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Old 08.03.2016, 14:51
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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this is not to say that men should not also be taking time off in connection with the birth of children, or that they should not also be responsible for managing kids' school schedules, or staying home when kids are sick, etc. but, in my experience, it remains a general societal expectation (not just in Switzerland but just about anywhere in the western world) that the mother handle these things.
It remains a general gender expectation; women do more housework - even if there are no children - and fellas think this is ok. "Problem? What problem?" I'm gobsmacked by how many men I know who can't / won't do chores / cooking and seem to think home fires keep themselves lit.

According to this research from Warwick, middle class high earners are less likely to notice there's a problem.

"until all men are willing to take on more domestic tasks, so allowing women to take on greater responsibility within the workplace, any hoped-for progress in gender equality is likely to stall.

Of course, the narrative in this thread is there is no problem but I notice all such posters are male; female commentators seem to have a different angle. Curious that no female voices agree. Male privilege much?

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Yes, it's illegal, and those flouting the law would be prosecuted in Switzerland.

So, no issue there to launch a protest march about, then.
I wonder how many female execs would dare risk their positions by complaining? The Law may in principle protect but reality is different. I doubt any HR folk out there would contribute to the discussion.

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... In Switzerland, there are legal controls to ensure that gender isn't used as a basis for discrimination, but it has and will forever continue to be a reason for differentiation.
Ah but the law says it's not allowed to be a problem so there can't possibly be a problem. Yet there's a problem. Brainhurt.

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It will never be equal because so many moms WANT to stay home and exercise their choice to do so. You can't force them to go to work. Men are far less likely to have a choice than women are in that regard.


If my wife decided to go to work tomorrow and her income would be the same as mine I would be a stay at home dad in a heartbeat. No second thoughts, no hesitation. Work sucks.
Double income, high earning professionals baulk at the costs of child care here in Switzerland; what hope is there for non high earning professionals? Sorry Ma, but you have to stay at home, so the cycle continues. Opportunity in Switzerland is pretty good but in no way perfect. All the more reason to lead from the front and approach inequalities head on, rather than pretending there's no problem.

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What if I told you that Switzerland is a democracy and women are for some reason allowed to participate in it. There is not some evil power designing the school system keeping women at home - the Swiss population thinks it's the way it should be. And again - in my experience is it especially the Swiss women who have a very strong opinion that a kid "needs a mother" and could not possibly go to some care facility during working hours.

I cannot see how you guys can deduct a women rights issue from that - there is no legal discrimination, just a lot of really conservative people who set up their society in conservative ways. Thats also why stay at home dads are very few - there is no law against it, it is just not accepted in Swiss culture.

It's not my personal opinion at all and I think it would be great if Switzerland would have a look how it could work differently, say for example in Scandinavia... but that's not a topic for international womens day but affects men just as much.
Yes, men are greatly affected but they're not the ones on the shitty end of the stick, so not much develops. Women tend to take jobs convenient to their home life necessities; men don't make that deal. A woman with kids can perhaps only do part time work - not because she's lazy or happy to spend all day drinking tea but because society still driven by patriarchal mores won't give it up. The men have it easier. And it's a problem for men whether they're aware of it or not.

I know a handful of women who chose not to work, despite being well educated, and they trot out the line of a mother's place is in the home and I say hurrah; they're exercising an opportunity which the wealth of their husbands affords. Good for them. It must be nice on Planet 1%, but for the rest of civilisation women have an uphill battle. Democracy and liberation are not the same.

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It makes me laugh whenever I hear a woman complaining about the lack of equality in Switzerland.
I bet you don't have many female friends in whose faces you laugh.

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why is my FB feed and every newspaper and website I've looked at over the weekend filled with rich, mostly white faces?
White women tend to have a voice and get noticed; they can use their experiences, wealth, reach and indeed privilege to help those around them, rather than just beat down all the time, which is utterly tiresome.

Men are awesome. Men have their own issues in society which need addressing but until we learn to do something about inequality - even if it is just considering why we have an International Women's Day - nothing will improve for either gender.
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  #182  
Old 08.03.2016, 14:56
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Great post, thank you.
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  #183  
Old 08.03.2016, 15:01
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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And, sadly, so are my previous posts.

Another year, another day of posh white people patting themselves on the backs.

smh
You obviously never took part in Women's day celebrations in Leicester or Loughborough- did you?

Uncle Max:

Double income, high earning professionals baulk at the costs of child care here in Switzerland; what hope is there for non high earning professionals? Sorry Ma, but you have to stay at home, so the cycle continues. Opportunity in Switzerland is pretty good but in no way perfect. All the more reason to lead from the front and approach inequalities head on, rather than pretending there's no problem.

I can assure you they baulk at the cost in the UK too. See what the price of full time nursery is in London! When our eldest went back to work after number one- her expenses practicall hate up all her extra earnings. But it did mean she could get back on the ladder- she knew she would never get back to the same level and up if she didn't. A choice. After number 2, and with extra responsibilities and being made a Partner, the only option was to employ someone full-time- to cover extra unexpected hours, and meetings, trains being late. And that is truly expensive. Again a choice- and yes, she is one of those white middle-class woman who made it to the top- and salary on par with the men at the same level.

But with regard to cost of childcare in Switzerland- like most things, it depends very much where you live. We may pay more taxes here than in Zug- but we have a system that truly allows all women to go back to work if they wish. Affordable before and afterschool and lunchtime care- with a full time place at nursery being subsidised by Canton, Commune and Employer- so the cost for parents is about 35CHF per day, per child. Our house in the UK is now a nursery, in the Midlands, and the fees are certainly more.
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  #184  
Old 08.03.2016, 15:05
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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You obviously never took part in Women's day celebrations in Leicester or Loughborough- did you?
Obviously.
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  #185  
Old 08.03.2016, 15:06
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Fully agree, but I simply have the same point I made a year ago - in my personal experience have I hardly witnessed any Swiss men forcing their women into traditional gender roles. Many of my generation (mid 30s) actually seem to want an active part in raising the kids... which is different from the generations before.


What I have however witnessed multiple times is Swiss women commenting on any life style choice that is the slightest off the Swiss 1950s norm. Putting the kids in child care and working on a career? How selfish of the mom. Non of them would say "How selfish of the dad". I know that women have a hard time in many parts of the world. I simply don't agree that this is the case in Switzerland today. There are no legal disadvantages at all. Women choosing family over their job have my full respect. Women who choose career have my full respect as well, but in my experience do not enjoy that same respect from the mothers brigade... either they are selfish for not reproducing or selfish for not taking "proper" care of the kids.


So if anything should the radical feminists work on the mindset of fellow women, but that would not be as easy as blaming men for everything in their lives.

Last edited by Treverus; 08.03.2016 at 15:22.
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  #186  
Old 08.03.2016, 15:07
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Happy Women's Day indeed.
This year it was my mother who called me to say Happy Women´s day...
Either I´m getting older, or she is getting younger...
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  #187  
Old 08.03.2016, 15:19
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

A guy sits in a taxi and sees his wife
entering a hotel with another man,and tells
the driver "do you want to earn $500 right
away?". The driver excitedly said "what
do I have to do?", "Bring my wife by the
hair out of that hotel, here's a picture of
her". After a while the driver is seen
dragging a woman by the hair,
while kicking and beating her and puts her
in the Taxi. And the husband says to him,
"this is not my wife" The driver replied
"Nooooo, this is mine, hold her for me. I'm
going to bring yours ..

women's day has started
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  #188  
Old 08.03.2016, 15:20
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

The idea that feminists are anti-men is ludicrous. I can't stand anti-men feminists- they give us all a bad name and don't help at all.

Most of my friends who have chosen to go back to work at some point and enjoyed a career have great men and many sons in their lives - and love men- well a certain kind of man who respects them on par (like mine). OH was always the main bread winner in our family- as he was qualified and starting his career when we met- and I didn't have qualifications, was unable to work due to a crippling accident then had 2 children quickly after recovering from such. That was the reason- not because he was a man, and I a woman. When I was ready- he was 100% behind me when I wanted to go back to full-time study and then when I got promotion very quickly from job to job. It was not easy due to his long hours and responsibilities, working nights and week-ends- but there was NO question in his mind- it was my time to shine, and he would hold the torch all the way.

My mother was born in 1915- but was always the main bread winner in our family in the 50s- and was a true inspiration. She and dad were also 100% behind me with my decision to go back to study and work (oh yes, and they were Swiss). My girls always say they were never so proud as the day they attended my Degree ceremony- and when I became 2nd in dept and then Head of Faculty at one of the local schools.

I've heard it say many times on this Forum- no point in going back to work as childcare will take most of my money. A choice- but if you don't get back on the ladder, you'll certainly not go up it either. A choice- but then don't complain either.
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  #189  
Old 08.03.2016, 15:27
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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The idea that feminists are anti-men is ludicrous. I can't stand anti-men feminists- they give us all a bad name and don't help at all..
I don't think these anti-men actually understand the spirit of feminism either. A bunch of it just see it as some kind of a trend.
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  #190  
Old 08.03.2016, 15:28
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Fully agree, but I simply have the same point I made a year ago - in my personal experience have I hardly witnessed any Swiss men forcing their women into traditional gender roles. Many of my generation (mid 30s) actually seem to want an active part in raising the kids... which is different from the generations before.


What I have however witnessed multiple times is Swiss women commenting on any life style choice that is the slightest off the Swiss 1950s norm. Putting the kids in child care and working on a career? How selfish of the mom. Non of them would say "How selfish of the dad". I know that women have a hard time in many parts of the world. I simply don't agree that this is the case in Switzerland today. There are no legal disadvantages at all. Women choosing family over their job have my full respect. Women who choose career have my full respect as well, but in my experience do not enjoy that same respect from the mothers brigade... either they are selfish for not reproducing or selfish for not taking "proper" care of the kids.


So if anything should the radical feminists work on the mindset of fellow women, but that would not be as easy as blaming men for everything in their lives.
How about both? Certainly the case here in my rural part of the world- despite the authorities working really hard to provide great child-care at very reasonalbe and subsidised cost- so i agree Treverus- women can truly be their worst enemies, and that of women who choose a different path. I have young friends in the UK where they have decided as a couple that mum would stay at home and take 90+ % of the child raising, homework, activities, housework, cooking, etc, etc - and he goes to work 100% not having to do anything much with the children and household- a choice- and to be honest, I don't think the figures for rural Switzerland are much worse than for rural UK- truly. A valid one for some- although, tbh, I don't think it is a good model for children growing up- and seeing this as the norm. I also have young women ex colleagues who have climber the ladder in their own career, with the husband happy to do all the childraising and household stuff too.
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  #191  
Old 08.03.2016, 15:28
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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So if anything should the radical feminists work on the mindset of fellow women, but that would not be as easy as blaming men for everything in their lives.
Care must be taken not to blame the oppressed for their oppression.

Blame is a charged term; but the hat fits when it comes to fair opportunity. Politics is the answer but there's such apathy or hysteria towards politics that it's easier to walk away... and get on with the vacuuming
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  #192  
Old 08.03.2016, 15:34
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Just because there are extreme groups who might have different ideas about raising awareness in an efficient way, does not mean the inequality issues do not exist. They exist, they hurt and mostly very quietly.
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  #193  
Old 08.03.2016, 15:35
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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How about both?
Both what? Career and kids? I honestly think this is possible in Switzerland today. Not as easy as in Scandinavian countries, but better than pretty much anywhere else on the planet. But, and that's the topic here, if you decide for yourself to focus your life on your career and are willing to make sacrifices for that career... well, you will very likely end up being the boss of the person who did not. And that's completely independent of the gender but simply a fact of life. If you decide to do both will you be able to have a decent salary and a decent amount of time with the kids. If you decide to prioritize family will you have the time, but not the career or money that comes with it. I never understood why this is even a discussion. But apparently is gender "equality" only reached when women get all of it combined... all the time with the kids and some fast lane career with all the perks but not the long hours.
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Old 08.03.2016, 15:36
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

... or in the case of most of my neighbours in the UK who were couldn't believe I would go to full time study when youngest started school- just have another child- no choice required then.
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  #195  
Old 08.03.2016, 15:38
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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... and get on with the vacuuming
I don't think my wife has ever used our Dyson... not even once. So here is an alternative to politics you can only run away from: Find a partner who shares your mind set and simply live your life the way you want. There are not that many forced marriages in Switzerland...
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  #196  
Old 08.03.2016, 15:42
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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...What I have however witnessed multiple times is Swiss women commenting on any life style choice that is the slightest off the Swiss 1950s norm. Putting the kids in child care and working on a career? How selfish of the mom. Non of them would say "How selfish of the dad". I know that women have a hard time in many parts of the world. I simply don't agree that this is the case in Switzerland today. There are no legal disadvantages at all. Women choosing family over their job have my full respect. Women who choose career have my full respect as well, but in my experience do not enjoy that same respect from the mothers brigade... either they are selfish for not reproducing or selfish for not taking "proper" care of the kids.


So if anything should the radical feminists work on the mindset of fellow women, but that would not be as easy as blaming men for everything in their lives.
We call it "mommy wars", it isn't particularly a Swiss thing.

And even women aren't a monolithic group, obviously just like men. There's a big divide between Northern and Southern feminists, for example. Different level of oppression or inequality is experienced by different groups of women.
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Old 08.03.2016, 15:49
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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I don't think my wife has ever used our Dyson... not even once. So here is an alternative to politics you can only run away from: Find a partner who shares your mind set and simply live your life the way you want. There are not that many forced marriages in Switzerland...
There is a high number of local-man-goes-wife-shopping to areas where they still live the old way because the local ladies don't feel like putting up with the old ways.

I don't think there is anything wrong with it, free market is free market, but the changes are pretty inevitable.

The Dyson was advertised last year for mother's day for a good present in our local papers and large posters.



While manspreading is fortunately not so common here, mansplaining totally is.
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  #198  
Old 08.03.2016, 15:57
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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......

While manspreading is fortunately not so common here, mansplaining totally is.


Manspreading was totally a shocker to me when it became a thing. Glad it isn't an issue here.
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Old 08.03.2016, 15:58
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Both what? Career and kids? I honestly think this is possible in Switzerland today. Not as easy as in Scandinavian countries, but better than pretty much anywhere else on the planet. But, and that's the topic here, if you decide for yourself to focus your life on your career and are willing to make sacrifices for that career... well, you will very likely end up being the boss of the person who did not. And that's completely independent of the gender but simply a fact of life. If you decide to do both will you be able to have a decent salary and a decent amount of time with the kids. If you decide to prioritize family will you have the time, but not the career or money that comes with it. I never understood why this is even a discussion. But apparently is gender "equality" only reached when women get all of it combined... all the time with the kids and some fast lane career with all the perks but not the long hours.
Men have all of it combined*, so I'm ok mate.

*Except men are being carried

Were the men to consider reducing their glory and increasing their share of the duty I'm sure the results would benefit everyone. The bosses would still be bosses and the natural order maintained. Those who want to be top Alpha sacrifice a lot of things in many ways but take all the glory and if that's at someone else's expense then it's a hollow glory. The greedy would not understand, thus we have a world where the greedy are rewarded and ruin it for the rest.

Financial might is right

The incline is greater for those at the bottom. Worth remembering honour ought to be a factor, a noblesse oblige if you will. Where honour is considered weak, we end up with the society in which Banksters et al dump on society - and women always come off worse. Who could blame women who ignore feminisms ideals? It's bloody hard leading from the front and if society (viz. this thread) can't be bothered how the hell should one person be expected to stand up to it?

Then again, as a chap I am probably missing the point that human nature can not be changed and women like being submissive and us fellas should just carry on swinging from the trees and having a riot.
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Old 08.03.2016, 16:00
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Different level of oppression or inequality is experienced by different groups of women.
So: What inequality do you see in Switzerland today? I do not mean this as a rhetorical question, but actually mean it. I know a couple of "career women" who focus on their work, did not study what was fun but matched their career plan and are willing to work more hours than say for example me. All of them made a faster and better career than their male counterparts. Since several happen to be not Swiss but from cultures where talking about salary is not a taboo can I even tell you that they earn easily as much as their male counterparts.


All the examples I personally know worked really hard for it, but being a woman did not seem to be a handicap, but rather an asset - most Swiss companies lack female leaders and are aware of it. Many would love to improve the situation but struggle to find women willing to do it. On a side note probably making my opinion even less popular: Same seems true for being non-caucasian... against all the stereotypes do I think that corporate Switzerland actually would like to be more diverse, but unlike certain PC countries does not do it for its own sake - but if a person shows that they really want that career seems an international background far less of a problem as many whining posts on here pretend.


Side note: I am not a workaholic and personally prefer to have a decent work life balance over more salary that I then have no time to spend... but that's some of my experiences I made working here...
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