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  #61  
Old 15.03.2014, 16:18
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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Me too.
German skills would be pretty useless round here in any case, I don't even think they speak much in the commune office if a couple of the conversations I've overheard whilst in there are indicative of their German speaking skills.

Although at one time, long ago, my Flemish was at A2 level... I wonder if I still have my class certificates. Would that help? Apparently it's similar.
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Old 15.03.2014, 22:40
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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It can be difficult to learn a language, especially if you're a stay-at-home parent or work in a fully-English speaking working environment (or where it comes to German, because it's not actually the local language in reality).
Exactly, High German is very different from Swiss German so asking for a certificate to prove your level of High German is just ridiculous.

Giving tax breaks to companies where English is the official language and then asking employees of these companies to learn German is nonsense.

It also limits mobility between Cantons. Recently Shire (pharma) moved their offices from Nyon to Zug. Now Shire employees who want a C permit are expected to produce a certificate of their German language ability?

The Swiss should start by learning to speak proper German themselves before they start demanding language certificates from others.
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  #63  
Old 15.03.2014, 22:46
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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what do you mean by this? that some gemeindes pay more tax to have their residents avoid a language test? or that if you pay more than a certain amount of tax you don't have a language test?
Favorable treatment for the better off, no surprise there.
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Old 16.03.2014, 08:30
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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Exactly, High German is very different from Swiss German so asking for a certificate to prove your level of High German is just ridiculous.
You appear to have misunderstood or ignored the principle point I made.

Notwithstanding that it is harder to learn high German because it is not the language that is commonly spoken, we're still talking only about A2 level that you have five years to learn. We're talking about a very basic level of the language that a dyslexic orang-outang with a learning disorder would be able to grasp in that time, if they put in a minimum of effort to do so.

If they're not willing to do that, they can always just renew their B status. After all, there's not a Hell of a lot of difference in practical terms between B and C, except that the latter is for those who wish to have permanent residence - who want to settle down here in Switzerland indefinitely - and thus is more streamlined where it comes to renewal.

If you want to make a commitment like that, then being required to speak what is a very basic level of German is hardly an unreasonable demand. Indeed, the sense of entitlement that makes some feel they should be able to settle down in a country while not bothering to make the slightest effort at integration into that community is a much better example of unreasonable.

Ironically, those who seem to have this sense of entitlement tend to also be the first to complain about 'Mexicans not speaking English' or 'Pakistanis imposing their culture in the West', when back home.

Last edited by Aeneas; 16.03.2014 at 08:48.
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  #65  
Old 16.03.2014, 08:52
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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Definitely a good thing. should be a B1 requirement. I think 5 years is more than long enough to learn the language.... Oder ?
Ha ha, wishful thinking in many cases, as far as I've seen. It is a lot more difficult to pick up the language if you don't really need it - i.e. at work or in the family.
I know 2 mixed couples who are together for more than 5 years and have continuously lived here, with one of them having German/Swiss-German as mother tongue....and after so many years they still speak English with each other, although neither of them is a native speaker...it is just the way it is. Should/must/have to...c'mon.
That is not to say I didn't learn the language, but I can understand why and how others don't.
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  #66  
Old 16.03.2014, 08:58
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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You appear to have misunderstood or ignored the principle point I made.

Notwithstanding that it is harder to learn high German because it is not the language that is commonly spoken, we're still talking only about A2 level that you have five years to learn. We're talking about a very basic level of the language that a dyslexic orang-outang with a learning disorder would be able to grasp in that time, if they put in a minimum of effort to do so.

If they're not willing to do that, they can always just renew their B status. After all, there's not a Hell of a lot of difference in practical terms between B and C, except that the latter is for those who wish to have permanent residence - who want to settle down here in Switzerland indefinitely - and thus is more streamlined where it comes to renewal.

If you want to make a commitment like that, then being required to speak what is a very basic level of German is hardly an unreasonable demand. Indeed, the sense of entitlement that makes some feel they should be able to settle down in a country while not bothering to make the slightest effort at integration into that community is a much better example of unreasonable.

Ironically, those who seem to have this sense of entitlement tend to also be the first to complain about 'Mexicans not speaking English' or 'Pakistanis imposing their culture in the West', when back home.
Spanish, Portuguese and Italians are exempt from this requirement. Does that seem logical to you?
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  #67  
Old 16.03.2014, 09:07
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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Spanish, Portuguese and Italians are exempt from this requirement. Does that seem logical to you?
It is not about logical or not. These countries have a treaty with Switzerland.
And after 5 years, everyone should be able to speak a language at A2 level.
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  #68  
Old 16.03.2014, 09:08
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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Spanish, Portuguese and Italians are exempt from this requirement. Does that seem logical to you?
No, but that wasn't my point either.
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Old 16.03.2014, 09:15
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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It is not about logical or not. These countries have a treaty with Switzerland.
And after 5 years, everyone should be able to speak a language at A2 level.
I actually agree with this. It's German at a "comfort level" i.e. enough to make your life a bit easier in shops, restaurants and dealing with the every day bills, road signs and tram announcements.

Yes, there should be some incentive to get to this level but I'm not sure withholding a C permit is the way to go. There may be a treaty with certain countries which are exempt from this condition but stripping it back to its bottom line, it's still treating some EU countries, which are essentially in the same band and therefore equal, with unfair advantages.

Personally it wouldn't affect me as I'm now Swiss and I speak German / understand the dialect, plus I can still make sense when I'm tiddly (the real test!) but I can understand how some would view it as unfair.
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Old 16.03.2014, 09:33
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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Spanish, Portuguese and Italians are exempt from this requirement. Does that seem logical to you?
The answer is yes.

Italian is an official language in Switzerland. So the Bund cannot force Italians to learn another language of Switzerland.

In German Switzerland: most people from Iberia and Italy speak fluently the local language / dialect. Besides many are also fluent in French (Italians) and French / Italian (Iberians)!
Every Portuguese I met in Zürich speaks perfect Züritüütsch and French.
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  #71  
Old 16.03.2014, 09:41
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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In German Switzerland: most people from Iberia and Italy speak fluently the local language / dialect. Besides many are also fluent in French (Italians) and French / Italian (Iberians)!
Every Portuguese I met in Zürich speaks perfect Züritüütsch and French.
Anecdotal evidence?
I think everybody can or should accept they have a treaty with CH and that's it.
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  #72  
Old 16.03.2014, 09:59
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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There may be a treaty with certain countries which are exempt from this condition but stripping it back to its bottom line, it's still treating some EU countries, which are essentially in the same band and therefore equal, with unfair advantages.

Personally it wouldn't affect me as I'm now Swiss and I speak German / understand the dialect, plus I can still make sense when I'm tiddly (the real test!) but I can understand how some would view it as unfair.
Some EU countries are treated like non-Eu countries by a non-Eu country. How can that be unfair?
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  #73  
Old 16.03.2014, 10:01
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

If you want to draw some clues from existing C permit requirement for non EU :
Zurich canton - need Zertifikat Deutsch ( B1)
Zug canton - A2
Schwyz - A2

Thanks
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  #74  
Old 16.03.2014, 10:16
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Yeah...but some people have a talent for language learning and others don't. My German is OK and is definitely more than ordering a meal, but I was thinking of restarting classes in the autumn just to get my level up for job interviews and the like, plus I'd like to have a better level of written German for if and when we apply for citizenship.

The Volkshochschule has a little self-test on their website to figure out where your level is at before you sign up for classes. I really had to think about when to use dative and accusative and get the adjective endings correct - so my written level is probably in need of attention. But I got the feeling that passing A2 is not that easy unless you have taken classes.

I am in total agreement with the notion that you should try to learn the local language but changing the goalposts with the C permit and using it as yet another stick with which to beat foreigners is a bit poor.

Luckily we already got our C permits many years ago - but in the light of the Masseneinwanderung vote, I wonder if renewals of existing C permits will also eventually get tied to additional conditions like the language testing.

Cheers,
Nick

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You appear to have misunderstood or ignored the principle point I made.

Notwithstanding that it is harder to learn high German because it is not the language that is commonly spoken, we're still talking only about A2 level that you have five years to learn. We're talking about a very basic level of the language that a dyslexic orang-outang with a learning disorder would be able to grasp in that time, if they put in a minimum of effort to do so.

If they're not willing to do that, they can always just renew their B status. After all, there's not a Hell of a lot of difference in practical terms between B and C, except that the latter is for those who wish to have permanent residence - who want to settle down here in Switzerland indefinitely - and thus is more streamlined where it comes to renewal.

If you want to make a commitment like that, then being required to speak what is a very basic level of German is hardly an unreasonable demand. Indeed, the sense of entitlement that makes some feel they should be able to settle down in a country while not bothering to make the slightest effort at integration into that community is a much better example of unreasonable.

Ironically, those who seem to have this sense of entitlement tend to also be the first to complain about 'Mexicans not speaking English' or 'Pakistanis imposing their culture in the West', when back home.
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  #75  
Old 16.03.2014, 10:50
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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Yeah...but some people have a talent for language learning and others don't.
Some people have half a brain and others don't. I'm American, for crying out loud, and even I learned German to the b2/c1 level pretty easily.

I don't get why it's a problem for the Swiss to want people who apply for a permanent residence permit to speak the local language well enough to get by. If you can't speak it, stick with your B permit and be happy.
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  #76  
Old 16.03.2014, 11:17
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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Although at one time, long ago, my Flemish was at A2 level... I wonder if I still have my class certificates. Would that help? Apparently it's similar.
Ooh I've got one of those too ( unless I threw it away when we moved). It could be worth a try I guess given the similarities between the languages.
I's love to see the reaction of my friendly commune lady when she tried to read that.
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Old 16.03.2014, 14:24
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Hi All,

In canton BL, it happened to our friends (non-EU) that they were denied of a C-permit because the clerk addressed their child in German and the child was shy and didn’t reply.

Please excuse me for not being able to reveal more details.
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  #78  
Old 16.03.2014, 16:18
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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Hi All,

In canton BL, it happened to our friends (non-EU) that they were denied of a C-permit because the clerk addressed their child in German and the child was shy and didn’t reply.

Please excuse me for not being able to reveal more details.
This reminds me of the old Not the Nine o'clock news sketch, where Griff Rhys Jones was Constable Savage and was slightly over zealous in his work, including such gems as arresting someone for 'looking at me in a funny way'
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Old 16.03.2014, 16:27
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

Alot of bullshit
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Since I could not find any info on the site, just thought to let people know that EU, or at least the British, need a Start Deutsch 2 language certificate (like the one from Goethe Institute I imagine) to be eligible for the C Permit in Kanton Zürich. It was confirmed to me by the Migrationsamt office in Zürich yesterday.
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Old 16.03.2014, 17:57
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Re: New language requirement for EU, C Permit

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I am in total agreement with the notion that you should try to learn the local language but changing the goalposts with the C permit and using it as yet another stick with which to beat foreigners is a bit poor.

Luckily we already got our C permits many years ago - but in the light of the Masseneinwanderung vote, I wonder if renewals of existing C permits will also eventually get tied to additional conditions like the language testing.

Cheers,
Nick
Exactly, this is just harassment and has nothing to do with "integrating" foreigners.
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