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  #101  
Old 21.03.2016, 15:24
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Re: Train suicide

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There's a huge difference between joking about the arbitrary act of suicide and mocking someone who is suffering the consequences of it. The two mustn't be confused.
There is a time and a place for everything....I guess. One thing to joke about it in a movie, totally different in a classroom, but that is just my opinion...
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  #102  
Old 21.03.2016, 15:26
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Re: Train suicide

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Nobody denies that here- but if you can't see that using that example with a group of teenagers is out of order - then I am surprised. But I agree it is not a sackable offense, and that he should be given talk by the Head of the school and a warning. The rate of teenage crime is rising all the time- and the issues around have to be dealt with very sensitively.
Reality check:

The total number of teens aged 10-17 in CH rose from 669k in 1999 to 685k last year.
The number of verdicts is net flat.

Come to think of it:
If crime rate were indeed rising all the time it would go over 100% sooner or later. In a kind it reminds me of Aristotle "I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words"



Last edited by Urs Max; 21.03.2016 at 15:37.
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  #103  
Old 21.03.2016, 15:33
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Re: Train suicide

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(this especially as neither Dignitas nor Exit will help with depressive illness, unless linked to a terminal or physically debilitating conditions without further treatment).

Not quite true this as my husband's niece committed suicide with Exit at the age of 30, after being diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder.


Don't know if anybody else also saw it, but there was a documentary on TV some years ago about a bi-polar man who was monitored and filmed over 6 months whilst taking leave of all his friends and family before taking the final step of suicide with either Exit or Dignitas (can't remember which). Quite adamant that he wanted to die although to an onlooker there didn't seem to be a terribly valid reason.
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  #104  
Old 21.03.2016, 15:41
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Re: Train suicide

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Not quite true this as my husband's niece committed suicide with Exit at the age of 30, after being diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder.


Don't know if anybody else also saw it, but there was a documentary on TV some years ago about a bi-polar man who was monitored and filmed over 6 months whilst taking leave of all his friends and family before taking the final step of suicide with either Exit or Dignitas (can't remember which). Quite adamant that he wanted to die although to an onlooker there didn't seem to be a terribly valid reason.
Here it is.
link to the documentary

They helped 2 people with mental illnesses out of 200 cases in the previous year. Mrs. Vogt says that they have 2 psychiatrists evaluate the suicidal person and they need to know that the wish to die is not a symptom of the mental illness. The National Ethics commission looks in on these situations and a psychiatric expertise is required. The procedure takes several months. The National Ethics Commission says that in some cases assisting people with mental illness is permitted, if suicide is the only way out. EXIT takes on a very large responsibility when they help people - no matter the illness, and I'm thankful for this.

One of the problems I have with anti-assisted-suicide movements is that the onlooker's view and judgement of "validity of reasons" and suicide methods is very often placed above the suffering person's view.

Last edited by glowjupiter; 21.03.2016 at 15:56.
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  #105  
Old 21.03.2016, 15:42
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Re: Train suicide

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to an onlooker there didn't seem to be a terribly valid reason.

Indeed. And why should there be? If euthanasia is being offered as a service, surely it should be available to everyone for whatever - or no - reason.


Either euthanasia is right or it is wrong. If it is wrong, it should be illegal. If it is right, then it should be available to anyone who asks for it.


We expect that kind of service from bakers, and a cake is hardly a matter of life and death, is it?
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  #106  
Old 21.03.2016, 15:45
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Re: Train suicide

Extremely rare, and only after all avenues have been explored and advice, help, support given- and when it is totally clear there is no other option acceptable to the person- and they will, one way or another, commit suicide.
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  #107  
Old 21.03.2016, 16:02
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Re: Train suicide

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He could have found other examples, but I guess he was just being a bad ass. Which makes me wonder how suited for teaching such a person is, not mature enough. How would he deal with other, more important or even more delicate stuff. Some people are just not meant to be teachers, they could use their knowledge in other industries.
It was completely unethical.

As a parent (who's daughter had a friend who threw herself under a train at Stadlehofen a few years ago), as well as someone who's suffered the consequences others have described here of losing close and loved ones through suicide as laughable, I do not understand why previous posters would advocate lecturing our 14 year olds through seeing such exercises as interesting / "comical" means.

The groans that I've received are up to you, quite amazing in cases. Unfortunately I've experienced quite a bit in the past couple of days.

So what's the next step for those in your opinion, could it also be used for correcting

- homosexuality
- generic psychological illness
- non-generic psychological illness
- etc, etc.

I'm really disappointed in some / many.
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  #108  
Old 21.03.2016, 16:06
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Re: Train suicide

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- homosexuality
- generic psychological illness
- non-generic psychological illness

What an interesting list.


Very interesting.
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  #109  
Old 21.03.2016, 16:07
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Re: Train suicide

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Not quite true this as my husband's niece committed suicide with Exit at the age of 30, after being diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder.
That's truely shocking and incredibly sad.

My ex husband was diagnosed with PTSD and threatened suicide for the last 5yrs we were together. He never even attempted it, but the repeated threats damaged the lives of everyone around him. He's remarried now and I bare no grudge. In fact, I sincerely wish his new wife all the luck in the World.
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  #110  
Old 21.03.2016, 16:20
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Re: Train suicide

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The groans that I've received are up to you, quite amazing in cases. Unfortunately I've experienced quite a bit in the past couple of days.

So what's the next step for those in your opinion, could it also be used for correcting

- homosexuality
- generic psychological illness
- non-generic psychological illness
- etc, etc.

I'm really disappointed in some / many.
You seem to like to dish out, but cannot seem take it when tables are reversed.
Not trying to offend but sometimes you make things about you and in this case you have disregarded others' feelings, judging them as invalid, as if nobody else has experienced traumatizing losses.
On a different note, why do you expect forum members owe you anything or have to agree with you all the way?


As for not so qualified teachers, although many of mine had morbid facinations with suicide (usually the german teachers), they all handled the topic responsibly. We were also always encouraged to come forward to Vertauenslehrer with any problems. Perhaps teachers should check in with their colleagues once a week to discuss the week ahead?
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  #111  
Old 21.03.2016, 16:23
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Re: Train suicide

My niece threw herself off a bridge falling hundreds of feet to her death - she was not depressed and I believe that it was a spur of the moment thing as she was involved with a guy. She was only 16 and as we know it is a difficult age for youngsters influenced by hormones etc. I truly think she just wanted the attention and lacked the maturity to consider what devastating consequences her action would take

Was listening to a programme the other day about the amount of young people who are committing suicide, especially young men. I find it so tragic that so many lives are lost usually over things that maybe there is a solution to.
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  #112  
Old 21.03.2016, 16:24
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Re: Train suicide

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There's a huge difference between joking about the arbitrary act of suicide and mocking someone who is suffering the consequences of it. The two mustn't be confused.

You may joke about the arbitrary act of suicide, even if you joke about it with friends or colleagues , just bear in mind you don't know who has had to deal with suicide, its not something we broadcast....but listening to these comments - hurts.
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  #113  
Old 21.03.2016, 16:33
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Re: Train suicide

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You may joke about the arbitrary act of suicide, even if you joke about it with friends or colleagues , just bear in mind you don't know who has had to deal with suicide, its not something we broadcast....but listening to these comments - hurts.
Another one. If you know you're going to be "hurt" by such comments, then it's simple, don't read them.

And if one so wishes, this is something one may broadcast. There exists in Switzerland the right of freedom of speech, which shouldn't be compromised because a few sensitive souls have their feelings hurt.
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  #114  
Old 21.03.2016, 16:48
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Re: Train suicide

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And if one so wishes, this is something one may broadcast. There exists in Switzerland the right of freedom of speech, which shouldn't be compromised because a few sensitive souls have their feelings hurt.
There is also in Switzerland, a high incidence of suicide, so there's a much higher chance that people here have been affected by this than an audience strictly based within the UK (for example).

Mocking each other doesn't achieve anything. As with the FlyDubai crash thread, subjects such as this really highlight how different people are. Yes, we have the free speech to debate these things. Yes, we have the right to be appalled by what other write. Yes, we have the right to have our feelings respected.

With any tragedy, there are people who wallow in the grief of others and personalise it, many empathise, many are pragmatic, some are desensitised and some are blatantly obnoxious. But we are supposed to be above ridiculing each other for how we respond to tragedy and grief.

Last edited by Blueangel; 21.03.2016 at 17:13.
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  #115  
Old 21.03.2016, 16:58
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Re: Train suicide

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It was completely unethical.
.
Yes, I agree with you 100%.
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You seem to like to dish out, but cannot seem take it when tables are reversed.
Not trying to offend but sometimes you make things about you and in this case you have disregarded others' feelings, judging them as invalid, as if nobody else has experienced traumatizing losses.
C'mon girls and boys, let's cut each other some slack, you didn't walk into ZuriRollt's shoes, neither she in yours. Sometimes people feel like their voice is not heard amid what they see as an absurd and noisy consensus, not that they seek for approval, they are looking for a more receptive audience so to say.
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You may joke about the arbitrary act of suicide, even if you joke about it with friends or colleagues , just bear in mind you don't know who has had to deal with suicide, its not something we broadcast....but listening to these comments - hurts.
This.
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  #116  
Old 21.03.2016, 16:59
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Re: Train suicide

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Mocking each other doesn't achieve anything... But we are supposed to be above ridiculing each other for how we respond to tragedy and grief.
Where have people been ridiculed on this thread?

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Yes, we have the free speech to debate these things.
Yes.

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Yes, we have the right to be appalled by what other write.
Yes.

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Yes, we have the right to have our feelings respected.
No, you don't. The only one who is in control of their own feelings is you. When you start demanding people respect your feelings, then it's another way of telling them what they can and can't say.
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  #117  
Old 21.03.2016, 17:07
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Re: Train suicide

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Another one. If you know you're going to be "hurt" by such comments, then it's simple, don't read them.

And if one so wishes, this is something one may broadcast. There exists in Switzerland the right of freedom of speech, which shouldn't be compromised because a few sensitive souls have their feelings hurt.
Yes, but with that freedom comes a certain amount of personal responsibility. Just because you can say something, it doesn't necessarily mean that you should say it without due thought.
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  #118  
Old 21.03.2016, 17:10
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Re: Train suicide

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No, you don't. The only one who is in control of their own feelings is you. When you start demanding people respect your feelings, then it's another way of telling them what they can and can't say.
So simplistic, so black and white. In reality we all know people are complicated and social dynamics doesn't work this way.
Ideally, yes, it would be wonderful if we could just shrug it off, every time.
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  #119  
Old 21.03.2016, 17:14
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Re: Train suicide

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No, you don't. The only one who is in control of their own feelings is you. When you start demanding people respect your feelings, then it's another way of telling them what they can and can't say.

No it's not telling people what to say or not, it's just expressing an opinion, and trying to make others aware. I have been guilty of some comments in the past. But I can tell you now, that as someone who has had to deal with suicide, I do not make these comments. It's just about awareness and consideration. You would probably be surprised how many people contemplate or have attempted suicide. Since my experience some close friends, who i would never have guessed, have attempted it and have only just informed me. Could be the same in your circles. Just saying, not dictating.
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  #120  
Old 21.03.2016, 17:15
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Re: Train suicide

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Yes, but with that freedom comes a certain amount of personal responsibility. Just because you can say something, it doesn't necessarily mean that you should say it without due thought.
Have never used the "Edit ignore list" much before now, but now it's pretty much bulging over.
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