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  #21  
Old 02.09.2013, 12:14
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Re: Train suicide

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I wonder why they choose trains, I assume as relatively quick, painless and has a decent knock on effect to say f you cruel world and the bar stewards that inhabit it.

A far more thrilling exit would be flying down a slope on skis and just cannon off the edge of the cliff. Lot less mess too and a bit of a thrill before lights out.
Not sure that people who get to that point in their lives think that deeply about the effect on surrounding people nor whether they'll get a thrill out of the experience.
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Old 02.09.2013, 12:22
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Re: Train suicide

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Not sure that people who get to that point in their lives think that deeply about the effect on surrounding people nor whether they'll get a thrill out of the experience.
Oh, I figure it would weigh heavily on their mind, the method of suicide which would surely conjure up a little ponder of the aftermath.

True, on reflection, seeking a thrill prior could perhaps change their mind in flight when it is already too late.
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Old 02.09.2013, 12:47
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Re: Train suicide

Committing suicide is a very selfish gesture: you give up and let the others deal with the mess and the sorrow.

That being said, I sort of admit that everybody has the right to deal with his own life as he sees fit. Personally I wouldn't chose train suicide out of concern for the people who'll have to literally clean after me, but each to their own.

I feel for the train drivers though. Even though there's nothing they can do to stop on time, it must still be very tough.
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Old 02.09.2013, 12:51
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Re: Train suicide

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In Switzerland the first cause of death in young people is suicide...

Something to think about.
Not especially. I don't know the stats, but fundamentally, young people are not going to die of natural causes. They are going to die due to accidents and/or suicide.

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Committing suicide is a very selfish gesture: you give up and let the others deal with the mess and the sorrow...
Um, yes, well... suicide is not "normal" behaviour. To accuse someone of being selfish because they commit suicide is akin to saying an autistic child is "too loud" or "can't behave". Their behaviour is reflective of their state of mind which in turn is affected by whatever condition they have. Talking about this using black and white imperatives doesn't do anyone any favours.

Edit: This thread may provide an interesting insight for you: My daughter (18) RIP
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Old 02.09.2013, 12:55
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Re: Train suicide

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Committing suicide is a very selfish gesture: you give up and let the others deal with the mess and the sorrow.
I think that's a very unfair thing to say - none of the people I knew who sadly committed suicide were selfish, quite the contrary, they tended to be people who put a tremendous amount of energy into helping others. And I can tell you from personal experience that in that moment you generally think you are doing everyone a favour by disappearing because you feel so unimportant and useless.
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  #26  
Old 02.09.2013, 13:39
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Re: Train suicide

A friend of mine commited suicide at Christmas. My God I was so mad. I was so mad at him, so upset with him & yep I called him selfish plus many other names I wont repeat here.

Now, after some time has passed.... Im not so angry, I have dropped the use of the word selfish. He was hurting. Thats all I need to know.
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Old 02.09.2013, 14:04
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Re: Train suicide

IMHO, discussing reasons for suicide and judging people what pushed them to it is rather a faux-pass. Especially, some of us including myself had known people before who decided take their own lives. "I cannot find your silver linings, I don't mean to judge..."
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Old 02.09.2013, 14:04
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Re: Train suicide

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Although according to this, traffic accidents pips suicide to the post (36% due to traffic accidents vs 32% to suicide). I notice that it separates "overdose" from those stats but I assume that is accidental death due to drug use.

I have to say, I'm not surprised that traffic plays the larger part given the driving standards but, still, 32% for suicide is a pretty high proportion of overall deaths.

All the more upsetting at the moment considering a friend's husband has just taken his own life (not in Switzerland, though).
Im not quite sure about the stats (the link does not show), but not true..
Eg, 2011, men: Total deaths: 30,094, Suicides: 757, traffic accidents: 224
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/f...04/key/01.html



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Not especially. I don't know the stats, but fundamentally, young people are not going to die of natural causes. They are going to die due to accidents and/or suicide.
Also very true, ages 15-44: total deaths 1,062, suicides: 252, other accidents: 268, cancers: 167, heart attacks: 115
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Old 02.09.2013, 14:11
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Re: Train suicide

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Not especially. I don't know the stats, but fundamentally, young people are not going to die of natural causes. They are going to die due to accidents and/or suicide.



Um, yes, well... suicide is not "normal" behaviour. To accuse someone of being selfish because they commit suicide is akin to saying an autistic child is "too loud" or "can't behave". Their behaviour is reflective of their state of mind which in turn is affected by whatever condition they have. Talking about this using black and white imperatives doesn't do anyone any favours.

Edit: This thread may provide an interesting insight for you: My daughter (18) RIP
I'm aware of this thread.

And I'm speaking as someone who has tried to commit suicide in the past. So I do consider myself to have some sort of first hand experience there.

I do not condemn people committing suicide. Partly because I've tried it myself. But I'm entitled to my own opinion.
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Old 02.09.2013, 14:34
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Re: Train suicide

There are so many things one could say about suicide or suicide attempt.
I believe it is an act of desperation and/or hopelessness and I am not one to judge this. Some might say it is a selfish act and that is not completely wrong but I doubt the person who does kill him/herself is not acting on a completely normal and stable state of mind.

Someone I used to work with jumped in front of a train, it was shocking to me because she never gave signs of being depressed, she worked long hours and it was through these long hours that I got to meet her. It was really sad for me and I just would have liked to do something for her, anything so that she would not do this but it was her decision and there is nothing you can do.

Now, I will tell you a different story: I have a friend who was found by her roommate on the floor lying unconscious with half a bottle of vodka and an empty box of paracetamol pills. She was rushed to the hospital, where they performed a stomach lavage and took blood tests just to tell us that she had not taken any alcohol or pills. She worried us sick, I was so mad at her that I stopped talking to her for almost a year. Now this is something really sick and selfish and idiotic... I remember when I called her mom and had to tell her what had happened and we did not know the results yet, she was so unimpressed! My first impressions were that she was a mean uncaring person, but she said yeah she has done this before don't worry it will be OK.
After this episode, she was admitted to the psychiatric guard and was diagnsoed with bipolar disorder. We are friends again and I try to be more sympathetic now, she did apologize for what she did.
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Old 02.09.2013, 15:59
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Re: Train suicide

Being angry at the person committing suicide is a very normal and completely understandable emotion towards such a drastic action. It's one of many to react and remain conscious through such processes...
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  #32  
Old 02.09.2013, 16:23
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Re: Train suicide

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Now, I will tell you a different story: I have a friend who was found by her roommate on the floor lying unconscious with half a bottle of vodka and an empty box of paracetamol pills. She was rushed to the hospital, where they performed a stomach lavage and took blood tests just to tell us that she had not taken any alcohol or pills. She worried us sick, I was so mad at her that I stopped talking to her for almost a year. Now this is something really sick and selfish and idiotic... I remember when I called her mom and had to tell her what had happened and we did not know the results yet, she was so unimpressed! My first impressions were that she was a mean uncaring person, but she said yeah she has done this before don't worry it will be OK.
Sorry, Im confused. . . she didnt take anything but staged it too look like she had? SHe had no alcohol or pills in her system?
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Old 02.09.2013, 16:30
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Re: Train suicide

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In Switzerland the first cause of death in young people is suicide...

Something to think about.
I'm now thinking 'What causes them to die the second time'

Whilst I realise that these people are in a distressed state, I do subscribe to the view that it is selfish because of the tramua they inflict on others. For an extreme example, look at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufton_Nervet_rail_crash

Man parks his car on level crossing to commit suicide, and ends up killing 7 other people in the train crash he causes.
It's difficult to have any sympathy for someone willing to put other peoples lives at risk like that.

Last edited by parkrunner; 02.09.2013 at 16:31. Reason: I can't spell!
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Old 02.09.2013, 17:23
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Re: Train suicide

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Sorry, Im confused. . . she didnt take anything but staged it too look like she had? SHe had no alcohol or pills in her system?
Yes, exactly. She made her roommate and us believe she had attempted suicide while all she was doing was acting.
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Old 02.09.2013, 17:53
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Re: Train suicide

I never understood why someone would called people who make suicide selfish, this is so .... selfish???

Let me see: Someone feels miserable in his life, very miserable. So miserable that is not worth living anymore. Is she/he going to take a gun and start shooting on other people? No. Is she/he going into relationship and make the other half more miserable? No. Is he/she maybe getting child/pet and start to torment them? No. He or she is giving away the only thing that is really his, his/her own life.

And then, there are other people, his/her friends. Oh yes, they feel pain, pain of loss. Because they have lost something, a friend. And they are also angry on these dead person, why he is not with them anymore, why he doesn't talk and laugh with them. That is, what is selfish for me.
I know, it is shitty that you are late for your yoga class, because someone throw himself under the train.

Of course, someone who has children or parents will stay and suffer just not to cause them pain and damage, but that is actually what I would call unselfishness.
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Old 02.09.2013, 18:06
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Re: Train suicide

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I never understood why someone would called people who make suicide selfish, this is so .... selfish???

Let me see: Someone feels miserable in his life, very miserable. So miserable that is not worth living anymore. Is she/he going to take a gun and start shooting on other people? No. Is she/he going into relationship and make the other half more miserable? No. Is he/she maybe getting child/pet and start to torment them? No. He or she is giving away the only thing that is really his, his/her own life.

And then, there are other people, his/her friends. Oh yes, they feel pain, pain of loss. Because they have lost something, a friend. And they are also angry on these dead person, why he is not with them anymore, why he doesn't talk and laugh with them. That is, what is selfish for me.
I know, it is shitty that you are late for your yoga class, because someone throw himself under the train.

Of course, someone who has children or parents will stay and suffer just not to cause them pain and damage, but that is actually what I would call unselfishness.
I don't think it's selfish if they make the incident about them only, well, mainly them. There will always be someone who has to find them, be it randoms or family, as well as move them i.e. medical officials etc. There will always be grief for any loss, be suicide, natural or accident. So I found grief irrelevant when it comes to suicide.

It's certainly selfish when they decide to exit the world in a disruptive way. Whether that be subjecting an innocent person to the explosion of their body on a train windscreen, or the derailment of a train that then kills and injures other people and the knock on effect to peoples lives that disrupts.

Sure, the disruption can be trivial in comparison to the loss of life, but I am not sure why people are supposed to sympathize with those who choose to take their own lives.
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Old 02.09.2013, 18:44
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Re: Train suicide

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...Man parks his car on level crossing to commit suicide, and ends up killing 7 other people in the train crash he causes.
It's difficult to have any sympathy for someone willing to put other peoples lives at risk like that.
For me the issue comes quite simply down to the fact that people who commit suicide are not in full control of their faculties (fake attempts sh/could be discussed separately).

The view that people with depression and other mental disorders, where suicide rates are high, do not have an illness is archaic to say the least and do nothing to help reduce the stigma associated with them.

Do you blame a cancer victim for having cancer? Or a woman for having osteoporosis? Or a someone for having rheumatoid arthritis? Sure, lifestyle choices can affect any of these diseases, but it is crass to suggest (in most cases) that these people brought it upon themselves and any failure of treatment or care is their own fault.

The sooner people get off their high horses and realise that psychological problems are not imaginary but based on real chemical changes, which can sometimes be managed successfully (or not as per suicides), the better.
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  #38  
Old 03.09.2013, 09:45
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Re: Train suicide

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So I found grief irrelevant when it comes to suicide.
Really?
How?...
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Old 03.09.2013, 10:11
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Re: Train suicide

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Really?
How?...
I feel highlighting the grief associated with suicide in the context of selfishness is irrelevant as we grieve any loss of life of those we are close to. A loss that is often not a choice to be made by the person.
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Old 03.09.2013, 10:20
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Re: Train suicide

For decades, suicide has been a part of life in Switzerland. It's a sickness that hits every walk of life here, from the simple farmer to the successful company owner. Classmates, neighbours or relatives: anyone can succumb to the soul-sucking hope-quenching deep dark all-consuming pit. Some suicides are cries for help while others are the only method one sees to end their suffering.

In the past decade, Switzerland has made huge strides in taking the negative stigma off poor mental health and supporting those who are seeking help. What was once a tabu subject, mental health is now as important as physical health and is usually well-covered by health insurance.

One smile from you, one kind sentence and one sincere "how are you" can make a huge difference in a person's life.
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