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Old 04.12.2012, 23:10
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How would my life change if I move to CH?

My family is contemplating a move to Basel and I would be curious to get the forums opinion on how our lives would change for the better or worse...thank you in advance for reading long post.

Here are some details on our situation:
French/American couple with two children ages 5 and 8
Currently live in a very close suburb of paris (15 min and in downtown Paris)
Live in a small townhouse so we have tiny garden but it is really city living. Can walk to shops, market etc.
Big park nearby (crowded of course)
Kids in public french schools but 8 year old is in a school that has a section for bilingual kids - this costs additional 2500 euros per year to support the english classes. She is truly bilingual. Hope to put sister in same program.
Both work and earn good "cadre" salaries for france. (local contracts)
Workday starts at 9-930 and ends at 7pm - commute is 40 min door to door (so we are home at 8 and kids go to bed around 8:30 or 9)
We have 9 weeks of vacation
Finally started to build a sense of community. After 5 years have found some mixed couple anglo/french or otherwise that are not here on short term contracts. We have no family close by.

Moving to Basel would increase our salaries 30 percent. We work in pharma

So here are the key questions: Will our QoL significantly increase? (skiing every weekend? Access to big lakes etc. getting home early?) Is life good on the french side? or better to live in Basel - city living, more mixed couples like us, swiss system is more stable (ie retirement system?) We are looking at this as a long term decision and would like to stay there at least until our kids are grown. Anyone in our situation make this move an regret it?

Thanks for your thoughts.
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Old 05.12.2012, 00:16
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Re: How would my life change if I move to CH?

Hi Kab,

I don't have a family but I do have experience of moving from London and working in Basel. For me the quality of life has increased. Skiing is amazing in Switzerland this is undisputed. My salary is significantly higher and tax is lower. I have nicer accommodation. I have learnt a lot about the world and Europe. Driving to France, Germany and Italy can be done any weekend.

However, its best to concentrate on what you will miss. Basel is a reasonably quiet place but with some big companies. From Paris you will miss the vast array of things to do, shopping, plentiful cheap restaurants and the general buzz of the city, among other things. Things I miss:
Feeling like there endless options of things to do in the city
Cheap restaurants from any corner if the world
Going for beers on Friday
Loads of friends which are hard to replace

Things I don't miss:
Packed buses
Crime
Small overpriced accommodation
Not having a car


This is just off the topof my head, but you see my point. Basel and Switzerland won't solve everything or be paradise, but it will be an adventure and is certainly a great place for young people to grow up from what's see and hear.

Good luck!
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Old 05.12.2012, 00:26
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Re: How would my life change if I move to CH?

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We have 9 weeks of vacation.
You can forget about that in Basel. Read your Basel contract carefully for details.

Just a thought: you can work in Basel and live in France, your kids stay in the national system. You have to do your homework in Saint-Louis (the French small town at the border) because one of the collège has a rough reputation. Bilingual offer is German/English in Basel though. There is a French primary school in Basel too (école française de Bâle). There is a huge difference between school systems, it is worth asking yourself what you want for your children (French public, Swiss public, International IB private, Bilingual private, Swiss alternative pedagogy half-private etc.)

Think tax efficiency: with children, many people here say that it's worth living in France even if the Swiss taxes seems low at first sight. Do the maths with people who know the details (hence not me, sorry).
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Old 05.12.2012, 00:27
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Re: How would my life change if I move to CH?

I love it here, but I honestly can't see why you'd move. You have older kids who would be uprooted, a place in which you seem to be happy and settling in, and you're willing to give it up for a 30% raise? Things are pretty much 30% more expensive here anyhow...
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Old 05.12.2012, 00:28
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Re: How would my life change if I move to CH?

I suggest you come here first and see if you like it.

Best,
Kyle
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Old 05.12.2012, 00:36
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Re: How would my life change if I move to CH?

If you want to live in France and commute to Basel, don't just restrict yourself to Saint-Louis.
For example, Leymen is a pretty small village, but you have a regular tram service into Basel which runs late for entertainment and socialising.

And Paris is only 2h 45min by TGV when you want to visit friends
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Old 05.12.2012, 00:44
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Re: How would my life change if I move to CH?

I agree with doing your homework on schooling which will be a big issue, esp. if private or international schooling is considered. Then any financial gain may be a loss. And yes a 30% gain in salary likely also means a 30% more in expenses.

Keep in mind if you both work, and plan to do the same here, it will likely be quite an adjustment. Most things here are geared for the mother to stay home, so schooling hours and such will be very different if not impossible if both parents work. Add to this the other things like limited shopping hours, and designated laundry days, etc. that expect one parent to be home, can become quite frustrating if used to 24h city life.
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Old 05.12.2012, 00:58
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Thanks for replies so far. Certainly plan to make a trip to see first hand.

There was question about why give up for 30% increase. This is exactly my question. Our life is pretty good here even if it is stressful.

Here are some more details - for husband he would have a job that is more of a management position - something that is not easy to find and I am sure he would be happy to get this experience.

So it really boils down to if our QoL would be better. In my fantasy world it goes like this...
We live in a nice town/city where I still have some semblance of city living - my boulangerie is within walking distance. Once the kids get older they can easily meet up with their friends (i.e. I am not driving them everywhere) Kids (especially the 8 year old) easily makes new friends. We (the parents) meet some fun international couples who are permanent. Every weekend we go to ski and/or learn to sail on a lake. We are home by 6 pm to help with homework and perhaps to eat as a family during the week etc. Have good health benefits and retirement plan. Still take 3 week vacation in the summer. There are some good restaurants, shops, cultural activities etc. AND we save 30% more money.

My nightmare is something like this...
Not really possible to live in a nice place because it is expensive or it is slightly depressing place. People in general are rather grim and do not like to smile. We make good friends but they all move somewhere else after 2 years. Skiing on the weekend or sailing is too far/expensive. We are actually working more - more of an American concept of work - everyone is responding to their blackberries during the weekend and working late at the office. Vacation is limited. Health system and or retirement is complicated. Hard to find or get access to a good school because they are oversubscribed. The extra 30% never materializes due to higher expenses etc. Finally one of us loses our job and cannot find another one in a small town like Basel requiring us to move again (we are in pharma so the hope is that there would be something else there?)

Thoughts?

Did not realize that it is geared for one parent to stay at home. Is this really the case in Switzerland? Do they have the "mommy wars" - some people thinking you are a bad mother if you work?

If this attitude is true will it be different if we live on the french side?

Last edited by jrspet; 05.12.2012 at 01:02. Reason: Merging of successive posts
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Old 05.12.2012, 09:02
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Re: How would my life change if I move to CH?

Something else to think about that hasn't been mentioned. Many companies here use a flexible time system for working hours. There are usually core hours when you have to be at work and you must work a set amount of hours each week, but you have the flexibility to adjust your start/finish times. You say you both don't get home until 8pm and kids go to bed around 8.30pm. If you're looking for more quality family time then a move might be good for you. I don't know how far your commute is, but my OH works in Lausanne which is about 50 minutes drive away. He times it so he's arrives just after 7am and leaves work at 4pm so he's home by 5pm. Most people here are travelling to work between 7 and 8am and heading home between 4.30 and 5.30pm. You'd almost certainly have more time to spend with the kids once you get home.

You certainly won't get 9 weeks vacation, 3 or 4 weeks are the starting point for most companies and only increases by 1 or 2 days after several years of employment.

No, they don't have "mommy wars", in fact 80% of women here work. But it's usually part time because in many cases schools don't have eating places for lunch and sometimes the OH comes home for lunch too. So kids will start school at 8am, come home around 11.30-12 and then go back to school from 1-1.30 to 4pm and same for hubbies. Obviously once kids reach teenager phase they're more likely to go into town for a McDonalds or something, but for younger children it's home for lunch.

There's a couple of books that might be useful called "Living and Working in Switzerland" and "Buying and Renting in Switzerland". You can order them via your local bookshop or Amazon.
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Old 05.12.2012, 09:08
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Re: How would my life change if I move to CH?

One quick detail - not sure how far "too far" is for you for skiing, but there is nothing really within 3 hours (door to slope) of Basel as far as I know. With youngish kids, 5-6 hours committed to the day before you hit a slope might be too long.

I'd suggest that if skiing is important to you, you do some homework on locations
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Old 05.12.2012, 09:26
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Re: How would my life change if I move to CH?

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No, they don't have "mommy wars".
I would disagree here,. Yes it's ok to do some school hours part time pin-money job, but many of my friends have been told exactly that they are bad mothers because they work. We have stories here on EF where a potential employer didn't hire a woman, because she's a mother and should be home with her (teenage!) kids. Should not be such a problem if you're working for an international company though.

As for your dream life - if you really want to feel the payraise, you should consider living across the border in France. You can get a house with a garden for the same rent than you'd pay for a 1-bedroom in Basel. Trouble though is that Saint Louis is not exactly pretty and most other villages are very small - you might have a boulangerie, but not much else. Public transport often not so great either. So as you don't want to drive kids everywhere, you definitely want to find a place with decent public transport options.

There are many bilingual schools, but as said, German-French bilingual, haven't heard of a French-English one.

Yes, you should be able to find plenty of international friends in Basel.
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Old 05.12.2012, 09:26
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Re: How would my life change if I move to CH?

Hi there,

I love it here, dont get me wrong, but life is not easy. I don't know anyone with a good job who gets home by 6pm. And the 30% salary increase will be immediately swallowed by the increase cost of living. Keeping friends is very difficult as every time we meet nice couples to hang out with, they leave 2 years later to be relocated home, or another overseas country. Skiing is great, but after a few years you tend to not go as often or appreciate it as much (personally!). Overall I find the people quiet unpleasant and rude (there are exceptions).. but well I don't expect Parisians are a please neither!

So to be honest, it sounds closer to your nightmare, than the dream. I don't mean to be disheartening, but I'm just being honest and giving impartial advice.

Good luck either way!
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Old 05.12.2012, 09:40
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Re: How would my life change if I move to CH?

Nothing to add. However, I have never come across a job providing 9 weeks holiday. Is that the norm in Paris?
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Old 05.12.2012, 09:57
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Re: How would my life change if I move to CH?

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Nothing to add. However, I have never come across a job providing 9 weeks holiday. Is that the norm in Paris?
The standard vacation time is four weeks per year. Once you turn 50 years old, that goes up to five weeks. In some places/companies depending on your contract you get six weeks with 60 years of age.

Going on that plan, nine weeks of vacation time is possible once you reach 90 years of age and are still working
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Old 05.12.2012, 10:12
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Re: How would my life change if I move to CH?

Bring your microwave with you. There aren´t any here.
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Old 05.12.2012, 10:25
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Re: How would my life change if I move to CH?

The grass is not always greener on the other side...
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Old 05.12.2012, 10:27
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Re: How would my life change if I move to CH?

Lots of good advice on here - I guess the wisest response would to do as much homework as you possibly can before committing to the move.

Our experience in Vaud echoes a lot of what other expats have mentioned above - work hours are long (8.30am to 7.30pm at least) with sandwiches eaten at desk; commuting is often difficult; vacation time is minimal; salaries are high but so are costs (insurance, food, rent, private schooling); decent accommodation is massively expensive and difficult to find (might be different in Basel).

Expats here are in an odd position, work-wise. International clients may expect you to be reachable out-of-hours; you may not get local bank-holidays if your markets abroad are still open; you work long hours like the Swiss but don't necessarily benefit from the traditional Swiss lunchbreak where you go home to eat with your family.

I had a great full-time job - a career! - before I had children, but ended up spending my entire salary on childcare, so chose to give it up. Even now, with children the same age as yours, childcare options outside of school are very expensive and oversubscribed, unless you get an au-pair/nanny with all the problems that entails.

But the air is clean, crime is low and get to see my kids every lunchtime. It just took some (ongoing) readjustment in what I thought I'd be doing in my 30s...

Good luck with your decision!
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Old 05.12.2012, 10:48
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Re: How would my life change if I move to CH?

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Thanks for replies so far. Certainly plan to make a trip to see first hand.

There was question about why give up for 30% increase. This is exactly my question. Our life is pretty good here even if it is stressful.

Here are some more details - for husband he would have a job that is more of a management position - something that is not easy to find and I am sure he would be happy to get this experience.

So it really boils down to if our QoL would be better. In my fantasy world it goes like this...
We live in a nice town/city where I still have some semblance of city living - my boulangerie is within walking distance. Once the kids get older they can easily meet up with their friends (i.e. I am not driving them everywhere) Kids (especially the 8 year old) easily makes new friends. We (the parents) meet some fun international couples who are permanent. Every weekend we go to ski and/or learn to sail on a lake. We are home by 6 pm to help with homework and perhaps to eat as a family during the week etc. Have good health benefits and retirement plan. Still take 3 week vacation in the summer. There are some good restaurants, shops, cultural activities etc. AND we save 30% more money.

My nightmare is something like this...
Not really possible to live in a nice place because it is expensive or it is slightly depressing place. People in general are rather grim and do not like to smile. We make good friends but they all move somewhere else after 2 years. Skiing on the weekend or sailing is too far/expensive. We are actually working more - more of an American concept of work - everyone is responding to their blackberries during the weekend and working late at the office. Vacation is limited. Health system and or retirement is complicated. Hard to find or get access to a good school because they are oversubscribed. The extra 30% never materializes due to higher expenses etc. Finally one of us loses our job and cannot find another one in a small town like Basel requiring us to move again (we are in pharma so the hope is that there would be something else there?)

Thoughts??
I think that the situation would be more like your nightmare, ok, maybe not that bad, but no way that idyllic life you fancy. Paris with a good life for Basel? You kidding?
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Old 05.12.2012, 11:35
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Re: How would my life change if I move to CH?

Thanks again for the additional responses. It seems to have taken a bit of a negative turn in the recent posts.

Regarding the 9 weeks - this is not the "norm" but for big companies it is not unusual. 5 weeks is usual most offer 6 weeks then due to the 35 hour work week companies prefer to offer 3 additional weeks because you normally work at least 50 hours a week. This is also one of the reasons the salaries are so much lower in France than UK or CH.

Nobody has mentioned that perhaps it could be better to pay into a swiss retirement scheme than French. Interesting - I would have thought this would come up as an advantage. Right now I pay significant taxes to France and have significant doubts that I will get anything when I retire. I do not know anything about swiss scheme but assume you have more control over what you pay in (like 401Ks in US?) or that people would feel that switzerland is a more stable country.

Also interesting that nobody mentioned that the school system might be better in switzerland. The french system is quite rigorous to say the least.
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Old 05.12.2012, 12:22
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Re: How would my life change if I move to CH?


Hi kab,

First let me tell you that a raise of 30% is quite low. Idon’t know how much to you earn in FR but in CH the salaries are quite high andI would expect an increase of 100% if you remain on a position similar to FR.Maybe you should check that salary proposal very careful.

I have 25 days of vacations but I also receive time-in-lieuwhich means I can take more days if I work more hours. The managers withoutthat have 30 days per year. But that is in my company.

The schooling system is different in each Canton andtherefore you need to consider that if you wish to move, after a while, to adifferent Canton. The kids will have to learn the dialect or will be stuck withthe expat friends. You as well. If you have friends in FR that is a good signyou are integrated. In CH don’t expect to happen he same with Swiss people. Youwill have a lot of friends just not Swiss.

The country closes during Sunday. If you need to go to thesupermarket you need to go to a train station. Not like in Paris where a Sundayis pretty much a normal day in the week. The Swiss have strict rules regardingworking on a Sunday. I felt a huge different when was in Paris on a Sundaybecause all shops were open and pretty much was similar to any Saturday.

Don’t get me wrong, I love to live in Basel and in Switzerlandbut you seem to be pretta well settled already in France.
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