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  #141  
Old 19.05.2013, 10:50
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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Yet, when I learned that all of my banks rejected US clients and that the US government was unwilling to help, I found such to be unacceptable and renounced. Based upon your argument, I should have renounced 20 years ago, yet it was only last year that this became an issue.
those banks are rejecting US clients because they do not want to be forced to comply with US disclosure obligations, what is the US government supposed to do?



look, I think the US policy of taxing US citizens living abroad is stupid, too, but that stupidity hasn't changed in a long time. all the US is doing now is enforcing that stupidity.
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  #142  
Old 19.05.2013, 10:51
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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I was hoping to read some common sense in your posts on this subject, but ... well.... the best you came up with was calling us "Idiots"
Sorry if I sounded offensive, but the generalizations and stereotypes frequently being expressed do often tempt me to express my feelings more freely. I argue that the notion of it being only all about the taxes as being idiotic. I'm not saying that people who recognize that there are more issues involved than just taxes are being idiotic. It is my view that it is idiotic to limit the issue to taxes, since there is obviously more involved to it than just that.

Last edited by SwissPinoy; 19.05.2013 at 12:36.
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  #143  
Old 19.05.2013, 11:00
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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those banks are rejecting US clients because they do not want to be forced to comply with US disclosure obligations, what is the US government supposed to do?
The US government was supposed to ensure that American citizens are not harmed with national origin discrimination, since national origin discrimination is a US federal crime.

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look, I think the US policy of taxing US citizens living abroad is stupid, too, but that stupidity hasn't changed in a long time. all the US is doing now is enforcing that stupidity.
It would have been better if the US government replaced citizenship-based taxation with residency-based taxation prior to forcing forcing banks to disclose the financial information of stateside Americans, preventing Americans abroad from being shut out of their local accounts.
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  #144  
Old 19.05.2013, 11:03
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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having just finalized my tax return for the first year we lived in Switzerland, I can tell you that the noise about taxes on income for US citizens living abroad is just that - noise.
Maybe it`s noise for you, it`s not noise for us. Level of income and tax rate where you live (we live in low tax Zug) along with all the other personal nuances will make a difference.

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For the past 50 years or so, citizenship-based taxation has changed little for Americans abroad.
Not true. They changed it where in the past you excluded the FEIE and then your first dollar over that was treated as your first dollar earned un US tax brackets, to where your first dollar over the FEIE is taxed at the rate applicable for the FEIE + that $1. So you are basically looking at 35% less your Swiss tax rate where in the past you would make your way through the tax rates.

Also, the strength of the CHF means people are earning more in US $.
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  #145  
Old 19.05.2013, 11:11
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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Not true. They changed it where in the past you excluded the FEIE and then your first dollar over that was treated as your first dollar earned un US tax brackets, to where your first dollar over the FEIE is taxed at the rate applicable for the FEIE + that $1. So you are basically looking at 35% less your Swiss tax rate where in the past you would make your way through the tax rates.

Also, the strength of the CHF means people are earning more in US $.
Ok, so that would maybe mean little change below the exclusion and not so little change above the exclusion. This won't explain why those with income below the exclusion renounced, while it may add to the reasons why those above the exclusion renounced. Yet, it is certainly not a sufficient reason for one to argue that all renunciations are tax-based.
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  #146  
Old 19.05.2013, 11:14
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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thanks for posting this!


/groan



It is such a burden for a US citizen to do taxes living outside the US? First, the paperwork itself is four times greater, the tax codes/laws are a LOT more complicated, and in most cases, without an accountant, one cannot do them properly, which leads to more problems.

To add to the facts... As a US citizen, if I am on US soil for more than 30 days in a calendar year (which includes an embassy btw, I cannot claim what is called the foreign earned income tax credit (which I am sure many of you already know).


Ahhh... finally you may be making a bit of sense. Yes, the policy's are the worst, and there is also a threat that comes up more and more often to remove the foreign earned income tax credit. That will kill most people working outside the US as the amount of taxes having to be paid will be crazy ridiculous.
I believe that is incorrect (about 30 days). There are 3 tests to qualify for the FEIE the 330 days test is just one of them. You can qualify under either of the other 2.

Removing the FEIE won`t make a difference to most US citizens abroad (money wise). All those in higher tax countries like UK, Germany, France, etc still won`t pay a thing, it will make their tax return calculations a bit harder. It would have a massive difference to people in low tax counties/ Kantons.
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  #147  
Old 19.05.2013, 11:18
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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Ok, so that would maybe mean little change below the exclusion and not so little change above the exclusion. This won't explain why those with income below the exclusion renounced, while it may add to the reasons why those above the exclusion renounced. Yet, it is certainly not a sufficient reason for one to argue that all renunciations are tax-based.
Depends on your definition of little. I actually would call the change significant (but only for those above the exclusion). But I agree I wouldn`t attribute it to increased renunciations.

Rather I would say the increase is due to enforcement of the law and I agree that I would say a large percentage of renunciations are "accidental" Americans.

If Americans could be fast tracked to another passport the figure would be much, much higher.
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  #148  
Old 19.05.2013, 11:49
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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Maybe it`s noise for you, it`s not noise for us. Level of income and tax rate where you live (we live in low tax Zug) along with all the other personal nuances will make a difference.
the US system ensures that the aggregate tax burden of US citizens living in Switzerland is not impacted by which Swiss village they live in, i.e. you pay more US tax and I pay more Swiss tax, but our aggregate burdens on the same incomes would be the same. we can debate whether or not you or I should be paying US tax at all, but it's tough to argue that the US system is not at least equitable.
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Old 19.05.2013, 11:58
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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the US system ensures that the aggregate tax burden of US citizens living in Switzerland is not impacted by which Swiss village they live in, i.e. you pay more US tax and I pay more Swiss tax, but our aggregate burdens on the same incomes would be the same. we can debate whether or not you or I should be paying US tax at all, but it's tough to argue that the US system is not at least equitable.
Yet in Switzerland you pay lower tax, you pay higher rent. We choose a place to live with higher rent (not for tax reasons). We could have choose to live in Kanton Zurich and paid significant less in rent but same overall in tax

You said the US tax return was just noise. Well maybe it is for you, for us it`s not.

I don`t think it would be a very long debate I havent found any expat who agrees with the concept of citizen based taxation. Probably need to throw in a few US citizens in the US to have a debate.
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  #150  
Old 19.05.2013, 12:07
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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once a person renounces their citizenship, they are treated the same as any other foreigner, the same as I am treated differently by the Swiss authorities and by the border authorities of every country I enter other than the US. I honestly don't see the problem here.
Agreed. All foreigners entering the US are technically at risk for special treatment at immigration. In fact, if you've been a citizen and returning, you're more likely to be interpreted as potentially ticking the boxes of someone looking to return for more than a short tourism stop.

It's the duty of the Consular officials to point out/warn the renunciators of possible future consequences of the step they are taking. That doesn't necessarily constitute threatening someone. (The stories on being accused of being unpatriotic is another topic).

Or do some ex-Americans expect their cake and eat it? "I know I renounced but I still wanted to be treated exceptionally on arrival 'home'".
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Old 19.05.2013, 12:14
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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I believe that is incorrect (about 30 days). There are 3 tests to qualify for the FEIE the 330 days test is just one of them. You can qualify under either of the other 2.

Removing the FEIE won`t make a difference to most US citizens abroad (money wise). All those in higher tax countries like UK, Germany, France, etc still won`t pay a thing, it will make their tax return calculations a bit harder. It would have a massive difference to people in low tax counties/ Kantons.
Yes, you are correct, there are three tests, but, from what I have read, and what E&Y has told me for two years, if I go over the 30, I disqualify myself from the FEIE. But, I just looked it up and that number is really 35 or 36 days

FEIE

Note, the first one says uninterrupted.. it is interrupted when one travels back
Second one doesn't apply
3rd states the 330

Anyway, all I know is, when E&Y itemized and removed the FEIE I can tell you, I owed a lot of money to the US, but, they do that just to compare, and because I did qualify for the IE, it saved me a bunch of money and I only have to pay (on average of two years) 5k, which I am still pissed about!!
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  #152  
Old 19.05.2013, 12:28
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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I don`t think it would be a very long debate I havent found any expat who agrees with the concept of citizen based taxation. Probably need to throw in a few US citizens in the US to have a debate.
It's not just expats. All Americans hate citizenship-based taxation, unconditionally, including those who do not yet realize such. There is not a single stateside American who would pay taxes on US-earned income to Iran simply because Iran declared them as being a citizen and introduced global taxation. America even has law enacted which prevent other nations from taxing US-earned income and America frequently condemns Eritrea for attempting to do so.

So, it would be true if one stated that any America who supports citizenship-based taxation is a hypocritical bigot, but some people have a hard time dealing with reality and tend to get offended for the wrong reasons.
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  #153  
Old 19.05.2013, 12:31
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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Agreed. All foreigners entering the US are technically at risk for special treatment at immigration. In fact, if you've been a citizen and returning, you're more likely to be interpreted as potentially ticking the boxes of someone looking to return for more than a short tourism stop.

It's the duty of the Consular officials to point out/warn the renunciators of possible future consequences of the step they are taking. That doesn't necessarily constitute threatening someone. (The stories on being accused of being unpatriotic is another topic).

Or do some ex-Americans expect their cake and eat it? "I know I renounced but I still wanted to be treated exceptionally on arrival 'home'".
Not going to America means that one gets to save the money or spend it on some other beautiful place. The only disadvantage to it is that the US economy suffers from the loss of tourist income.
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  #154  
Old 19.05.2013, 12:44
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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Yes, you are correct, there are three tests, but, from what I have read, and what E&Y has told me for two years, if I go over the 30, I disqualify myself from the FEIE. But, I just looked it up and that number is really 35 or 36 days

FEIE

Note, the first one says uninterrupted.. it is interrupted when one travels back
The first tests talks about being a bona fide resident of a foreign country. This is NOT interrupted when traveling abroad. Me goiing on holidays does not interrupt the fact I am a Swiss resident.

If E&Y are telling you that then they are simply wrong. If you travel to the US for business then the number of days you work there will reduce the FEIE pro rata.

We have the option to use PWC paid for by wife`s company and I do them myself because I found 2 very significant errors which left unnoticed/ unchallenged would have cost us many thousands.
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  #155  
Old 19.05.2013, 12:45
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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Depends on your definition of little. I actually would call the change significant (but only for those above the exclusion). But I agree I wouldn`t attribute it to increased renunciations.

Rather I would say the increase is due to enforcement of the law and I agree that I would say a large percentage of renunciations are "accidental" Americans.

If Americans could be fast tracked to another passport the figure would be much, much higher.
For me, a significant change would be a switch to residency-based taxation, a flat tax or sales tax. A moderate change could be something like the removal of the FEIE cap or the removal of FEIE. For small changes, I was thinking of calculation or percentage changes to existing rules.
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  #156  
Old 19.05.2013, 13:01
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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once a person renounces their citizenship, they are treated the same as any other foreigner, the same as I am treated differently by the Swiss authorities and by the border authorities of every country I enter other than the US. I honestly don't see the problem here.
Search and read. Ex-citizens denial of entry to US has been brought up a few times.
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  #157  
Old 19.05.2013, 14:17
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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Search and read. Ex-citizens denial of entry to US has been brought up a few times.
This is exactly why I am holding off until my father passes (which, hopefully, will be years from now), unless something drastic happens and I can no longer hold bank accounts, etc. in the country where I'm living.

The thing that gets to me about this is that the US was formed on the battle cry "no taxation without representation!", yet non-resident citizens have no true representation in government. Yes, we are permitted to vote for congress people for the last address where we lived, but those congress people are there to do the will for their constituents - and we're just not considered that by them.
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  #158  
Old 19.05.2013, 14:53
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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the US system ensures that the aggregate tax burden of US citizens living in Switzerland is not impacted by which Swiss village they live in, i.e. you pay more US tax and I pay more Swiss tax, but our aggregate burdens on the same incomes would be the same. we can debate whether or not you or I should be paying US tax at all, but it's tough to argue that the US system is not at least equitable.
Unfortunately, total tax doesn't always even out between those living in high and low CH tax cantons/Gemeinde. Depending on one's individual situation, one can end up paying more in US tax. If one lives in a higher tax Gemeinde one ends up with a larger deduction for CH taxes paid - which can throw one into the AMT, increasing US tax and thus total tax burden.

Living in low tax SZ means that I pay as much to Uncle Sam as I do to Helvetia - but I avoid that extra US-AMT tax that I had to pay when I was a ZH resident.
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  #159  
Old 19.05.2013, 21:08
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

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The thing that gets to me about this is that the US was formed on the battle cry "no taxation without representation!", yet non-resident citizens have no true representation in government. Yes, we are permitted to vote for congress people for the last address where we lived, but those congress people are there to do the will for their constituents - and we're just not considered that by them.
Every 4 years, Americans reelect the same demorepublican dictator. What do you expect? America is a fake democracy ruled by two power-hungry parties which pretend to be different but do more or less the same. It is impossible for the people be properly represented in such a one party monolopy. Last year, they told me that if I voted for them (democrat or republican), then they would hear my complaints and act on them. Naturally, I didn't believe it and still don't. If republicans and democrats care anything about their nation, then they will break up their power and make room for a multi-party system which includes representation for Americans living abroad. But, of course, they won't do that since most Americans loyally relect the demorepublican dictator each time over again with the belief that a one-party monarchy is the best thing they could ever have.
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Old 29.05.2013, 13:26
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Re: Giving up the blue passport because of FATCA - one member's experience

Temporary solution agreed:

http://www.bluewin.ch/fr/index.php/1...ws/suisse/sda/


The Federal Council found a solution to settle the conflict with the United States concerning the banks. Washington, not wanting to wait longer for its application, the government asks the Federal Chamber to modify the law from June, but for one year only.

The executivel adopted Wednesday the message allowing the legislative to process the topic in a special procedure during its summer session. The text will allow all Swiss banks to draw a ling through the past and to regulate their relations with the American authorities, announced the government.

Collaboration with the IRS

The banks will be able to collaborate with the IRS across the Atlantic and will be able to provide the information necessary to defend their interests. They will be able to communicate on the business relationships with American customers and people implicated in the banks' activities concerning the United States.

On the other hand, the project doesn't allow the supply of customers' data and account information. Their transmission will be solely in the context of an administrative request to help via a convention in force against double taxations.

Protection for employees

The law obliges the banks cooperating with the American IRS to guarantee the best possible protection to their employees. The establishments are meet with staff associations to negotiate to guarantee minimal requirements.

This puts an end to the conflict with the American IRS in the Swiss banks which it accused of having helped American customers evade tax. The solution regulates the case of a dozen banks with the regulator in Washington, but also of all other Swiss establishments.

How will this affect any/all of the propsed referendums is anyone's guess.
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