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Old 28.07.2014, 17:35
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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Ah, I didn't even know about that MennoFloyd, but I can tell you it's been incorporated into the Consular Report Directory Part 2.

http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/wp-conte...14.07.04.j.pdf

This may also be more useful as it has peoples' accounts of their renunciations/relinquishments - how they found the process overall, what the consular staff were like when dealing with them, etc, for each individual embassy/consulate. The reports from Switzerland start on page 169 and the summary that you posted starts on page 173.

Thanks for this interesting paper. One question, is the fee ($450) to be paid in Dollars or Swiss Francs?
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  #362  
Old 28.07.2014, 17:54
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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Thanks for this interesting paper. One question, is the fee ($450) to be paid in Dollars or Swiss Francs?
Given that you're dealing with the U.S. government, one would assume USD.
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  #363  
Old 28.07.2014, 19:28
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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Thanks for this interesting paper. One question, is the fee ($450) to be paid in Dollars or Swiss Francs?
It can be either as far as I know, they'll simply convert the Swiss Francs to Dollars. This is what I received as info back in December 2012.

"On July 13, 2010 the Department of State implemented a fee of $450 (dollar bills printed before 2000 not accepted) for administrative processing of formal renunciation of U.S. citizenship. On the day of your appointment you should pay with cash (U.S. dollars or Swiss francs; the equivalent Swiss franc amount is based on an average exchange rate, not the daily rate used by banks and post offices) or a major credit card (except EC/Maestro/Post Card) presenting a valid passport."

I used my Swiss credit card.
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  #364  
Old 28.07.2014, 19:31
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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Thanks for this interesting paper. One question, is the fee ($450) to be paid in Dollars or Swiss Francs?
When I did it in 2009 it was free!

Tom
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  #365  
Old 28.07.2014, 19:48
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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When I did it in 2009 it was free!

Tom
Yeah, you just go ahead and keep rubbing our noses in that.
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  #366  
Old 31.07.2014, 17:30
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Has anybody relinquished instead of renounced for having served in the Swiss army as a commissioned / non-commissioned officer or working for the governement (canton?)? Might save the fee.

As an US citizen by birth, I guess those are the only two options to relinquish.
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Old 31.07.2014, 18:14
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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Has anybody relinquished instead of renounced for having served in the Swiss army as a commissioned / non-commissioned officer or working for the governement (canton?)? Might save the fee.

As an US citizen by birth, I guess those are the only two options to relinquish.
Yes, many people have done it in Canada. You'd need documents proving your military status and/or your employment by the canton, particularly any oaths of alligence you had to swear at the time.

The law is outlined here:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481

You need to contact the embassy in Bern by e-mail asking for the relevant documents for a relinquishment.
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  #368  
Old 02.08.2014, 19:05
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Anyone come across this - and knows what it means for US citizens holding Pillar 3 accounts?

http://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/582356...c-les-usa.html
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Old 02.08.2014, 19:21
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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Anyone come across this - and knows what it means for US citizens holding Pillar 3 accounts?

http://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/582356...c-les-usa.html
Any chance you can provide a rough synopsis in English? My French is not that great.
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  #370  
Old 02.08.2014, 20:01
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

I have to tell you that the RTS article is very poorly written and also rather ambiguous.


Des banques suisses ferment des comptes de 3e pilier à cause du conflit avec les USA

Some Swiss banks are closing third pillar accounts in dispute with the U.S.


Des banques suisses ferment certains comptes de 3e pilier appartenant à des clients ayant des liens avec les USA, a appris la RTS. C'est la conséquence du différend fiscal avec Washington.

As a result of tax dispute with DC, some Swiss banks are closing several accounts of the 3rd pillar of customers with ties to the U.S...


Clients liés de près ou de loin aux USA. Il s'agit de clients doubles-nationaux, d'Américains habitant en Suisse ou de Suisses expatriés aux Etats-Unis.

Customers with close or loose ties with the U.S., double-nationals, Americans living in Switzerland or Swiss expats in the U.S.


Les personnes concernées ont reçu - ou vont recevoir - un courrier de leur banque annonçant notamment la liquidation de leur 3e pilier (comptes d'investissement défiscalisés qui ne sont plus autorisés pour les citoyens américains ou les Suisses détenteurs d'une autorisation de séjour aux USA).

Affected persons have received or will be receiving a letter from their bank announcing them among others the termination of their 3rd Pillar (tax-free investment accounts that are no longer permitted for U.S. citizens or Green Card holders Swiss citizens).
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  #371  
Old 02.08.2014, 20:09
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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Anyone come across this - and knows what it means for US citizens holding Pillar 3 accounts?

http://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/582356...c-les-usa.html
Yes, unfortunately.

Our bank notified all 'US Persons' that the bank could no longer hold accounts in this type of Pillar 3 account. These were in the managed investment funds set up by OH's company.

As I understand it, closing 'US Persons' Pillar 3 had nothing to do with tax compliance issues (we are squeeky clean) and perhaps little to do with the current dispute with the IRS as the article seems to imply. (Bearing in mind that my French is atrocious, so I might have misunderstood that bit.) Rather the issue seems to be that the fund management no longer wanted to deal with sorting out which investment vehicles were forbidden for US citizen; these restrictions do not apply to non-US Person account holders.

So our account was closed. We could not find any other Pillar 3 option in Switzerland - and we looked high and low - so we moved the money back to the US.
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  #372  
Old 08.08.2014, 11:38
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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I went to the US consulate in Frankfurt. The wait there was only a few months in 2012.


An American friend at our office just called the US Embassy this week to arrange an appointment and was granted an interview on the 20th of August.
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Old 08.08.2014, 12:37
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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An American friend at our office just called the US Embassy this week to arrange an appointment and was granted an interview on the 20th of August.
That's good news for them. Could be they've caught up on the backlog or may just be because most people are away on holiday this month. Could be a late cancellation too.
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  #374  
Old 08.08.2014, 13:07
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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Has anybody relinquished instead of renounced for having served in the Swiss army as a commissioned / non-commissioned officer or working for the governement (canton?)? Might save the fee.

As an US citizen by birth, I guess those are the only two options to relinquish.
Last I knew, they changed their policy and were also charging for relinquishing as well as renouncing, so no savings here.

Sorry, but working for the canton likely will not qualify. I think the term is foreign government, and in a policy type position, so if you are a cleaner for the budesrat, forget it.

You have to look at the relinquishing act legislation over time, as it has changed, and in relation to the time the act you think was committed. In the past, taking on a foreign nationalty was one, and that has been used by a lot of Canadians. Read up at ISB on this if you like.
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  #375  
Old 10.08.2014, 11:25
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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Last I knew, they changed their policy and were also charging for relinquishing as well as renouncing, so no savings here.

Sorry, but working for the canton likely will not qualify. I think the term is foreign government, and in a policy type position, so if you are a cleaner for the budesrat, forget it.

You have to look at the relinquishing act legislation over time, as it has changed, and in relation to the time the act you think was committed. In the past, taking on a foreign nationalty was one, and that has been used by a lot of Canadians. Read up at ISB on this if you like.
Thanks for this. It was more of a hypothetical question anyway, as there is no way I would qualify to relinquish. But as they now also seem to charge to relinquish, I guess there is no big difference anymore between the two. At least not for dual citizens at birth, to get out of the exit tax.
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  #376  
Old 10.08.2014, 11:38
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Can somebody explain the difference between relinquish and renounce please?
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Old 10.08.2014, 11:50
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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Can somebody explain the difference between relinquish and renounce please?
Issac Brock Society has a very good explanation of it-- isaacbrocksociety.ca
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  #378  
Old 10.08.2014, 12:34
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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Can somebody explain the difference between relinquish and renounce please?
To relinquish you have to commit an expatriating act, i.e. gain Swiss citizenship with the intention of giving up your American citizenship as Tina Turner did recently. The various ways it can be done are outlined here:

http://travel.state.gov/content/trav...tionality.html

The main thing is that you intended to lose your American citizenship by performing one or more of these acts. Tina Turner could have simply become a dual US/Swiss citizen for example had she wished to keep her American citizenship. But she stated at the time that she intended to give up her American citizenship once she had her Swiss one.

To renounce, you are simply going into the embassy/consulate and telling the staff there that you want to give up your American citizenship. There are no acts you have to perform to do this. If you decide you want to give up your citizenship you have the right under US law do this and simply need to swear the Oath of Renuncation in front of the Consul at the embassy/consulate.

Another example, I was born dual US/UK so there was no way I could commit an expatriating act by serving in the UK military or working for the government because I'm already a citizen of that country. So renouncing was the only way to lose my US citizenship.

There are two advantages to relinquishing if you can. 1) if you relinquish you usually save yourself the $450 fee that's charged for renouncing. 2) If you committed your relinquishing act before June 3rd 2004 then you don't need to do any US tax filing or fill in an 8854 form to declare you're US tax compliant which again could save you quite a bit of money.
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Old 10.08.2014, 12:54
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

No affiliation with this firm. I just found this explanation to be very thorough, and (relatively) easy to understand.

http://hodgen.com/relinquishing-u-s-...-expatriation/

The only bit I dislike is the continued statement of relinquishing to avoid taxes. I get it, the firm gives tax advice. However it seems from posts here and on IBS that most folks who are giving up citizenship didn't so much object to the taxes, but the onerous reporting requirements...and the presumption of guilt/tax dodging on the part of any citizen not physically on U.S. soil.
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  #380  
Old 12.08.2014, 08:29
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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Thanks for the replies!

I've been waiting for 4 months now so was just curious about others.

The wait continues...!
Follow-up: it arrived after 4.5 months.
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