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  #121  
Old 10.10.2012, 14:41
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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I really think Swiss citizens have a big inferiority complex. It is a small nation and so they are not big at anything except looking after black money. Sure there are big things here, but when you check out world figures, they are not usually the top.
I find it surprising how little you seem to know of Switzerland and the Swiss after having lived here for so long. Switzerland is "big" in a lot of fields, and they know it. #1 innovation #1 quality of life #1 salary after taxes #1 coffee #1 chocolate #1 commodities #1 pharma just to cite a few examples. Sure, the Swiss know they're a small country and hate to be bullied by its larger neighbour, but if anything they consider their system/economy/society/whatnot superior to most other countries. Not saying I agree, but there sure as hell isn't much of an inferiority complex on a national level.
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  #122  
Old 10.10.2012, 14:42
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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... and as the Ticinese say and think about Swiss Germans, alongside.

Maybe even much worse.
You mean the "zucchini"?

Tom
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  #123  
Old 10.10.2012, 14:46
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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The Romands are much more like the Swiss Germans than they like to admit.
Indeed, in Ticino they are considered to be the same, i.e. "Svizzera Interna" does NOT mean "Innerschweiz", it means ALL of the non-Italian speaking bits!

Tom
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  #124  
Old 10.10.2012, 14:49
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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I find it surprising how little you seem to know of Switzerland and the Swiss after having lived here for so long. Switzerland is "big" in a lot of fields, and they know it. #1 innovation #1 quality of life #1 salary after taxes #1 coffee #1 chocolate #1 commodities #1 pharma just to cite a few examples. Sure, the Swiss know they're a small country and hate to be bullied by its larger neighbour, but if anything they consider their system/economy/society/whatnot superior to most other countries. Not saying I agree, but there sure as hell isn't much of an inferiority complex on a national level.
i'd disagree:

#1 innovation - i'd say the US easily holds this crown
#1 quality of life - a bit subjective, but i'd give the edge to other countries (surely no country with laundry rotas, awkward shopping hours and a myriad of petty rules governing various aspects of everyday living could be allowed to claim #1 in quality of life)
#1 salary after taxes - definite winner at the moment
#1 coffee - not really a coffee drinker so can't really comment, but i know some italians who would disagree
#1 chocolate - i'd give you this one overall (some belgians may disagree)
#1 commodities - really? over chicago and london?
#1 pharma - possibly

i think clean water, clean air and a direct democracy are under-rated advantages of switzerland.
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  #125  
Old 10.10.2012, 14:51
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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#1 coffee
Surely you're joking?

Better than coffee from other parts of the German speaking world, and certainly better than any English speaking country, sure, but Italian coffee is FAR better.

Tom
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  #126  
Old 10.10.2012, 14:57
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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Where on earth did you read that?! Germany is Switzerlands biggest export market, which is quite logical as Germany is the biggest market in Europe. But vice versa does it look pretty differently: Obviously are countries like France way more important for the German economy than Switzerland. Even Poland buys more German goods than Switzerland...
Read your source again Trev: Poland imports fewer Germand goods than Switzerland and Switzerland is Germany's largest non-EU trading partner (7th largest importer in Europe) It further imports much more (in absolute, not percentage terms) than it exports to Germany,
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  #127  
Old 10.10.2012, 14:58
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

the first couple minutes of this made me giggle...



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  #128  
Old 10.10.2012, 15:01
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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Surely you're joking?

Better than coffee from other parts of the German speaking world, and certainly better than any English speaking country, sure, but Italian coffee is FAR better.

Tom
I'm talking quantity, not quality Tom. Switzerland is by far the largest coffee trader, largest (professional) coffee machine producer, all major innovations in coffee were made in Switzerland... and yet.. the coffee here is obviously never as good as in Italy...
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  #129  
Old 10.10.2012, 15:03
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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Because the language is German, not Swiss-German. A Hamburger living in München does not take over Bavarian dialect. Hence not in Zürich either..

Not Swiss-German? What do you mean by that?

Anyhow, I meant "if one bothers so much from anti-German bashing you have years to learn the dialect, which is easier than learning a new language and the dialect in the meantime".

So if a German faces that much trouble with being German, he can adapt, also if that needs time, of course.


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The Saupreiss kind of antagonism is no way near the situation in Switzerland, ...
....
Isn't this exaggerated? I can have a good fight with some Swiss German friends, and believe me, they can beat me.


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You want to be Swisser than the Swiss, please proceed. Said Swiss won't tell you that you fail at it anyway. The rule north of the Alps is: Once German, always German. Enjoy Ticino, you chose right to be the way you want to be.
Well actually I didn't "choose". I always used to be living also in Ticino, among other places.

I know what it means being a newbie to a country, however I don't know what's it about being a newbie to Switzerland (that's what I want to understand, if I can).


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Switzerland is "big" in a lot of fields, and they know it. #1 innovation #1 quality of life #1 salary after taxes #1 coffee #1 chocolate #1 commodities #1 pharma just to cite a few examples. Sure, the Swiss know they're a small country and hate to be bullied by its larger neighbour, but if anything they consider their system/economy/society/whatnot superior to most other countries. Not saying I agree, but there sure as hell isn't much of an inferiority complex on a national level.
I agree on your general message about the beforementioned imho non-existing "inferiority complex",

however reducing Switzerland to a vague "quality of life" and "innovation" paradise (which imho is not true at all, or let's say only partially, depending upon the field) is undervalueing Switzerland by far.


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You mean the "zucchini"?

"Zucchini" is already quite cute.
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  #130  
Old 10.10.2012, 15:06
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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i'd disagree:

#1 innovation - i'd say the US easily holds this crown
#1 quality of life - a bit subjective, but i'd give the edge to other countries (surely no country with laundry rotas, awkward shopping hours and a myriad of petty rules governing various aspects of everyday living could be allowed to claim #1 in quality of life)
#1 salary after taxes - definite winner at the moment
#1 coffee - not really a coffee drinker so can't really comment, but i know some italians who would disagree
#1 chocolate - i'd give you this one overall (some belgians may disagree)
#1 commodities - really? over chicago and london?
#1 pharma - possibly

i think clean water, clean air and a direct democracy are under-rated advantages of switzerland.
This wasn't a subjective assessment Phil, but based on actual figures. Switzerland ranks as the most innovative and liveable country (or the country with the most liveable cities rather) in most rankings. It dominates the coffee market (among many other commodities, is about to overtake London as the biggest oil trader too), largest producer of chocolate, pharma and so on. Again, on a subjective level we could disagree on many of these points, but Switzerland ranks among the top 20 economies and is anything but a quaint little banking paradise, that's what I meant to say.
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  #131  
Old 10.10.2012, 15:07
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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"Zucchini" is already quite cute.
Well, certainly better than "crucchi"!

(see, they differentiate between German-Swiss and Germans in Ticino )

Tom
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  #132  
Old 10.10.2012, 15:12
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

"Cozze della Svizzera interna", "stranieri", in Romandie "bourbines", etc.

is not really nicer than "crucchi".
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  #133  
Old 10.10.2012, 15:31
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

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Because the language is German, not Swiss-German. A Hamburger living in München does not take over Bavarian dialect. Hence not in Zürich either.. The Saupreiss kind of antagonism is no way near the situation in Switzerland, especially Zürich (milder in Basel if you ask me). You want to be Swisser than the Swiss, please proceed. Said Swiss won't tell you that you fail at it anyway. The rule north of the Alps is: Once German, always German. Enjoy Ticino, you chose right to be the way you want to be.
I have heard alot of Germans trying to speak Swissgerman and it sounds horrible
Likewise alotta Swiss ppl that try to talk German sound terrible
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  #134  
Old 10.10.2012, 15:46
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Re: Rise is Anti German culture

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Said Swiss might sound xenophobic, however it's never about the actual one German in front of him.
FFS it is exactly that. The example of the OP was without a doubt xenophobic and very personal at the girl. The Swiss guy was not having a philosophical argument about the pros and cons of immigration, he was very rude to the girl solely because of her nationality. Nobody here says that all Swiss are like this, but most Germans in Switzerland including me made some very similar experiences that even you won't be able to bullshit away.

That is the whole point of this thread: not some financial numbers in foreign trade, not some linguisitic details of the various German dialects and not the jokes every nation on this planet makes about their neighbours. Direct and outright racism and hate.

Simple example I encountered first hand myself. I was early for an expat drink taking a beer at a bar in Zurich.

Middle aged Swiss female, probably had some beers already "Excuse me, do you have a lighter?"
Me - I am sorry, but I do not smoke.
She - You are GERMAN!
Me - Er, yes... I guess my language gives this away.
She - I don't like you folks! You are "Gummihaelse"! That's what we call you... (explains me the term which I obviously knew while I am frankly speechless.)
Me - ?
She - I think there are far too many of you here now!
Me - Erm, ok... (turn away and look at my beer)
She - Really! The last years it got worse and worse! ... blablabla jobs blablabla flats got expensive blablabla her friend did not get promoted but a German boss instead...
Me - Look, I am not exactly hitting on you, why don't you just leave me alone.
She - I guess it is about time that someone tells you how WE feel.
Me - I just hope you are only drunk or something...

Is the stupid lady just representing a tiny fraction of the Swiss? Probably yes. She was quite obviously not very educated and from a working class background. But she really meant it and I am sure that guy from the OPs story was the same sort.

Did this have any impact on how I viewed my Swiss friends: Obviously not, but it did have an impact how welcome I felt overall in the country. This was my most extreme encounter, but not the only negative comment I got for being German. All of it ads up.

From my perspective does Zurich has different standards of what is acceptable of behaviour towards German immigrants than other groups. If this would happen to a black guy would somebody in the bar for sure speak up and tell her that her rant is racist.
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  #135  
Old 10.10.2012, 15:49
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Re: Rise is Anti German culture

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She - I think there are far too many of you here now!
I would have replied:

If you were sober you would be seeing only one of me.
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  #136  
Old 10.10.2012, 15:56
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Re: Rise is Anti German culture

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I would have replied:

If you were sober you would be seeing only one of me.
As many here I met in RL will attest do I generally have the gift to gab - but this was so uncalled for that I was literally stunned with an open mouth. I am far from a PC person and can stand much worse insult, but what caught me was that she was not joking at all. Dead seriously convinced about the shit and also convinced that it is her right if not duty to tell me the way she did...
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  #137  
Old 10.10.2012, 16:02
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Re: Rise is Anti German culture

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FFS it is exactly that. The example of the OP was without a doubt xenophobic and very personal at the girl. The Swiss guy was not having a philosophical argument about the pros and cons of immigration, he was very rude to the girl solely because of her nationality. Nobody here says that all Swiss are like this, but most Germans in Switzerland including me made some very similar experiences that even you won't be able to bullshit away.

That is the whole point of this thread: not some financial numbers in foreign trade, not some linguisitic details of the various German dialects and not the jokes every nation on this planet makes about their neighbours. Direct and outright racism and hate.

Simple example I encountered first hand myself. I was early for an expat drink taking a beer at a bar in Zurich.

Middle aged Swiss female, probably had some beers already "Excuse me, do you have a lighter?"
Me - I am sorry, but I do not smoke.
She - You are GERMAN!
Me - Er, yes... I guess my language gives this away.
She - I don't like you folks! You are "Gummihaelse"! That's what we call you... (explains me the term which I obviously knew while I am frankly speechless.)
Me - ?
She - I think there are far too many of you here now!
Me - Erm, ok... (turn away and look at my beer)
She - Really! The last years it got worse and worse! ... blablabla jobs blablabla flats got expensive blablabla her friend did not get promoted but a German boss instead...
Me - Look, I am not exactly hitting on you, why don't you just leave me alone.
She - I guess it is about time that someone tells you how WE feel.
Me - I just hope you are only drunk or something...

Is the stupid lady just representing a tiny fraction of the Swiss? Probably yes. She was quite obviously not very educated and from a working class background. But she really meant it and I am sure that guy from the OPs story was the same sort.

Did this have any impact on how I viewed my Swiss friends: Obviously not, but it did have an impact how welcome I felt overall in the country. This was my most extreme encounter, but not the only negative comment I got for being German. All of it ads up.

From my perspective does Zurich has different standards of what is acceptable of behaviour towards German immigrants than other groups. If this would happen to a black guy would somebody in the bar for sure speak up and tell her that her rant is racist.
I think the second WW(see Poland-German, Dutch-German) and the high immigration numbers are the main reasons for the antipathy.

It probably wont change for another generation.
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  #138  
Old 10.10.2012, 16:04
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Re: Rise is Anti German culture

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Nobody here says that all Swiss are like this, but most Germans in Switzerland including me made some very similar experiences that even you won't be able to bullshit away.
...
Shitty experiences are part of one's life. Why do you think this would be limited on Germans only?


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Is the stupid lady just representing a tiny fraction of the Swiss? Probably yes. She was quite obviously not very educated and from a working class background. But she really meant it and I am sure that guy from the OPs story was the same sort.
...
So why would you take it so seriously, if you know that probably it's a tiny fraction to really think this way (apart from your statement about working class and education/getting drunken)?


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but it did have an impact how welcome I felt overall in the country. This was my most extreme encounter, but not the only negative comment I got for being German. All of it ads up.
...
What did you tell us this morning about generalizing? Why is it so important for you to be "welcome" by everybody and making a point that you are German?
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  #139  
Old 10.10.2012, 16:10
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

I asked my Swiss friend if this is so ..... "Do the Swiss really dislike the Germans?"

He said Yes.
Why?
Because they are so loud!

What do you mean "Loud"?

So he took me to a Swiss restaurant, and said "Listen, can you actually hear what the people are discussing?"
No, I could only hear a general rumbling of conversation.

Then he took me to a German restaurant (just over the border)
Everyone was talking loud!

Do the Swiss not like noise?
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  #140  
Old 10.10.2012, 16:14
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Re: Rise in Anti German culture

When i was a kid and we went to Spain for vacation

My Moms would always try to speak Spanish to the Spanish ppl Waiters etc..
but most Germans there would talk German to the Waiters, and then when the Spanish waiters didnt understand they would act rude and unfriendly.
No intergration what so ever.

And this was already the case when my Grandma went to Spain

I have some German friends but im not a fan of many Germans in big groups
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