh, dont mention the war!!
Surprising also for me (maybe they weren't real Germans, i.e. maybe from the East or Turks or other foreigners? ), as Germany's national hobby and the Germans' favorite topic is the war. They know everything about it, there are loads of publications, docs and whatever one could imagine (and kids already learn at the primary school how to handle with embarassing questions in a honest way). This kind of approach has brought the people and the country some good, as one of the main conclusions is that at least the (large majority) western part got very lucky afterwards, so peace maintenance was one of the country's objectives.

Some negative points however did arise, as Germans nowadays tend to consider Germany (and strangely themselves, even if 90% of the actual population has no personal record of war times) far too much a victim and not an aggressor (i.e. in terms of aggression it's the Nazis who fell from Mars and in terms of the victims it's the Germans in the first place), which until ca. 25 years ago was hardly the case (Jenninger and the other fools like Walser e.g. were among the first idiots on stage). Opferschiff Gustloff, the Dresden bombing, Byebye Ostpreussen and all that depressing stuff have been put in trashy movies and depict Germany as a kind of mater dolorosa, which is not a nice thing to witness, especially in those days when Merkel thinks that she cannot show solidarity towards the "PIGS" as the poor German people has already suffered enough.



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You do realise that Italy and Spain are not neighbours, don't you. There's the little matter of France in between
No, they are neighbors and they were. Milan after the Italian wars was Spanish (then Austrian), there were links between first Aragona and then Spain with the 2 Sicilies and Naples and dynastic relationships with the Spanish and the French Bourbons.
And still today you have a linguistic impact of both, Castellano and French, in Southern Italian and of Català in Sardinia, Portuguese in Ligury and others, also without foreign domination but being commercial partners.

Not unlike the situation of Rule Britannia, the Mediterranean Sea was no barrier, but a trait d'union.
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  #94  
Old 09.10.2012, 23:38
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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If you want to be pedantic, Germany didn't exist at the time. As a looser concept, the Holy Roman Empire included a lot of territory that never became part of Germany (including much of Switzerland and even chunks of Northern Italy). So saying that Germany or Germans attacked or invaded Switzerland at that time is pretty much meaningless as a statement. It's a bit like saying that the UK invaded the Kingdom of Mercia.
Rather the other way round. What later became the Swiss Confederation in 1200 simply was part of the German Empire. Emperor Rudof II who had grown up on the Habsburg (an Aargauer-Agglo by todays standards) had given extensive autonomy of what now is Central Switzerland but his son, Aachen grown up Emperor Albrecht cancelled this autonomy, and by this started the slow but steady route to secession. When the Empire wanted to punish Luzern for siding with the Secessionists, the Secessionists aideed Luzern and succeeded in Sempach. When the Empire wanted to put the proud Free Imperial Cities of Zürich and Bern under the control of a bishop the local revolutionaries had their day and Zürich (1351) and Bern (1353) seceeeded the Empire and joined the Confederation. Graubünden only joined CH in 1803. Before, the GR-matters were NOT a concern of Switzerland.

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Old 09.10.2012, 23:44
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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Swiss Germans dont really have a problem with the French i think
imo its the Britains, Americans and Australians mostly
depending on the times. German speaking Switzerland was heavily opposed to French Imperial rule in Napoleonic times and so welcomed to get liberated by the intervention armies of the Russian Empire.

Here the memorial to Russian Imperial General Suworow


Suworow-Denkmal 1799 fand eine schwere Schlacht bei der Teufelsbrücke statt. Die Russen, unter der Führung von General Suworow, bezwangen die Franzosen.
Zum Gedenken an die gefallenen russischen Soldaten, wurde das Suworow-Denkmal errichtet.

near the St. Gotthard / San Gottardo

************************************************** ****************

I cannot see any problems Swiss people have with Americans or Brits or Australians, people of countries with whom Switzerland was in a defacto alliance for more than a Century and a half
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  #96  
Old 09.10.2012, 23:53
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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Sorry Tom, but what do you mean?

As far as I know, they don't share a border...
no need to go back in history, either.
J.Marple has a point - our traditional mutual rivalry and antipathy is not with the Spaniards - they are too far away - but indeed with the French: "i cugini d'oltralpe" (the cousins from the other side of the Alps).
no idea how they call us italians, though
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  #97  
Old 10.10.2012, 00:01
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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You do realise that Italy and Spain are not neighbours, don't you. There's the little matter of France in between
NO, simply look at the map and tell me what you find between the Italian island (region) of Sardinia and Catalonia



France ? No, between Cagliari and Palma de Mallorca you have no square centimeter of France but and Italian-Spanish seaborder. YES, Italy and Spain are neighbours as are Spain and Morocco/Algeria and Italy and Tunisia. The Mediterranean for 6000 years of history was NOT a dividing line but rather a connection
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Old 10.10.2012, 00:01
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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Sorry Tom, but what do you mean?

As far as I know, they don't share a border...
They DO ! It is a seaborder. And seaborders are official
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Old 10.10.2012, 00:05
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

I remember a friend once telling me that many Europeans are a bit discriminating against Germans (a remnant mentality of the war, I suppose). But perhaps the reasons are a bit different here in CH -- more economical -- since I guess so many Swiss jobs are taken by Germans.

Ugh.

It seems like people will always find someone to dislike.
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Old 10.10.2012, 00:06
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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no need to go back in history, either.
J.Marple has a point - our traditional mutual rivalry and antipathy is not with the Spaniards - they are too far away - but indeed with the French: ...
I doubt that. In many Italian towns you could read till a couple of years ago on the walls of some buildings (now it's less, due to the Spanish crisis and general sympathy with the PIGS) "Spagna vergogna d'Europa" for the corrida, the Civil War, Franco, Juan Carlos and his links with Saudi Arabia and whatever.


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...
... "i cugini d'oltralpe" (the cousins from the other side of the Alps).
no idea how they call us italians, though
E.g. ritals?
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