Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #421  
Old 02.09.2014, 14:02
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: la cote
Posts: 3,461
Groaned at 21 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 3,068 Times in 1,626 Posts
runningdeer has a reputation beyond reputerunningdeer has a reputation beyond reputerunningdeer has a reputation beyond reputerunningdeer has a reputation beyond reputerunningdeer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Why would you want to do such a thing? Either you renounce/relinquish or remain a US citizen, decide what you want.

That being said, I recall reading a number of stories on people who later re-acquired US citizenship, mostly through the normal channels. Not sure why you are trying to propose some bizarre scheme here.



Quote:
View Post
Hello all, first time poster here.

I have a question about re-acquiring U.S. citizenship should one renounce or relinquish. I know officially it is virtually impossible in most cases, but would it in theory be possible to "game the system"?

Here is my thought: If you have a Swiss (or EU) Passport you are not required to have a visa to enter the United States. However if your U.S. citizenship is based on birth in the United States, you still have a U.S. birth certificate. As you can still collect Social Security your social security number should still be valid. With a birth certificate and a social security card you can now apply for a drivers license. With those three things you could open a bank account, apply for a job and purchase or rent a house. In essence you are starting your life all over again in the United States with your still legal and valid U.S. birth certificate and social security number. Since the United States does not have exit controls, if you wish to travel internationally, just do so on your Swiss Passport. As many undocumented, illegal aliens are living and working in the United States and never get deported, imagine how hard it would be to for them to discover you and figure out you are not a United States citizen when you can produce a valid and legal U.S. birth certificate. In the event of relinquishment, in theory such actions could demonstrate that despite your pronouncements on the forms you filled out, you never really did intend to give up your citizenship.

Anyway, what do you all think? If a few years down the road a person decided they regretted giving up citizenship, could this be a back door way to get back to the United States, re-establish your life, and for all intents and purposes become "U.S. citizen" again?
Reply With Quote
  #422  
Old 02.09.2014, 14:43
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 31,620
Groaned at 2,350 Times in 1,709 Posts
Thanked 38,425 Times in 18,133 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Quote:
View Post
Hello all, first time poster here.

I have a question about re-acquiring U.S. citizenship should one renounce or relinquish. I know officially it is virtually impossible in most cases, but would it in theory be possible to "game the system"?

Here is my thought: If you have a Swiss (or EU) Passport you are not required to have a visa to enter the United States. However if your U.S. citizenship is based on birth in the United States, you still have a U.S. birth certificate. As you can still collect Social Security your social security number should still be valid. With a birth certificate and a social security card you can now apply for a drivers license. With those three things you could open a bank account, apply for a job and purchase or rent a house. In essence you are starting your life all over again in the United States with your still legal and valid U.S. birth certificate and social security number. Since the United States does not have exit controls, if you wish to travel internationally, just do so on your Swiss Passport. As many undocumented, illegal aliens are living and working in the United States and never get deported, imagine how hard it would be to for them to discover you and figure out you are not a United States citizen when you can produce a valid and legal U.S. birth certificate. In the event of relinquishment, in theory such actions could demonstrate that despite your pronouncements on the forms you filled out, you never really did intend to give up your citizenship.

Anyway, what do you all think? If a few years down the road a person decided they regretted giving up citizenship, could this be a back door way to get back to the United States, re-establish your life, and for all intents and purposes become "U.S. citizen" again?
Absurd idea.

When the IRS, who have been informed of your expatriation, start getting payments and forms with your SS number, alarm bells will ring.

Tom
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #423  
Old 02.09.2014, 15:05
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 22,161
Groaned at 409 Times in 317 Posts
Thanked 17,137 Times in 9,642 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Quote:
View Post
Hello all, first time poster here.

I have a question about re-acquiring U.S. citizenship should one renounce or relinquish. I know officially it is virtually impossible in most cases, but would it in theory be possible to "game the system"?

Here is my thought: If you have a Swiss (or EU) Passport you are not required to have a visa to enter the United States. However if your U.S. citizenship is based on birth in the United States, you still have a U.S. birth certificate. As you can still collect Social Security your social security number should still be valid. With a birth certificate and a social security card you can now apply for a drivers license. With those three things you could open a bank account, apply for a job and purchase or rent a house. In essence you are starting your life all over again in the United States with your still legal and valid U.S. birth certificate and social security number. Since the United States does not have exit controls, if you wish to travel internationally, just do so on your Swiss Passport. As many undocumented, illegal aliens are living and working in the United States and never get deported, imagine how hard it would be to for them to discover you and figure out you are not a United States citizen when you can produce a valid and legal U.S. birth certificate. In the event of relinquishment, in theory such actions could demonstrate that despite your pronouncements on the forms you filled out, you never really did intend to give up your citizenship.

Anyway, what do you all think? If a few years down the road a person decided they regretted giving up citizenship, could this be a back door way to get back to the United States, re-establish your life, and for all intents and purposes become "U.S. citizen" again?
No, because both the State Department and the IRS will have a note of both your SSN and your CLN so will know immediately you start earning money or showing a US address. Also, even a Swiss national may find his bank insists on him closing his accounts here if he moves to the US.

As runningdeer says, why would you want to? If you have doubts don't do it in the first place.

I'll add another thing for you to consider. IF you did such a thing and somehow got your US citizenship back because of it, unlikely as that may be, you would have many years of back taxes to file, not to mention all the penalties non-filing would incur precisely because you have shown you didn't intend to renounce in the first place. And if you were caught and didn't get your citizenship back, you'd find yourself being deported if not jailed for being an illegal immigrant.

Also bear in mind that there are some Congress people who are still working to get the Reed Amendment operational. If you expatriated for tax purposes - which is what the 8854 instructions state by the way if you are not subject to tax under section 877 - then you would be barred from ever entering the States again, no matter what passport you hold.
Reply With Quote
  #424  
Old 04.09.2014, 11:36
MennoFloyd's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Deutschschweiz
Posts: 292
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 420 Times in 193 Posts
MennoFloyd has become a little unpopularMennoFloyd has become a little unpopular
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

An American college professor in Hong Kong wrote a short article "Is America trying to stop Americans from working abroad?", posted on LinkedIn. The bank account problems for US citizens, which started in Switzerland in 2012, now appear to be occurring worldwide, thanks to Fatca:

"The results have been immediate: overseas banks don't want to open accounts for American citizens. Imagine going overseas to work, except you can't have a bank account. This is a very real thing. In Hong Kong, I've had several friends try to open accounts in different banks. The non-Americans, no problem. The Americans can't, for various flimsy excuses (no banks want to institute a written "no Americans" policy, of course)."

https://www.linkedin.com/today/post/...working-abroad
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank MennoFloyd for this useful post:
  #425  
Old 05.09.2014, 11:05
MennoFloyd's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Deutschschweiz
Posts: 292
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 420 Times in 193 Posts
MennoFloyd has become a little unpopularMennoFloyd has become a little unpopular
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Today's "Die Welt" has an article called "Thousands of US citizens want to return their passports". Two highlights:
1) There are 107,000 US citizens living in Germany.
2) The automated email response for renunciation appointments from the US embassy in Berlin says: "Please note that we have at this time a very high number of e-mails. We will respond in the coming days."

The message is clear: Get away from the bully out as quickly as you can.

http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/articl...ueckgeben.html
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank MennoFloyd for this useful post:
  #426  
Old 08.09.2014, 18:05
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 22,161
Groaned at 409 Times in 317 Posts
Thanked 17,137 Times in 9,642 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Good article by the New American on the Republican GOP backing for repealing FATCA and instituting a resident based tax system which I saw on Isaac Brock.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews...ericans-abroad
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Medea Fleecestealer for this useful post:
  #427  
Old 08.09.2014, 18:35
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Morat
Posts: 18
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 15 Times in 5 Posts
ssn650 has no particular reputation at present
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Is there hope or should we relinquish / renounce as soon as possible? Now that the fee for renunciations has increased 5-fold this has become a valid question to those yet undecided.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ssn650 for this useful post:
  #428  
Old 08.09.2014, 18:40
3Wishes's Avatar
Moderately Amused
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bern area
Posts: 11,143
Groaned at 87 Times in 83 Posts
Thanked 18,854 Times in 8,395 Posts
3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Quote:
View Post
Is there hope or should we relinquish / renounce as soon as possible? Now that the fee for renunciations has increased 5-fold this has become a valid question to those yet undecided.
Since it has already taken effect, I don't see how the fee change makes much of a difference, TBH. Either you have another citizenship you can use and want to be done with the U.S....or not.

I suppose they could always raise the fee more in the future, but given how many folks are renouncing I don't think this bump is going to change the numbers much. Probably just another way for the U.S. to claim how much money it is making from all the tax cheats.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank 3Wishes for this useful post:
  #429  
Old 08.09.2014, 19:12
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 22,161
Groaned at 409 Times in 317 Posts
Thanked 17,137 Times in 9,642 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Quote:
View Post
Is there hope or should we relinquish / renounce as soon as possible? Now that the fee for renunciations has increased 5-fold this has become a valid question to those yet undecided.
Depends on whether you believe the Republicans will follow through and how quickly they would ever get around to changing the tax system. Even if RBT becomes part of their manifesto, they've got to design a new system of taxation and that could be years down the line before it ever gets implemented.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Medea Fleecestealer for this useful post:
  #430  
Old 20.11.2014, 18:16
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. ZŁrich
Posts: 10,623
Groaned at 476 Times in 408 Posts
Thanked 19,447 Times in 10,267 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Seems Boris Johnson, mayor of London, has a US passport and is having problems with US taxes.
He said about the US passport ďItís very difficult to give up.Ē".
Look here.
Reply With Quote
  #431  
Old 03.12.2014, 17:32
Verbier's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Lully VD
Posts: 4,328
Groaned at 16 Times in 16 Posts
Thanked 4,532 Times in 2,306 Posts
Verbier has a reputation beyond reputeVerbier has a reputation beyond reputeVerbier has a reputation beyond reputeVerbier has a reputation beyond reputeVerbier has a reputation beyond reputeVerbier has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

An article from Casey Research on Jim Bopp (lawyer) and Senator Mike Lee making their FACTA tour.

http://www.caseyresearch.com/article...-fatca-on-tour
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Verbier for this useful post:
  #432  
Old 04.12.2014, 12:46
MennoFloyd's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Deutschschweiz
Posts: 292
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 420 Times in 193 Posts
MennoFloyd has become a little unpopularMennoFloyd has become a little unpopular
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

There's a new anti-FATCA video on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4rhFYGpvtY
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank MennoFloyd for this useful post:
  #433  
Old 19.12.2014, 09:51
MennoFloyd's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Deutschschweiz
Posts: 292
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 420 Times in 193 Posts
MennoFloyd has become a little unpopularMennoFloyd has become a little unpopular
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

A recent Wall Street Journal article on the misery of being a US citizen abroad:

"U.S. Expats Find Hope in Senate Finance Tax Reform Proposal"

http://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-272B-182

Also, see the poll at the bottom of the article: "Do you think the U.S. needs to rethink its taxation rules for nonresident U.S. citizens?"
Reply With Quote
  #434  
Old 03.01.2015, 12:01
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 22,161
Groaned at 409 Times in 317 Posts
Thanked 17,137 Times in 9,642 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Another accidental American is born.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-l...shire-30655678

Anyone on Facebook want to let them know what's coming their way in the future.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Medea Fleecestealer for this useful post:
  #435  
Old 22.01.2015, 20:26
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 22,161
Groaned at 409 Times in 317 Posts
Thanked 17,137 Times in 9,642 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

I see Boris Johnson has paid up.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-30932891

The Financial Times reports, on the size of the tax bill, that the mayor's "allies say it is nowhere near the £100,000 estimated by some tax experts".

No - it was a hell of a lot more.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Medea Fleecestealer for this useful post:
  #436  
Old 23.01.2015, 00:23
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3,628
Groaned at 70 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 3,798 Times in 2,056 Posts
rainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Quote:
View Post
I see Boris Johnson has paid up.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-30932891

The Financial Times reports, on the size of the tax bill, that the mayor's "allies say it is nowhere near the £100,000 estimated by some tax experts".

No - it was a hell of a lot more.
Lame.
I had thought he wouldn't pay it.
So much for principles.
Will the US embassy now pay the congestion-charge for their vehicles?
Reply With Quote
  #437  
Old 23.01.2015, 07:14
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 22,161
Groaned at 409 Times in 317 Posts
Thanked 17,137 Times in 9,642 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Quote:
View Post
Lame.
I had thought he wouldn't pay it.
So much for principles.
Will the US embassy now pay the congestion-charge for their vehicles?
Well, we already knew he didn't have those, given that he said he'd renounce way back in 2006 and didn't follow through.

Pay the congestion charge - of course not.
Reply With Quote
  #438  
Old 27.01.2015, 07:21
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 22,161
Groaned at 409 Times in 317 Posts
Thanked 17,137 Times in 9,642 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Now the Canadian banks are starting to go crazy with what they ask for. Picked this up from a post on IBS.

"Iím on a board of directors for a non-profit corporation (condominium corporation). We are a Canadian corporation, Canadian-owned, and can only invest in GICís that are CDIC-covered. Our investment institution (our bank Ė as well as all other Canadian Banks as I am lead to understand) is requiring us to fill out form W-8BEN-E, which seems to make no sense whatsoever since it is impossible for us to have exposure to US withholding tax. On top of that, it appears (although the full requirements too confusing for me to understand on 1st reading) that I need to list condo owners who may fit one or more of the following requirements: US citizens, have substantial US holdings, spend a significant amount of time in the US, have substantial US dealings through their corporations, etc. In my position, I donít believe that I can gather that information.

I donít want to be part of this witch-hunt; but if I donít cooperate we wonít be able to invest our money anywhere to maintain itís value for the corporation.

Under Canadian Law, does the status of my condo corp exempt us from filling out this form (regardless of what the Banks may want)?"
Reply With Quote
  #439  
Old 30.01.2015, 20:20
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 22,161
Groaned at 409 Times in 317 Posts
Thanked 17,137 Times in 9,642 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Interesting article on how Swiss banks are stuck waiting on the DoJ to get its act together.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/banks-fa...tern-/41220984

I wonder if eventually all the banks will pull out of the agreement, figuring the penalty cost will be cheaper than being left dangling forever.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Medea Fleecestealer for this useful post:
  #440  
Old 30.01.2015, 20:51
3Wishes's Avatar
Moderately Amused
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bern area
Posts: 11,143
Groaned at 87 Times in 83 Posts
Thanked 18,854 Times in 8,395 Posts
3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Quote:
View Post
...I wonder if eventually all the banks will pull out of the agreement, figuring the penalty cost will be cheaper than being left dangling forever.
I begin to think they should. As the Swiss lawyer in the article says, it was badly negotiated from the Swiss side. AFAIK, it's still the burden of the U.S. government to prove the banks deliberately broke the law. That's the whole idea of innocent until proven guilty, no? It seems to me like the Swiss banks rolled over WAY too easily and have overreacted/made dumb decisions about current and future customers.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
citizenship, cln, fatca, irs, passport, relinquish, renounce, renunciation, tax




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Reaching the point of giving up desperate Employment 156 26.02.2012 15:37
How does one become a Member of a (Social) Group? archmemory Forum support 13 09.12.2011 16:46
Californians in CH - proper way of giving up residency in CA? zufimufi Finance/banking/taxation 10 25.03.2010 05:45
EU to ruin beef because of the French cyrus International affairs/politics 0 17.04.2008 10:20


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 21:03.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0