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  #101  
Old 10.10.2012, 00:12
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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since I guess so many Swiss jobs are taken by Germans...
The problem isnt Germans "taking" anybodys job, (nobody is TAKING anybodys job, it's not like somebody has to leave their job and leave room for a German...yet), anyway, many Germans in Switzerland are holding high and low management positions, and many Swiss (and others ) are not comfortable about their "management/leadership style"...
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  #102  
Old 10.10.2012, 00:22
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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I doubt that. In many Italian towns you could read till a couple of years ago on the walls of some buildings (now it's less, due to the Spanish crisis and general sympathy with the PIGS) "Spagna vergogna d'Europa" for the corrida, the Civil War, Franco, Juan Carlos and his links with Saudi Arabia and whatever.

E.g. ritals?
sorry, I don't understand, what do you mean by "ritals"?
I cannot remember ever having seen these slogans. besides, with our own inglorious recent past what lessons could we ever give any other country??

but what do you mean with "general sympathy with the PIGS"??

we are not speaking of real hate, it's just a sentiment of rivalry and Spain was always too far away to be bothered. with the French it's more about culture, art, cuisine... we both think we have the best, c'est tout
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  #103  
Old 10.10.2012, 00:29
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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Ok, now you are biting your tongue. Switzerland was voted, this year, as the Nr 1 competitive country in the world! They pay the highest salaries in the world, and are favored for their democracy. When something has the label "Made in Switzerland" it is respected and esteemed. Did you know that a Swiss university is in the Top 20 universities in the world as well? It's like you are living in another country. Do you actually know anything about Switzerland. By the way Switzerland and Germany get along just fine. Switzerland is Germany's biggest trading partner in Europe.
Maybe the number one competitive country, but that is not what I said. I said they are not very big in anything except looking after black money, where they are in the top 5. Yes the ETH is in the top 20 universities of the world, the other 19 are Anglo-Saxon. Many things "Made in Switzerland" are only packaged in Switzerland. 15 years ago I bought some Migros frozen "Swiss chicken" and on the box in very tiny letters was printed "Product of Republic of China"
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  #104  
Old 10.10.2012, 00:31
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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sorry, I don't understand, what do you mean by "ritals"?
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One of the bad words for "Italians" in French.


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I cannot remember ever having seen these slogans. besides, with our own inglorious recent past what lessons could we ever give any other country??
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Italians tend to underestimate heavily the own country's role and its progress. E.g. as in comparison on many fields with Spain, Italy is another world.


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... but what do you mean with "general sympathy with the PIGS"??
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Also depending on what the "I" in "PIGS" stands for (Ireland or Italy?), Italy collocates itself (thank God) in the Anti-German coalition.


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we are not speaking of real hate, it's just a sentiment of rivalry and Spain was always too far away to be bothered.
...
I don't think so. Until a couple of years ago there were many studies and publications that put Spain equal or even ahead of Italy, which bothered Italians not only a little. However every person knowing a bit of Spain knew that this was nothing but bullsh**t. Now it's obvious those publications disappeared.


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... with the French it's more about culture, art, cuisine... we both think we have the best, c'est tout
Don't know. I think that on that Italians do overestimate the country's contribution.
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  #105  
Old 10.10.2012, 00:32
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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I remember a friend once telling me that many Europeans are a bit discriminating against Germans (a remnant mentality of the war, I suppose). But perhaps the reasons are a bit different here in CH -- more economical -- since I guess so many Swiss jobs are taken by Germans.

Ugh.

It seems like people will always find someone to dislike.
No, as practically no jobs are "taken" by the Germans. But the older generation, dominant in many ways until almost the present, heavily resented the Germans due to the war. So, not different, but exactly the same. Mum wanted to study fashion, but only succeeded in having it in Paris in 1937 and 38 but for obvious reasons had to forget about Vienna and Milano, and perceived Switzerland in 1939 to 45 as a kind of "democratic prison" as did uncountable other Swiss of those times. One uncle had definite plans in the late 30ies to go to Batavia but also had to forget it. Another uncle who had lived in West Australia in the early 30ies was stopped from getting out and up again. Another uncle was in Agadir (later on in Oran, Rabat, Algiers, Bamako and finally Marrakech), working on the harbour-dam there, originally under orders of the French government but then under orders from the Royal Navy, and was prohibited even to send letters back home (to Lausanne, Neuchâtel and Basel)

Granddad on the mother-side lost some of his previously best friends (in Germany), some who became Nazis and others who "disappeared", and so Grandmum was in split feelings, at times bitter and angry about "diä chaibe Sauschwoobe" and at times feeling her close ties to Germany "der Hohentwiehl ist auch unser Haus-Berg" . Simply imagine that the "home-cities" of the wider family of Granddad were Schaffhausen, Singen and Konstanz.

You may remember 1992 when Switzerland narrowly voted against the EEA European Economic Area. It was the older generation, the WWII generation who saw the EEA/EWR as a kind of "Anschluss" and nothing else. If you looked at the results you could see vast NO majorities all along the German border, but YES majorities along the borders of Austria and France.
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  #106  
Old 10.10.2012, 00:55
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

I think the Europe - and possibly the World - you are envisaging with such strict lines and boundaries and reciprocal hypothetical antipathies based on studies and assumptions is OLD and surpassed.

we are all in the same boat today, united by global financial and social issues. so it is a fallacy to think in terms of "italians hate the french", "the brits hate the germans" etc. our economies and societies are far too intertwined to allow us such petty, subjective instincts.
time to switch on our brain and go back to Erasmus and the other fathers (and mothers) of the european spirit.
and welcome switzerland, of course

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One of the bad words for "Italians" in French.



Italians tend to underestimate heavily the own country's role and its progress. E.g. as in comparison on many fields with Spain, Italy is another world.




Also depending on what the "I" in "PIGS" stands for (Ireland or Italy?), Italy collocates itself (thank God) in the Anti-German coalition.




I don't think so. Until a couple of years ago there were many studies and publications that put Spain equal or even ahead of Italy, which bothered Italians not only a little. However every person knowing a bit of Spain knew that this was nothing but bullsh**t. Now it's obvious those publications disappeared.




Don't know. I think that on that Italians do overestimate the country's contribution.
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  #107  
Old 10.10.2012, 01:15
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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I think the Europe - and possibly the World - you are envisaging with such strict lines and boundaries and reciprocal hypothetical antipathies based on studies and assumptions is OLD and surpassed.
...
Why "me"? I didn't say in any word I would share those common antipathies (except for some minority groups like the new rich in Switzerland but again at least they reput part of their money in the economic circle so there is some good in this, too) or more or less serious ingroup-outgroup stigmata (besides my "thank God Italy is in the anti-German coalition", which I mean, as I hate German self-pity and Germany's hybris in its thinking to run the Global economy and its self-destroying effort to doom the European project).

I only tried to point out that they might exist (and it was you to ask for a bad word the French would call the Italians), and you gave a good example of that in mentioning the French-Italian rivalvry for cultural issues the world does not care much about imho, except Italy and France (and the world goes on in its rude trashy Anglo-saxon Germanic way, even the Chinese adopt to).

P.S. I did see the smiley, yes.
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  #108  
Old 10.10.2012, 01:16
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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I think the Europe - and possibly the World - you are envisaging with such strict lines and boundaries and reciprocal hypothetical antipathies based on studies and assumptions is OLD and surpassed.

we are all in the same boat today, united by global financial and social issues. so it is a fallacy to think in terms of "italians hate the french", "the brits hate the germans" etc. our economies and societies are far too intertwined to allow us such petty, subjective instincts.
time to switch on our brain and go back to Erasmus and the other fathers (and mothers) of the european spirit.
and welcome switzerland, of course
your statement is a bit too idealistic and too theoretical. Sure, what CDG and Konrad Adenauer startet indeed lead to one of the best partnerships in the world. Unfrtunately however, ancient prejudices and antipathies are still poisoning intra-European relations. Such instincts you mention will for quite a while dominate the minds of many.
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  #109  
Old 10.10.2012, 02:11
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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Maybe the number one competitive country, but that is not what I said. I said they are not very big in anything except looking after black money, where they are in the top 5. Yes the ETH is in the top 20 universities of the world, the other 19 are Anglo-Saxon. Many things "Made in Switzerland" are only packaged in Switzerland. 15 years ago I bought some Migros frozen "Swiss chicken" and on the box in very tiny letters was printed "Product of Republic of China"
What you said doesn't matter in the larger scheme of things. You are basing your assumptions purely on theory. Show me where Switzerland is in the Top 5 for black money. Make it good. Show me the statistics. I'm waiting...
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  #110  
Old 10.10.2012, 03:41
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

[QUOTE=Bucentaure;1684200]

I didn't say they do master, but that they can easily understand Schwyzertütsch. What they make out of it, in another thing.

But - in the contrary to other immigrants - they do have an immediate access to verbal and written communication.




This is Swiss self-perception, linguistically not true (reference e.g. Ulrich Ammon).

Self perception? I disagree, and so does the Swiss person sitting next to me. And I have my own books that debunk your's. But whatever. I know from personal experience, linguistically there is a difference from this rock to that pole.



Basically I disagree with most of what you say, but think that it is so obvious, I don't even have the interest to explain it to you, other then to tell you to go out of your house and hear the difference.
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  #111  
Old 10.10.2012, 10:00
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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Both. As you could deduct from my poor syntax and strange diction, I am a native German.

And, btw. as I know my Pappenheimer I do not like certain ways Germans behave. Not at all. And I do understand a good load of the Swiss' criticism towards German immigrants very well, more than I would like to.
You see: You and I are both German, but our points of view are more often than not diametral opposites. Perfect example that there is no "the Germans" do this or that or behave in a certain way. Generalizations are usually rubbish, but even more so in a culturally diverse country of the size of Germany (and don't get me started on "the Indians" or "the Chinese"...).

Have I met Germans that fulfill the stereotypes Swiss have against me? Absolutely. The way you write your posts for example fits the bill for that bossy Prussian quite nicely. But that does not mean that the direct hostility one can witness in Zurich is in any way justifiable. I have no problem with any joke on stereotypes. But I do have an issue with deep and direct hate I have seen more than once - I simply cannot get my head around it and some minor cultural differences are not enough for me to explain them.
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  #112  
Old 10.10.2012, 10:14
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

What cracks me up is that all the crap the Swiss Germans say and think about the Germans is exactly the same as the one the Romands say and think about the Swiss Germans... The small ones have to hate the big ones, regardless of what the big one is. The smaller Danes also hate the bigger Swedes when no foreigner is around, but suddenly love them when a German or a French is there. Same Thing everwhere.
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  #113  
Old 10.10.2012, 10:53
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Re: Rise is Anti German culture

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The Vorarlbergers are "Swiss in disguise"
but do they stare?
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  #114  
Old 10.10.2012, 13:24
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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You see: You and I are both German, but our points of view are more often than not diametral opposites. Perfect example that there is no "the Germans" do this or that or behave in a certain way. Generalizations are usually rubbish, but even more so in a culturally diverse country of the size of Germany (and don't get me started on "the Indians" or "the Chinese"...).
...
Most generalizations are rubbish, indeed.

However, there are some certain behaviors that one culture/region/ambiente could either block or enhance, depending upon multiple factors like public opinion, political system ore whatever. Which shows that there is no real planned intention behind from the person in question, however it might be that behaviors on certain issues might differ not only from one person to the other, but also from region to region or cultural background to another.


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Have I met Germans that fulfill the stereotypes Swiss have against me? Absolutely. The way you write your posts for example fits the bill for that bossy Prussian quite nicely.
...
No problem with that (however you did fail to recognize me as a German, so did Amogles, and I did fail to understand that she/he's British and not German),

however what I don't understand is how come Germans in Switzerland, if they feel they get some bashing on their nationality, don't adapt to the language after so many years (is it so difficult? OK I admit easy talking for me as my 2d language is Italian, living in Ticino) to get rid of being discovered as a German once they open their mouth (and consider a relatively fresh person from the US and GB can be discovered from miles away, already by his clothing and the way he walks, what he eats, e.g., a German cannot). Do you really want to tell me that speaking a dialect of one's own language (the challenge for the Germans) is more difficult than learning a completely new language and its dialect (which all other immigrants to the Swiss German part of CH have to face)? Really impossibile that German public opinion has found another theme to depict Germans as victims?

And what is really astonishing for me is that on the one hand you don't want to talk about generalizations (so tell me how one could consider a cliché without discussing an artificial ingroup-outgroup barrier), doing by the way the same thing regarding the Swiss in your posts above, that were not that much charming either.
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  #115  
Old 10.10.2012, 13:32
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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What cracks me up is that all the crap the Swiss Germans say and think about the Germans is exactly the same as the one the Romands say and think about the Swiss Germans...
...
... and as the Ticinese say and think about Swiss Germans, alongside.

Maybe even much worse.
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  #116  
Old 10.10.2012, 13:46
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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What cracks me up is that all the crap the Swiss Germans say and think about the Germans is exactly the same as the one the Romands say and think about the Swiss Germans... The small ones have to hate the big ones, regardless of what the big one is. The smaller Danes also hate the bigger Swedes when no foreigner is around, but suddenly love them when a German or a French is there. Same Thing everwhere.
The Zürchers hate the Aargauers until a German comes along when they're suddenly best friends.

People who are more similar to ourselves tend to wind us up more than people who are totally different. That's why we tend to squabble with our siblings. Because we are so similar, the differences stick out all the more and get us worked up.

The Romands are much more like the Swiss Germans than they like to admit. They like to underly the differences, but all that is part of the denial mechanism. However, the Romands have much less trouble with the Germans as they are already two steps separate. Same with the Swiss Germans versus the French or Italians.

For the same reason we Brits like to make fun of Americans although secretly we understand them much better than we let on and probably also agree with them much more than we'll admit. Same with the Brits and the Germans to some extent.
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  #117  
Old 10.10.2012, 13:57
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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how come Germans in Switzerland, if they feel they get some bashing on their nationality, don't adapt to the language after so many years .
Because the language is German, not Swiss-German. A Hamburger living in München does not take over Bavarian dialect. Hence not in Zürich either.. The Saupreiss kind of antagonism is no way near the situation in Switzerland, especially Zürich (milder in Basel if you ask me). You want to be Swisser than the Swiss, please proceed. Said Swiss won't tell you that you fail at it anyway. The rule north of the Alps is: Once German, always German. Enjoy Ticino, you chose right to be the way you want to be.
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  #118  
Old 10.10.2012, 14:20
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Re: Rise is Anti German culture

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Yes but, generally speaking, they're the ones who have stopped trying to actively integrate with the Swiss, have learned to ignore the widespread narrow-mindedness and xenophobia, have moved on an merged with the expat society and maybe have eventually, over the years, made some Swiss friends.
Generally speaking you are totally wrong. That may be true for German expat managers who feel more at home with an international crowd than in their Swiss village of residence, but almost all other Germans simply gets on with their life and have no idea that Englishforum, Glocals or even expat meetups exist. Sure, some new arrivals might struggle, but of the dozens of Germans working in my previous company none had any real problems integrating, they simply live and work here, like all the other immigrants to Zürich, the Swiss included. And to deride the general Swiss opinion about Germans based on a few extremists is equally wrong; the Germans are the most popular immigrants in Switzerland (the most popular foreign residents: Italians) according to several polls. The issue is not who they are, but how many are arriving.

But I'm sure you'd prefer to keep your prejudices towards xenophobic Swiss.
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  #119  
Old 10.10.2012, 14:26
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

Very interesting thread



PS the bloke in the picture is a Brit
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  #120  
Old 10.10.2012, 14:37
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Re: Rise is Anti German culture

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the Germans are the most popular immigrants in Switzerland (the most popular foreign residents: Italians) according to several polls. The issue is not who they are, but how many are arriving.
It's always the same issue with general comments, positive or negative: when a Swiss makes a general comment about Germans over-flooding whatever, it is hard not to take it personally: "Do you mean I as German over-flood YOU?".
- No you don't - thinks actually the Swiss. Said Swiss might sound xenophobic, however it's never about the actual one German in front of him. We all do it about some people we've had some less pleasing experiences with, but not attacking the actual people of those nationalities we have in front of you. I have VERY negative shocking experiences with Brits, and still, I'm here and practice my English.

Keeping this in mind when one hears those general comments regularly is difficult, but hey, life is hard in general.
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