Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience - Page 2

#21 16.02.2013, 00:10

	Quote:	crazygringo
	fair enough, but the messenger is always delivering the same message.

Looks like the pot is calling the kettle black...

crazygringo · #22 16.02.2013, 09:26

	Quote:
	Looks like the pot is calling the kettle black...

I don't have a message or a bias, I am happy here in Switzerland the same way I was happy back in the States, and I am always skeptical of other peoples' nationalism. I think the people who consistently bash the US on the EF are no different than the people who consistently bash Switzerland.

#23 16.02.2013, 10:19

	Quote:	crazygringo
	I don't have a message or a bias, I am happy here in Switzerland the same way I was happy back in the States, and I am always skeptical of other peoples' nationalism. I think the people who consistently bash the US on the EF are no different than the people who consistently bash Switzerland.

Nice fairytale, I don't believe you...but that's neither here nor there.

#24 16.02.2013, 10:47

	Quote:	crazygringo
	I dare you to be bullish on China. in fact, I double dog dare you. and according to 2012 statistics, the US exports exceeded Germany by about 50%, despite having roughly 4 times the domestic market to serve. see how fun it is to play with statistics? I understand the hatred that people feel for the US and its current and recent administrations, but I'm also aware that people have a tendency to let personal experience and personal bias cloud their personal judgment (which you can see with any number of threads about Switzerland on the EF).

"crazygringo" huh?

Maybe I should switch my profile name to "sobergringo"

Already for 6-8 years, we've been hearing a lot of China pessimists double daring a bullish position on China. A lot of these same people have also been double daring a bearish position on the US for the past 4-5 years. Crying "wolf" too many times here aren't we?

US exports bypassed German exports by 50%? You do realize that if this were true US exports would have definitely surpassed US imports and there would have been a total US trade surplus for the first time since the mid-1970s? Surely this would have been the headline of the century. Playing with statistics is one thing. Totally making it up out of the blue after smoking something powerful is another thing.

This US indeed does have a large internal market to serve, but don't forget that imports (and investment from abroad to finance them) play a major role in that (US imports double what Germany imports).

#25 16.02.2013, 10:54

	Quote:
	There is no doubt, IMHO, about which country is best to live in. I feel sorry for those who have no other recourse. I found this video interesting. How does this work?

Rule number 1 about the universe:

Always take anything that comes out of a Kremlin media-outlet with an enormous grain of salt!

#26 16.02.2013, 10:57

	Quote:	black_and_blue
	Anyone who abandons their American citizenship because of the hassle of doing paperwork didn't deserve it in the first place. And anyone who thinks that at the end of the day America isn't going to emerge on the top of the rubble heap is delusional. You're part of OUR empire for good, so deal with it.

Did an IRS agent just persuade you with the following line?

"Join the dark side of the force young Jedi and together we will rule the world!"

Principia Discordia · #27 16.02.2013, 11:09

	Quote:
	Don't shoot the messenger...

Pointing out when someone is incorrect is not "shooting the messenger".

#28 16.02.2013, 11:24

	Quote:	brusch
	Rule number 1 about the universe: Always take anything that comes out of a Kremlin media-outlet with an enormous grain of salt!

The professor is American, and besides, what he is speaking about is common knowledge around the world. Germany recently made an interesting move, I don't know if you are aware of it. If not, look it up.

	Quote:	Principia Discordia
	Pointing out when someone is incorrect is not "shooting the messenger".

Yes it is, especially when one does not know how to aim or shoot!

crazygringo · #29 16.02.2013, 12:31

	Quote:	brusch
	"crazygringo" huh? Maybe I should switch my profile name to "sobergringo" Already for 6-8 years, we've been hearing a lot of China pessimists double daring a bullish position on China. A lot of these same people have also been double daring a bearish position on the US for the past 4-5 years. Crying "wolf" too many times here aren't we? US exports bypassed German exports by 50%? You do realize that if this were true US exports would have definitely surpassed US imports and there would have been a total US trade surplus for the first time since the mid-1970s? Surely this would have been the headline of the century. Playing with statistics is one thing. Totally making it up out of the blue after smoking something powerful is another thing. This US indeed does have a large internal market to serve, but don't forget that imports (and investment from abroad to finance them) play a major role in that (US imports double what Germany imports).

look, I'm ok to be called wrong, and I'm even ok for somebody to do so with a sense of self-righteousness and sarcasm, but you are not in that position. US exports in 2012 hit just north of 2.2 trillion, as against just north of 2.7 trillion in imports, and German exports were right at 1.5 trillion. this is all in US dollars. I trust that if you do the math you will find that 2.2 is right around 50% higher than 1.5, and that the US still carried north of a 500 billion USD trade deficit in 2012.

you can find all this data on the interwebs, which is exactly what I did. and people have been selling Asia since damn near the end of WWII, I still remember when Japan was buying up America and the "banned commercials" were all about the Japanese getting their revenge for the war and taking over America. I'll believe it when I see it, although of course you are perfectly free to invest heavily in Chinese debt and currency, and in fact I hope that you do. if you like, I can find you some Brazil Bonds cheap, too.

crazygringo · #30 16.02.2013, 12:39

	Quote:
	Nice fairytale, I don't believe you...but that's neither here nor there.

bisch so gschiid, i cha dir an d'nase umeführä nöd. I am terribly miserable here in wonderful Switzerland, and pine for my secret bunker back in the States with my 6-month supply of Dinty Moore Beef Stew, Hank Williams records, collection of reality tv show dvd's and my network of remote control drones.

DuePonte · #31 17.02.2013, 14:37

According to the Federal Register, 932 Americans and green cardholders renounced and relinquished their US citizenship and green cards in 2012. A member of IsaacBrockSociety.ca called "Eric", however, has cast doubt on the accuracy of this figure. His review of the FBI’s « National Instant Criminal Background Check System » (NICS) data for 2012 indicated that 4,650 Americans renounced their citizenship in 2012. The FBI figure does not include relinquishers, for which there are thought to be four relinquishers to every five to six renunciants, and also does not include green cardholders who are returning their greencards.

To determine the number of US citizenship renunciants for 2012, please see line 7, „Renounced US Citizenship“ on the two links. The difference between running total of 16,004 at 12/31/2011 and 20,654 at 12/31/2012 is the total of US citizenship renunciants for 2012: 4,650

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nic...nics-index.pdf

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nic...nics-index.pdf

To determine the number of "expatriations" for 2012, which adds up to 932, please see the quarterly figures for 2012 dated :
2/14/2013 (4Q)
11/1/2012 (3Q)
7/27/2012 (2Q)
4/30/2012 (1Q)

https://www.federalregister.gov/quar...-to-expatriate

As some of you may recall, the US Embassy in Berne reported to Swissinfo.ch that 411 US citizens had expatriated in the first nine months of 2012. If the Federal Register figure of 932 is correct, this would mean that around 58.8% ((411x12/9) / 932) of US citizens who expatriated did so in tiny Switzerland in 2012. As it is known that consulates and embassies in Canada, the UK and elsewhere are backlogged with expatriations, the Swiss percentage does not appear realistic:
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_ne...l?cid=33824180

My view is that the Obama administration is uncomfortable with the high number of US citizens who are going over the fence, which I estimate to be 8,000 for 2012 (US citizenship renunciants and relinquishers).

jrspet · #32 17.02.2013, 14:39

Hence why I added it to the tag list when creating the thread.

From their site:

	Quote:
	It has become clear that there are several advantages to relinquishing over renouncing: (1) Relinquishment takes the act of losing your citizenship out of the hands of the US government. This has two benefits. (a) There should be no fee because it doesn’t require a US government official–it doesn’t take place in a US Consulate–you only go to the consulate to inform them of a fait accompli, and it only takes one visit, unlike renunciation which usually take two visits. (b) This saves you $450, or it should, because you are not requiring the services of the Consulate–you are there only to inform them of your intention when you committed a potentially expatriating act such as making a pledge to a foreign power. (2) Relinquishment is usually a positive act which cannot be confused with an expatriation to avoid taxes. You do it so that you can take part in foreign government or to vote in the country you live in, not so that you can avoid US taxes. (3) Relinquishment is not a renunciation of your citizenship, so much as a positive act vis-a-vis your new home and country. It is not a repudiation of your country but an acknowledgement that dual citizenship is an unworkable absurdity. Thus, relinquishment comes with less stigma, potentially. Finally, a caveat is in order. Don’t do one thing and say another. That is don’t relinquish your citizenship then travel on US passport, pay tax in the US, register your children born abroad as US citizens, or take up a residence or a job in the USA, except as one holding a legitimate permit to reside or work in the US as an alien. If a person does any of these things, the State Department may not accept your relinquishment. Those who desire to lose their citizenship but who have done such things after the relinquishing act, may need to renounce their citizenship after all. So without further ado, here is my original post, “Renunciation of US citizenship: On avoiding the new $450 renunciation fee (update 2), which explains in greater detail, what would constitute a relinquishing act: ....

gata · #33 17.02.2013, 15:12

So since long words are not my strong point today.

Relinquish: Give up your passport but keep your citizenship (why would you want to do that? Are you even allowed?)

Renounce: Give up passport and citizenship. (Well if you give up your citizenship i dont think they will let you keep your passport anw)

Case 1 you still pay taxes. Case 2 you dont.

Right?

Medea Fleecestealer · #34 17.02.2013, 16:39

	Quote:	gata
	So since long words are not my strong point today. Relinquish: Give up your passport but keep your citizenship (why would you want to do that? Are you even allowed?) Renounce: Give up passport and citizenship. (Well if you give up your citizenship i dont think they will let you keep your passport anw) Case 1 you still pay taxes. Case 2 you dont. Right?

Wrong.

Relinquishment is giving up both passport and citizenship, the same as renounciation. It's how you do it that is different. And you won't continue to pay taxes either.

gata · #35 17.02.2013, 16:47

	Quote:	Medea Fleecestealer
	Wrong. Relinquishment is giving up both passport and citizenship, the same as renounciation. It's how you do it that is different. And you won't continue to pay taxes either.

Thanks

Two different ways to do the same thing. Who thought life was simple?

rainer_d · #36 17.02.2013, 16:50

	Quote:	crazygringo
	I dare you to be bullish on China. in fact, I double dog dare you. and according to 2012 statistics, the US exports exceeded Germany by about 50%,

CIA says:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...=eur&rank=4#gm

which puts US 120 billion ahead of Germany and is a reversal of the 2011 ranking:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ies_by_exports

Hardly 50%.

Medea Fleecestealer · #37 17.02.2013, 17:13

	Quote:	gata
	Thanks Two different ways to do the same thing. Who thought life was simple?

Relinquishment will save you $450 so definitely worth doing if you can. Unfortunately, not possible for me so I'm renouncing on the 4th March instead.

gata · #38 17.02.2013, 17:16

If you can be bothered, can you explain why some people can relinquish and some cant? I read the links but still...

Medea Fleecestealer · #39 17.02.2013, 17:53

Okay, I'll try using the Canadian/American example I've come across on the Isaac Brock Society website.

Many years ago, both American and Canadian law was that if an American took Canadian citizenship, then the American citizenship was automatically lost. So if an American took Canadian citizenship before 1995 the old law applies (1995 onwards is when the laws on dual citizenship started to change). They took an oath to Canada, knowing they'd lose American citizenship by doing so. This makes it a voluntary act with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality.

The IBS site has many examples of ex-Americans who became Canadians many years ago who are now applying for a Certificate of Loss of Nationality from the US by proving that they relinquished because they understood that they'd lose the American citizenship by becoming Canadian citizens.

I, however, am American/British - born in the US of English parents so I had both nationalities from birth. Relinquishment is not an option for me because I haven't undergone the British citizenship process. So renunciation is the only route for me to take to give up my American citizenship.

crazygringo · #40 17.02.2013, 23:24

	Quote:	rainer_d
	CIA says: https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...=eur&rank=4#gm which puts US 120 billion ahead of Germany and is a reversal of the 2011 ranking: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ies_by_exports Hardly 50%.

the CIA numbers are solely for FOB merchandise exports, not total goods and services exports.