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Michelle55 21.09.2013 22:50

Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Hello! we're trying to build a TV stand, of which two big cabinets are needed to hang up on the wall. Hubby tried to drill a hole through the concrete wall to hang the cabinet and spent 30mins only to drill through 2-cm deep. 5-cm mininal for each of the total 8 holes we need. We have a 750w power drill.
Wondered if it's the drill, or manpower or it's simply impossible to drill through a concrete wall?:confused:
Comments/advice/suggestions are very welcome & appreciated. Thanks!!

k_and_e 21.09.2013 22:55

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
you need a special drill for concrete. that will do the job. you can buy them at any DIY store.
a stone drill just doesn't work in concrete.

Michelle55 21.09.2013 23:01

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Hi, many thanks for the quick reply. Is there any particular brand you'd recommend? I'd assume places like Jumbo will have them?
Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by k_and_e (Post 1980521)
you need a special drill for concrete. that will do the job. you can buy them at any DIY store.
a stone drill just doesn't work in concrete.


Captain Greybeard 21.09.2013 23:54

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michelle55 (Post 1980525)
Hi, many thanks for the quick reply. Is there any particular brand you'd recommend? I'd assume places like Jumbo will have them?
Thanks!

Yes, Jumbo has them. The correct term is Bohrhammer, much more powerful than an ordinary Schlagbohrmaschine. In English, both kinds are called hammer drill, in our neck of the woods in the US Midwest anyway, but in German there are two different terms.

Since you aren't going to use that thing 24/7 it needn't be one of the top notch brands, otherwise you'll pay 60 CHF per hole.

Guest 22.09.2013 01:07

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michelle55 (Post 1980518)
Hello! we're trying to build a TV stand, of which two big cabinets are needed to hang up on the wall. Hubby tried to drill a hole through the concrete wall to hang the cabinet and spent 30mins only to drill through 2-cm deep. 5-cm mininal for each of the total 8 holes we need. We have a 750w power drill.
Wondered if it's the drill, or manpower or it's simply impossible to drill through a concrete wall?:confused:
Comments/advice/suggestions are very welcome & appreciated. Thanks!!

You need an SDS hammer drill. Most other domestic electric drills, even those with "hammer" function just don't cut the mustard in the concrete that's used in Swiss (and French) buildings. The brand is not important, unless you're going to be using it daily and want it to last for years,but there's a good range available in any Co-op doitall, Migros, Jumbo or whatever. Just ask for advice, then buy one for half the price of the one they recommend;)

Edit: just re-read this, and it needs more info - just google SDS for that. It's a system supported by all the major brands and allows a much more intense hammer action, independent of the rotation of the drill bit, to really get through the hard concrete you've experienced.

newsjoke 22.09.2013 06:53

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michelle55 (Post 1980518)
Hello! we're trying to build a TV stand, of which two big cabinets are needed to hang up on the wall. Hubby tried to drill a hole through the concrete wall to hang the cabinet and spent 30mins only to drill through 2-cm deep. 5-cm mininal for each of the total 8 holes we need. We have a 750w power drill.
Wondered if it's the drill, or manpower or it's simply impossible to drill through a concrete wall?:confused:
Comments/advice/suggestions are very welcome & appreciated. Thanks!!

Usually a hammer drill should do the trick, provided you're using the right kind of drill bit, it has to be a drill bit for concrete, normal stone bits aren't strong enough. You should find the drill bit, "Bohrer" in German, at any DIY store. Also, if you're drilling through concrete, odds are you're going to hit steel at least once or twice, in that case, move the hole a centimetre to the left or right, or up or down, all depending on whether you've hit a vertical or horizontal bar. If it helps, the spacing between bars, vertical or horizontal, is usually 15 or 20 centimetres.

Village Idiot 22.09.2013 07:48

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Just so you know what you're dealing with -- our neighbors pulled out one of the walls in their apartment and it's sitting in a skip in front of their house.

http://i41.tinypic.com/vrtu09.jpg

You'll notice that there's about 1cm of plaster on the left-hand side, and a good 30cm of cement behind it. This explains why our house is so quiet, and also why a CHF30- drill isn't going to cut it! As others have said, you need a hammer drill and masonry bits.

Verbier 22.09.2013 09:49

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
4 Attachment(s)
If you decide to buy a drill (rather than try to borrow one from the neighbours), I suggest you go to Hornbach. This model Mac Allister was purchased there. You might be able to rent one from them as well.

As rob1 mentions below, this type of drill is called an SDS drill (not a hammer drill). You should be asking for this. The other way to see it is via the NO chuck / different drill bits.

The first thing you will notice from the main photo is that there is no "chuck" the part that normally grips the drill bit. These heavy duty drills use another system. You can see that it slides into place and is kept in place with the slots that are on the end of the drill bit (see photo).

So, this means that you need the drill and the drill bit adapted to the drill. You can get both at Hornbach. You can buy a set of drill bits or just the size you need.

I have mounted a flat screen TV on the wall of our bomb shelter with this drill and a 10mm drill bit. It works. :D

rob1 22.09.2013 11:21

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
I recently put 4 holes in for track lighting, even with a good hammer drill it took some effort when going straight for the final size.

I found the easist thing to do is go up hole size in stages, if you go for 10mm straight away forget it as it takes ages.

Start at 4mm and work up then its quite easy. Or buy a SDS and do it in 1 hit, though a few drill bits will be cheaper than a sds machine.

Check if you can rent one as an alternative also.

John_H 22.09.2013 17:35

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
I've got a 'proper' makita SDS drill .. However I can also recommend the cheapo from Ikea, they do a drill with a few SDS type bits included, cordless, in a nice little box for 49chf or there abouts.

It's not fancy but i've drilled a few holes in concrete just fine with it. If you only have 8 holes to do then it should be fine.

Michelle55 22.09.2013 17:48

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Thanks! That's very visual. I"m thinking 'what a mission impossible' to hang that TV stand! My hubby is certainly more determined than me to conquer this 'concrete wall'!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Village Idiot (Post 1980581)
Just so you know what you're dealing with -- our neighbors pulled out one of the walls in their apartment and it's sitting in a skip in front of their house.

http://i41.tinypic.com/vrtu09.jpg

You'll notice that there's about 1cm of plaster on the left-hand side, and a good 30cm of cement behind it. This explains why our house is so quiet, and also why a CHF30- drill isn't going to cut it! As others have said, you need a hammer drill and masonry bits.


Michelle55 22.09.2013 17:52

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Thanks very much Verbier. I like pictures. It explains so much more than words. I will also check the rental options as suggested.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Verbier (Post 1980598)
If you decide to buy a drill (rather than try to borrow one from the neighbours), I suggest you go to Hornbach. This model Mac Allister was purchased there. You might be able to rent one from them as well.

As rob1 mentions below, this type of drill is called an SDS drill (not a hammer drill). You should be asking for this. The other way to see it is via the NO chuck / different drill bits.

The first thing you will notice from the main photo is that there is no "chuck" the part that normally grips the drill bit. These heavy duty drills use another system. You can see that it slides into place and is kept in place with the slots that are on the end of the drill bit (see photo).

So, this means that you need the drill and the drill bit adapted to the drill. You can get both at Hornbach. You can buy a set of drill bits or just the size you need.

I have mounted a flat screen TV on the wall of our bomb shelter with this drill and a 10mm drill bit. It works. :D


newsjoke 22.09.2013 17:56

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michelle55 (Post 1980789)
Thanks! That's very visual. I"m thinking 'what a mission impossible' to hang that TV stand! My hubby is certainly more determined than me to conquer this 'concrete wall'!

Yes, us men generally tend to take that position, as the Germans would put it: "Männer lassen sich nicht gern von Material verarschen." In other words, men don't like taking crap from materials.

Verbier 23.09.2013 11:42

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
I just got the latest Hornbach flyer in the mail today. They have a Pattfield SDS drill (900 watts) that can handle drill bits up to 26mm in concrete for CHF 79.

The drill bit you would need is probably 10mm which will add about CHF 10-12 to that cost.

It seems that Pattfield is a home hobby level of brand that Hornbach sells.

I suggest you buy the drill then keep it or sell it as it will be cheaper/less hassle than renting for the day.

tones 23.09.2013 11:58

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Another problem with boring into concrete is dust. I do a lot of boring (of all kinds...), and I have one of these:

http://www.werkzeugladen24.com/out/p...gbh2-23rea.jpg

Now, if you're only going to bore a few holes, the purchase of such a device is uneconomic, but I'd suggest trying to see whether you can borrow one or something with a vacuum attachment.

I was boring holes in the daughters' place at the weekend, including a deep one in the ceiling over one of the beds - and not a bit of dust escaped the thing to mess up the bed. Great gadget.

Anjela 23.09.2013 12:25

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tones (Post 1981225)
Another problem with boring into concrete is dust. I do a lot of boring (of all kinds...), and I have one of these:

http://www.werkzeugladen24.com/out/p...gbh2-23rea.jpg

Now, if you're only going to bore a few holes, the purchase of such a device is uneconomic, but I'd suggest trying to see whether you can borrow one or something with a vacuum attachment.

I was boring holes in the daughters' place at the weekend, including a deep one in the ceiling over one of the beds - and not a bit of dust escaped the thing to mess up the bed. Great gadget.

Hubby simply tapes an open envelope just below where he's drilling. Catches most of the dust and costs next to nothing!

Guest 23.09.2013 12:29

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Verbier (Post 1981205)
I just got the latest Hornbach flyer in the mail today. They have a Pattfield SDS drill (900 watts) that can handle drill bits up to 26mm in concrete for CHF 79.

The drill bit you would need is probably 10mm which will add about CHF 10-12 to that cost.

Looks like it comes with " Beiliegendes Zubehör Zusatzhandgriff, Tiefenanschlag, 3 SDS-Plus Bohrer: 8,10,12 mm, Flachmeißel, Spitzenmeißel, Staubkappe"

I must say it looks good, and a bargain at that price. If only I didn't already have five electric drills...

Verbier 23.09.2013 12:42

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Quote:

Looks like it comes with " Beiliegendes Zubehör Zusatzhandgriff, Tiefenanschlag, 3 SDS-Plus Bohrer: 8,10,12 mm, Flachmeißel, Spitzenmeißel, Staubkappe"

I must say it looks good, and a bargain at that price. If only I didn't already have five electric drills...

The CH one is a different colour (grey) and the ad does not mention any drill bits (too bad).

lmerkel 23.09.2013 13:40

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
If it is in your budget, I would hire a professional handyman. We had the same issue with trying to put in our lighting - our ceiling is concrete because the heating runs through the floors and apartments are sound proof. We got the right tool and my husband was determined, until he started to drill and a chunk of the ceiling came down. We decided on a professional so we wouldn't have to pay any additional cost if my husband ruined the ceiling. In the end - 2 hours work for 120ch. Well worth it.

symphara 24.09.2013 00:17

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anjela (Post 1981256)
Hubby simply tapes an open envelope just below where he's drilling. Catches most of the dust and costs next to nothing!

You can just use the hoover :D Remove the attachment, keep it on under the hole as you go along. No mess, no need to destroy an envelope!

As for the power drill, I seriously recommend a Makita. In any case get a power drill that uses the drill heads with the groove - they can't slip inside the machine.

Guest 24.09.2013 10:22

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by symphara (Post 1981914)
As for the power drill, I seriously recommend a Makita. In any case get a power drill that uses the drill heads with the groove - they can't slip inside the machine.

The main advantage of the SDS-Plus system being suggested (regardless of the manufacturer) isn't really about avoiding rotational slippage, but generating serious impact. The wide base of the drill-bit is in direct contact with an independently-pulsing 'hammer' that generates much more pressure through to the object material than could ever be achieved with a traditional 'hammer drill' that simply relies on a ratchet action.

I discovered all this about ten years back, when I was trying to drill mounting holes in the garage of our french house. Even using new masonry bits with my older hammer drills would take an absolute age to penetrate deeper than the softer surface layer. Like half an hour per hole, lots of sweat, and another ruined drill bit. I even thought at one point that there must be something other than concrete in the walls.

But a visit to our local Bricolage shop, where I was asking for a more powerful, higher-speed, drill, revealed all. And in fact the SDS ones generally rotate significantly more slowly. Anyway, 150 euros lighter of wallet I wandered back to the house, got the drill out and had finished drilling my eight or ten holes in about ten minutes. Absolutely amazing difference.

Edit: that EU150 purchase was before the influx of cheap power tools that makes such things available now for half that price, or even less. But mine also had a fixed-hammer setting great for chiselling tiles off and smashing the concrete shell that the previous houseowner seemed to think necessary to install under the bath I was replacing. A good investment, no question.

Michelle55 24.09.2013 11:03

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
That's very true in his case ;)
Quote:

Originally Posted by newsjoke (Post 1980794)
Yes, us men generally tend to take that position, as the Germans would put it: "Männer lassen sich nicht gern von Material verarschen." In other words, men don't like taking crap from materials.


Michelle55 24.09.2013 11:08

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
That looks like a really good bargain. Hubby is searching for the nearest store to get one. It will keep him busy this weekend and I hope I would be able to sit on sofa & watch TV on Sunday :D


Quote:

Originally Posted by Verbier (Post 1981205)
I just got the latest Hornbach flyer in the mail today. They have a Pattfield SDS drill (900 watts) that can handle drill bits up to 26mm in concrete for CHF 79.

The drill bit you would need is probably 10mm which will add about CHF 10-12 to that cost.

It seems that Pattfield is a home hobby level of brand that Hornbach sells.

I suggest you buy the drill then keep it or sell it as it will be cheaper/less hassle than renting for the day.


tones 24.09.2013 11:11

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Quote:

I even thought at one point that there must be something other than concrete in the walls.
There can be! If you hit a reinforcing rod, the head of an SDS bit glows white-hot and the carbide part sometimes falls off. Thankfully, I haven't done this too often.

Karl 24.09.2013 11:21

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Call joethehandyman.ch

He can do anything!

magnamax 24.09.2013 12:00

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
So a handy tip which will solve most of this problem, even without a particularly magic drill, is to regularly wet the drill bit when drilling, using a handy cup of water. Drills lose effectiveness massively through heat, and concrete drilling generates serious heat. Try it and thank me later :msngrin:

symphara 24.09.2013 13:06

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Quote:

The main advantage of the SDS-Plus system being suggested (regardless of the manufacturer) isn't really about avoiding rotational slippage, but generating serious impact.
No argument here - I'm not a pro :) I did notice a lot of slippage with my normal Black&Decker.

rastapopulus 11.08.2020 12:03

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by John_H (Post 1980780)
I've got a 'proper' makita SDS drill .. However I can also recommend the cheapo from Ikea, they do a drill with a few SDS type bits included, cordless, in a nice little box for 49chf or there abouts.

It's not fancy but i've drilled a few holes in concrete just fine with it. If you only have 8 holes to do then it should be fine.

I have an IKEA Fixa drill
https://www.ikea.com/ch/en/p/fixa-ha...-ion-30232895/

but it was unable to cut through concrete.
I am now planning on trying to get a new set of drill bits instead of a new machine.
https://www.galaxus.ch/en/s4/product...s=426-1029-141

Wish me luck.

Guest 11.08.2020 12:15

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rastapopulus (Post 3205646)
I have an IKEA Fixa drill
https://www.ikea.com/ch/en/p/fixa-ha...-ion-30232895/

but it was unable to cut through concrete.
I am now planning on trying to get a new set of drill bits instead of a new machine.
https://www.galaxus.ch/en/s4/product...s=426-1029-141

Wish me luck.

You'll need more than luck. New drill bits will not be sufficient. What you need, as mentioned back when this thread was first active, but not changed since then, is a proper decent SDS drill.

The one that you've got has a purely rotary action, with a sort of ratchet simply moving the mechanism back and forth, but not generating any more pressure on the concrete than you can physically exert yourself.

SDS drills, on the other hand, use a pneumatic hammer action which can generate much more force. Honestly, it will make drilling your concrete walls feel like a hot knife through butter compared with the Ikea one you have already tried.

There's a good choice at Hornbach or any other DIY shop. The cheaper ones in that link, branded 'Pattfield' are an own brand, but I have used one of their drills and some other tools for some years now and would definitely recommend them.

If it's just for occasional home use I wouldn't bother with any of the cordless models, by the way. Just not worth paying the extra for unless you're frequently moving between sites or working in isolated areas with no easy mains power supply, and the cheaper ones do tend to be somewhat underpowered, whereas even the cheapest of the mains ones will be plenty powerful enough.

aSwissInTheUS 11.08.2020 12:26

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Quote:

You'll need more than luck. New drill bits will not be sufficient. What you need, as mentioned back when this thread was first active, but not changed since then, is a proper decent SDS drill.

The one that you've got has a purely rotary action, with a sort of ratchet simply moving the mechanism back and forth, but not generating any more pressure on the concrete than you can physically exert yourself.
It is possible with the "right" drill bits. But it needs time, patient, a steady hand, and cooling.

Here the entry level SDS Bohrhammer from the Bosh professional line:

https://www.microspot.ch/de/baumarkt...w--p0001207250
or this cordless one
https://www.galaxus.ch/de/s4/product...schine-8445556

Phil_MCR 11.08.2020 12:34

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
https://i.imgur.com/VZwhoFel.jpg

agree with the above. get an sds(plus) drill. makes things a lot easier.

just had to drill through 50cm of wall today. (why do you need 50cm internal walls???)

Guest 11.08.2020 12:38

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil_MCR (Post 3205666)
just had to drill through 50cm of wall today. (why do you need 50cm internal walls???)

Be thankful. I recently discovered that one of the outer walls of our chalet is just foam covered with crepy on the outside, at least 8cm deep. Seems to be concrete blocks covered in plaster on the inside so I'm not worried about it's structural integrity, but it seems all the wrong way round to me.

All else apart, you can't solidly anchor anything in it. I fitted a couple of shutter latches t'other week, just screwed them directly into this foam by hand. They seem to be holding, but I realised at that point why none had been fitted there originally. :msncrazy:

Phil_MCR 11.08.2020 12:41

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Quote:

Be thankful. I recently discovered that one of the outer walls of our chalet is just foam covered with crepy on the outside, at least 8cm deep. Seems to be concrete blocks covered in plaster on the inside, but it seems all the wrong way round to me :msncrazy:
what's crepy?

Guest 11.08.2020 12:46

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil_MCR (Post 3205669)
what's crepy?

Crépi (sorry for the typo) . Wandputz. 'Render' in English, I guess.

Phil_MCR 11.08.2020 12:47

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
i wonder how buildings with this kind of external foam cladding can breathe and whether it will cause condensation between the concrete and foam layers.

Treverus 11.08.2020 12:49

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Quote:

Be thankful. I recently discovered that one of the outer walls of our chalet is just foam covered with crepy on the outside, at least 8cm deep. Seems to be concrete blocks covered in plaster on the inside so I'm not worried about it's structural integrity, but it seems all the wrong way round to me.

All else apart, you can't solidly anchor anything in it. I fitted a couple of shutter latches t'other week, just screwed them directly into this foam by hand. They seem to be holding, but I realised at that point why none had been fitted there originally. :msncrazy:
That’s not the wrong way but the new normal according to low energy consumption standards... my house is some 30 cm styrofoam covered with plaster on the outside.

Tom1234 11.08.2020 12:49

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil_MCR (Post 3205669)
what's crepy?

An old graveyard at night?

HIAO 11.08.2020 12:52

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
We’ve just hung a rather large mirror floor that was previously floor mounted, and now needs to be out of the way of mini-HIAO as he starts crawling. Our concrete walls are hard work.

After I did the bloke maths, I couldn’t justify buying a dewalt SDS drill from Jumbo that i thought would be perfect. With the right concrete drill bits, it was about 150 bucks per hole.

I think Jumbo also sell a mains SDS drill for 49 bucks and some price points in between.

In the end, I borrowed a non-SDS Bosch Pro, and worked patiently up though drill bit sizes, starting with 3mm. Took 15 mins in total for 2 holes.

Drill was fine. And cost me a bottle of Prosecco.

venetian 11.08.2020 12:58

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aSwissInTheUS (Post 3205663)
Here the entry level SDS Bohrhammer from the Bosh professional line:

https://www.microspot.ch/de/baumarkt...w--p0001207250

I think I have this Bosch model, non-professional but it says SDS-Plus in the description:
https://www.edileehobby.ch/macchinar...0-re/p/4302275
just out of curiosity, would it also work on concrete (with the proper bit)?

Caleb 11.08.2020 12:59

Re: Help needed - drill holes in concrete wall
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil_MCR (Post 3205671)
i wonder how buildings with this kind of external foam cladding can breathe and whether it will cause condensation between the concrete and foam layers.

No, it doesn't. It's a complex system, called ETICS (externally thermal insulated composite systems). They have different layers, and they prevent sudden thermal bridges where condensation could occur.


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