Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 21.02.2013, 12:05
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 25,837
Groaned at 1,611 Times in 1,239 Posts
Thanked 29,957 Times in 14,306 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Quote:
View Post
Does renouncing your citizenship entail any extra "revenge" checks if you go to US on holiday or business, or would you be treated like any other Swiss citizen (assuming you aquired Swiss citizenship)?
Not that I've noticed, if anything I got through quicker, as I can speak English and my wife not.

Tom
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #62  
Old 21.02.2013, 12:07
Jumping Captain's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: CH
Posts: 1,123
Groaned at 76 Times in 59 Posts
Thanked 1,048 Times in 536 Posts
Jumping Captain has a reputation beyond reputeJumping Captain has a reputation beyond reputeJumping Captain has a reputation beyond reputeJumping Captain has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Quote:
View Post
I have yet to see that in any official document.

Tom
Quote:
G. IRREVOCABILITY OF RENUNCIATION
Finally, those contemplating a renunciation of U.S. citizenship should understand that the act is irrevocable, except as provided in section 351 of the INA (8 U.S.C. 1483), and cannot be canceled or set aside absent successful administrative or judicial appeal.
Taken from here.
JC
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 21.02.2013, 12:22
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 25,837
Groaned at 1,611 Times in 1,239 Posts
Thanked 29,957 Times in 14,306 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

That just says that it cannot be undone (i.e you cannot say "ooops, sorry, I've changed my mind), NOT that you cannot apply for citizenship like any other foreigner!

Tom
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #64  
Old 21.02.2013, 12:28
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Aargau
Posts: 111
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 143 Times in 51 Posts
Dual US/Swiss Citizen has made some interesting contributions
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Renunciation & ESTA???

I have a general question. I know of a colleague who tried to get the US visa online with a Swiss passport but it was rejected because of the US birthplace. I think this person in the end went to get the US passport renewed. Also I know in general that dual citizens are only supposed to enter with a US passport.

Does anyone else have experience on whether a renunciant has any difficulty getting a US visa online in this ESTA system?
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 21.02.2013, 13:04
Freebooter's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Baden-ish
Posts: 178
Groaned at 8 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 154 Times in 75 Posts
Freebooter has an excellent reputationFreebooter has an excellent reputationFreebooter has an excellent reputationFreebooter has an excellent reputation
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Quote:
View Post
although these sorts of US-bashing threads always brighten my day, I thought I might point out the following:

1. FATCA is nothing more than a disclosure obligation, targeted solely at compelling foreign banks to disclose to the IRS the foreign-held assets of US citizens. the only banks this will impact will be those banks who choose to do business in the US, which here means really only UBS and CS.

2. the US doesn't "borrow" any money from the Chinese, it simply issues US treasuries and the Chinese are big buyers of those treasuries because they are the safest investment available. fyi, the interest rates on those treasuries are ridiculously low - this doesn't mean I would not be a fan of the fed shutting down treasuries issuances for a while, but it ain't like those treasuries are what is choking off the US economy.


re: 1, merely a 'disclosure obligation?' could be understatement of the century (so far).
I'm reliably informed that eg, Raiffeisen, must carry out due diligence on 1m accounts to be reasonably confident of being in compliance.
any idea of the resources (ie, manpower) required?
and the way Fatca works, 'permanent establishments' must comply at operating country level, parent/head office certification isn't acceptable.
Take Allianz; one non-compliant entity, in any jurisdiction, means that the entire Allianz group becomes non-fatca compliant.
30% (or is it 35%) withholding tax then applies immediately to ALL remittances (of any kind - dividends, proceeds to client accounts, whatever) from the USA.
re: remittances, Pimco are part of Allianz; so 'go figure,' as they like to say.

certifcation by national Fatca entities in individual countries (bilateral agreements) is an option.
so far, an agreement has only been signed with the UK.
apparently an agreement in principle has been reached with CH.
Legislation to create das BAT (Bundesamt für Fatca) is being prepared for
presentation to parliament, and the inevitable referendum(s), as we speak.

Fatca is a short-sighted diktat that will one day bite the American fiscal authorities where it hurts.
It's unlikely that, in the long term, they'll be able to treat the international business & financial community
with the disdain shown their own expatriate citizens

re: 2, if it quacks it's (almost) certainly a duck. The holders are creditors.
China's motiviation for having its entities buy Treasuries isn't only (or even primarily) risk averseness.
There's the small matter of financing China's trade surplus with the USA.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 21.02.2013, 13:08
Jumping Captain's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: CH
Posts: 1,123
Groaned at 76 Times in 59 Posts
Thanked 1,048 Times in 536 Posts
Jumping Captain has a reputation beyond reputeJumping Captain has a reputation beyond reputeJumping Captain has a reputation beyond reputeJumping Captain has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Quote:
View Post
That just says that it cannot be undone (i.e you cannot say "ooops, sorry, I've changed my mind), NOT that you cannot apply for citizenship like any other foreigner!

Tom
Another:
Quote:
If the certificate of loss of nationality is approved by the U.S. Department of State, the individual's name will be entered in the Department's name check system and they will be ineligible for U.S. passports in the future.
Travel.State.Gov website... here.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 21.02.2013, 13:28
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Misery, but not the SoT one
Posts: 20,008
Groaned at 349 Times in 264 Posts
Thanked 14,564 Times in 8,366 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

I think having renounced/relinquished, you'd find it VERY difficult to apply for US citizenship again, let alone get your application accepted. The green card is different, but again may also be quite difficult to get.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 21.02.2013, 13:31
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Misery, but not the SoT one
Posts: 20,008
Groaned at 349 Times in 264 Posts
Thanked 14,564 Times in 8,366 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Quote:
View Post
Renunciation & ESTA???

I have a general question. I know of a colleague who tried to get the US visa online with a Swiss passport but it was rejected because of the US birthplace. I think this person in the end went to get the US passport renewed. Also I know in general that dual citizens are only supposed to enter with a US passport.

Does anyone else have experience on whether a renunciant has any difficulty getting a US visa online in this ESTA system?
Well, obviously your friend has. If you have an American birthplace, then I don't think you'd be able to apply via the ESTA system as it will automatically assume you do/should have a US passport. You'd probably have to do it either by post or with a visit to your nearest embassy/consulate.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 21.02.2013, 15:48
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 25,837
Groaned at 1,611 Times in 1,239 Posts
Thanked 29,957 Times in 14,306 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Quote:
View Post
If you have an American birthplace, then I don't think you'd be able to apply via the ESTA system as it will automatically assume you do/should have a US passport.
I had no such problem last summer.

Tom
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #70  
Old 21.02.2013, 15:54
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 25,837
Groaned at 1,611 Times in 1,239 Posts
Thanked 29,957 Times in 14,306 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Quote:
View Post
If the certificate of loss of nationality is approved by the U.S. Department of State, the individual's name will be entered in the Department's name check system and they will be ineligible for U.S. passports in the future.
That's talking about a passport, which is clear as they are no longer US citizens.

It says nothing about not being allowed to apply for/obtain US citizenship.

Tom
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #71  
Old 21.02.2013, 16:11
Jumping Captain's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: CH
Posts: 1,123
Groaned at 76 Times in 59 Posts
Thanked 1,048 Times in 536 Posts
Jumping Captain has a reputation beyond reputeJumping Captain has a reputation beyond reputeJumping Captain has a reputation beyond reputeJumping Captain has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Quote:
View Post
That's talking about a passport, which is clear as they are no longer US citizens.

It says nothing about not being allowed to apply for/obtain US citizenship.

Tom
My guess Tom, without opening another Google window and searching, is they mean passport = citizenship. You can not have one without the other. Their point is, once you give it up... it is gone.

If anyone is seriously considering and that is the only hang up... like PD, then I suggest contacting the US citizen services at the following:

BernRenunciations@state.gov

Source

Please let us know what they say.
JC

PS: This is the e-mail you send your request for paperwork and appointment to.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 21.02.2013, 16:24
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 25,837
Groaned at 1,611 Times in 1,239 Posts
Thanked 29,957 Times in 14,306 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Quote:
View Post
My guess Tom, without opening another Google window and searching, is they mean passport = citizenship. You can not have one without the other.
No, they are talking about passports, not citizenship:

"Moreover, a person in possession of a U.S. passport will be asked to submit that passport to the U.S. consular officer for cancellation. If the certificate of loss of nationality is approved by the U.S. Department of State, the individual's name will be entered in the Department's name check system and they will be ineligible for U.S. passports in the future."

Passport does not equal citizenship, a passport is document. Plenty of US citizens do not have US passports. Even plenty of Swiss citizens do not have Swiss passports.

Tom
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #73  
Old 21.02.2013, 16:26
Corbets's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: DK - previously Zug
Posts: 3,307
Groaned at 168 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 6,632 Times in 2,218 Posts
Corbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Quote:
View Post
so far, an agreement has only been signed with the UK.
apparently an agreement in principle has been reached with CH..
Sadly, that's not true.

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-cen...ges/FATCA.aspx
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 21.02.2013, 16:33
Jumping Captain's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: CH
Posts: 1,123
Groaned at 76 Times in 59 Posts
Thanked 1,048 Times in 536 Posts
Jumping Captain has a reputation beyond reputeJumping Captain has a reputation beyond reputeJumping Captain has a reputation beyond reputeJumping Captain has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Quote:
View Post
No, they are talking about passports, not citizenship:

"Moreover, a person in possession of a U.S. passport will be asked to submit that passport to the U.S. consular officer for cancellation. If the certificate of loss of nationality is approved by the U.S. Department of State, the individual's name will be entered in the Department's name check system and they will be ineligible for U.S. passports in the future."

Passport does not equal citizenship, a passport is document. Plenty of US citizens do not have US passports. Even plenty of Swiss citizens do not have Swiss passports.

Tom
This is true Tom. I will search again...
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 21.02.2013, 17:13
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: suburbs of LA, USA
Posts: 934
Groaned at 11 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 873 Times in 439 Posts
BrianJW has a reputation beyond reputeBrianJW has a reputation beyond reputeBrianJW has a reputation beyond reputeBrianJW has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Quote:
View Post
This is true Tom. I will search again...
Isn`t the certificate of loss of nationality referred to basically saying once you have revoked your citizenship you can no longer get a passport?

That`s how I read it.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 21.02.2013, 17:20
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Misery, but not the SoT one
Posts: 20,008
Groaned at 349 Times in 264 Posts
Thanked 14,564 Times in 8,366 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Quote:
View Post
No, they are talking about passports, not citizenship:

"Moreover, a person in possession of a U.S. passport will be asked to submit that passport to the U.S. consular officer for cancellation. If the certificate of loss of nationality is approved by the U.S. Department of State, the individual's name will be entered in the Department's name check system and they will be ineligible for U.S. passports in the future."

Passport does not equal citizenship, a passport is document. Plenty of US citizens do not have US passports. Even plenty of Swiss citizens do not have Swiss passports.

Tom
Seriously, given how touchy/irate some government people are getting over others giving up their citizenship, do you really think they are going to let you have it back? Besides, hopefully you've thought long and hard about this decision before taking the final step to renounce/relinquish. Why on earth would you want to try and get it back again?

Renunciation/relinquishment is irrevocable, unless you appeal your case. Once it's done, the passport issue is irrelevant. Only if your appeal succeeds (does anyone know if it's even been tried?) could you get a US passport again.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 21.02.2013, 17:42
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 25,837
Groaned at 1,611 Times in 1,239 Posts
Thanked 29,957 Times in 14,306 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Quote:
View Post
Isn`t the certificate of loss of nationality referred to basically saying once you have revoked your citizenship you can no longer get a passport?
The CLN proves that you are not longer a US citizen.

Obviously, if you are no longer a US citizen, you are no longer eligible to have/receive a US passport.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 21.02.2013, 17:50
brusch's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Canton de Vaud
Posts: 440
Groaned at 19 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 392 Times in 193 Posts
brusch is considered knowledgeablebrusch is considered knowledgeablebrusch is considered knowledgeable
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Quote:
View Post
I think having renounced/relinquished, you'd find it VERY difficult to apply for US citizenship again, let alone get your application accepted. The green card is different, but again may also be quite difficult to get.
This is a very interesting question. Part 10 (A), Question 1 of Form N-400 (Application for Naturalization) asks whether you have ever claimed to be a US citizen in writing or any other form. If yes, a detailed explanation is required. A yes answer to these questions is usually considered derogatory (questions in this same section ask if you ever failed to file US taxes, if you are a terrorist, if you have ever been confined to a mental institution, if you ever joined the communist party or if you were an NSDAP member between 1933-1945).

My guess is that if you renounce/relinquish, you would be at a disadvantage when applying unless you have a very compelling argument.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 21.02.2013, 17:52
Jumping Captain's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: CH
Posts: 1,123
Groaned at 76 Times in 59 Posts
Thanked 1,048 Times in 536 Posts
Jumping Captain has a reputation beyond reputeJumping Captain has a reputation beyond reputeJumping Captain has a reputation beyond reputeJumping Captain has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

I think Tom mentioned he already gave his up... or was it someone else?

There was an appeal by a renounced US citizen that realized he had made a rash decision and wished to undo his renunciation:
PDF from www.law.fsu.edu here

Apparently, in 1980, there was a one year grace period in which to appeal. Times have changed... methinks, with the wave of renunciations, the State Department would have done away with this a long time ago

On the lighter side... Once renounced, you can take a number along with the millions of people that would give their right arm to have a green card let alone the naturalization/citizenship.

To put the icing on the cake...
This just in from US Citizen Services in Bern:
Quote:
You will not be able to get your citizenship back, and will not be able to obtain a US passport in the future. Only the (slim) chance is if you can prove that you did not act out of your free will, or that you were mentally incapacitated, when the oath was taken, but, since a Consul interviewed you and asked you if you understand the gravity of the act, and this very Consul actually made a judgement of your capability, it would hardly get granted.
After renunciation of your citizenship you will be treated, from the US point of view, as an alien with all the rights an alien has. As such you may apply for any kind of visa you wish, also for an immigrant visa. However, if you get the immigrant visa and, subsequently, the green card, you will not be able to naturalize after a certain time of residence in the US.
JC
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Jumping Captain for this useful post:
  #80  
Old 21.02.2013, 17:53
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 11,052
Groaned at 277 Times in 235 Posts
Thanked 20,554 Times in 7,482 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

1. Statistics...
Quote:
View Post
and according to 2012 statistics, the US exports exceeded Germany by about 50%, despite having roughly 4 times the domestic market to serve. see how fun it is to play with statistics?
That statement does not make any sense. Germany has "only" 80M people, so the exports per capita are much higher. blaming that on the smaller German market does not make any sense at all - the domestic market is of course in line with the population, nothing else. The actual reason is simple: The entire US economy is targeted at the domestic market and the third sector, services, is a multiple larger than in Germany. Germany on the other hand is a very export oriented economy. Simply put: Dodge builds cars for Americans, VW for the world.

2. Fatca
I have mentioned it before - I am working for a US company and I will avoid at all costs to get any statuory rights over our bank accounts. This would make me just as poisonous for banks as if I had a US passport since the IRS from then on would want to see all my data to make sure that the business is paying its taxes. A simple example, but this means that the new legislation does not just harm Americans abroad but a far wider circle. It affects business not only with the US but also with US companies and their employees regardless of nationality on a global scale.
How on earth could the US government be so daft? See point one: The government has it's focus where the economy is, the domestic market.

Last edited by Treverus; 22.02.2013 at 02:21.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
citizenship, cln, fatca, irs, passport, relinquish, renounce, renunciation, tax




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Reaching the point of giving up desperate Employment 156 26.02.2012 16:37
How does one become a Member of a (Social) Group? archmemory Forum support 13 09.12.2011 17:46
Californians in CH - proper way of giving up residency in CA? zufimufi Finance/banking/taxation 11 25.03.2010 06:45
EU to ruin beef because of the French cyrus International affairs/politics 0 17.04.2008 11:20


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:04.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0