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  #221  
Old 08.03.2016, 17:36
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Stickers seen today around Zurich's public transport ticket machines (Men to pay 20% extra on IWD justified by their 20% higher salaries...)

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  #222  
Old 08.03.2016, 17:42
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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because women are perceived to be worth only worth 77% of a man.
Or because being the primary child carer can damage your career.
  • Taking a few years out to have kids, and thus amassing less experience, is bad for your earning potential.
  • Doing shorter hours (and no overtime) because you have to do school runs, doesn't help your career prospects.
  • Choosing a work model where your family comes first is not going to help your salary down the road.
It's really not complicated. No grand conspiracy. And doesn't involve self-pitying nonsense like "women are perceived to be worth only worth 77% of a man".
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  #223  
Old 08.03.2016, 17:49
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Then you're talking about nurture, not nature.

Indeed

However, what is being questioned is why this is the case, whether it is the case all the time and the overall myth that this is all down to some conspiracy by the penis-wielding oppressors here, who live charmed and privileged lives where everything works our way.

That is indeed what I mean by denying

An ancestor of mine fought for the Borgias at Forlě in 1500. I suspect that is as relevant to our lives today as many historical anecdotes that are regularly trotted out on this subject.

those exemples were my own mother and grand-mother- and their influence on how my mother and me, and then my daughters, turned out. How you compare this to 16C history- just shows what cobblers you are spouting here
My mother was born in 1915, me in 1951 nd my daughters in 73 and 75- hardly medieval history, is it? Are you married I wonder, do you have daughters I wonder, or grand-daughters. What do you wish for them?

I hope mine will have choice, true choice- providing it is truly their choice, that will be fine with me. But if they choose to work hard, make sacrifices, get to the top of their career, I'd expect them to earn the same as my grandsons.

My mil was not an easy woman, and I could have happily strangled her a few times- but I shall be eternally grateful that she always worked and taught her sons that cooking, cleaning, looking after sibblings, clearing and cleaning their own rooms and ironing their own school clothes, as well as strive for an academic education and careers- was expected and the norm. Thanks Kay.
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  #224  
Old 08.03.2016, 17:55
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

It is amusing how it gets explained to girls that no matter what - they are making less because: they will for sure meet a nice guy who will need to earn more to take care of his girl who is, of course, home being a mommy.

Like that scenario always happens?

At the end - the girls are stuck with less pay, no matter of what the future might bring.
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  #225  
Old 08.03.2016, 17:58
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Furthermore, many of my female contemporaties, starting from primary schools through to university, with the same or similar opportunities, have taken very different routes. Why? Am I really that unusual amongst the genetically XX, was I very lucky or is something else at play here?

Given the industry you choose to work in (or did anyone oppress you in that choice?): I'd guess greed.


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let's go for a drink.
Yup.
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  #226  
Old 08.03.2016, 17:59
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Stickers seen today around Zurich's public transport ticket machines (Men to pay 20% extra on IWD justified by their 20% higher salaries...)



You are a couple of pages late for that one...
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  #227  
Old 08.03.2016, 18:04
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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It is amusing how it gets explained to girls that no matter what - they are making less because: they will for sure meet a nice guy who will need to earn more to take care of his girl who is, of course, home being a mommy.

Like that scenario always happens?

At the end - the girls are stuck with less pay, no matter of what the future might bring.
'Amusing' isn't (!) the the word I'd choose- but I see what you mean. Indeed.

Last edited by Odile; 08.03.2016 at 18:25.
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  #228  
Old 08.03.2016, 18:14
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Given the industry you choose to work in (or did anyone oppress you in that choice?): I'd guess greed.

Yup.
After that, the first round is on you

I know you get it, but just on that point: of course the sum of one's experiences shape the person one becomes. If you put 100 newborns through similar experiences, most will be shaped in the same way; though of course there will be exceptions. Using the exceptions to deny that there is an issue, however, is a fallacy.

Last edited by Veltliner; 08.03.2016 at 18:30. Reason: typo
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  #229  
Old 08.03.2016, 18:21
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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After that, the first round is on you

It always is... one of the many downsides being a guy I guess.
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  #230  
Old 08.03.2016, 18:24
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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It always is... one of the many downsides being a guy I guess.
I'm very modern... you were just rude
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  #231  
Old 08.03.2016, 18:56
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Maybe you could better argue when there are facts on the table?

Depending on which criterion is considered to be wages differ sometimes low, sometimes very strong. The differences can be explained only partly by the fact that women are paid less for comparable work than men. Ins weight also reveals that women work more often in sectors with low wages, rarely move up to senior managers, and do more part-time work.
people should stop using stats as facts for e-penis measuring.

you can show anything you want with stats. a fact is e.g. FGM or honour beatings/killings of women. you can count the incidences. even that is already dangerous because you can mess with definitions of those things to make the count higher/lower.

the article you show is a bit iffy. the focus is on variables individually and citing the highest one (39%) in the headline. thats strange, why not incorporate all the variables at once? i smell simpsons' paradox.

all it says in the text is that they found that 2/3 of the overall difference is explained by those factors. doesnt even say what that overall difference was from that study, but they cite 19.4% from another study. lets take that 20%. one third is 6% overall wage difference between men and women that is unexplained by the studied factors. or to put it as the article: women make 6% less than men purely because they are women and not men. yes, that, or some other hidden factor.

just, nevermind stats on complex and controversial subjects. too much bias and propaganda. use common sense. all else being equal, having boobs is gonna give you the edge both in finding work and getting a higher pay. certainly not a whopping 39% lower salary, that only happens in stats.
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  #232  
Old 08.03.2016, 19:57
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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...What is the 'spirit of feminism' though? To say it is equality would be to ignore that from second wave feminism on, the emphasis went from 'equality' to one of 'choice'.
I don't think it implies ignoring the emphasis of the second wave. See, there you don't even get it. Try again better next time.
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  #233  
Old 08.03.2016, 20:05
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Well they dont even get equal wages here so what do you hope to get in this country
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  #234  
Old 08.03.2016, 20:34
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Some joy round the world:

https://www.facebook.com/greenpeaceu...2961341209229/

and sistas doing it for themselves, the wonderful Annie Lennox adn Aretha: wow

https://youtu.be/drGx7JkFSp4

Last edited by Odile; 08.03.2016 at 20:55.
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  #235  
Old 08.03.2016, 20:56
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Or because being the primary child carer can damage your career.
  • Taking a few years out to have kids, and thus amassing less experience, is bad for your earning potential.
  • Doing shorter hours (and no overtime) because you have to do school runs, doesn't help your career prospects.
  • Choosing a work model where your family comes first is not going to help your salary down the road.
It's really not complicated. No grand conspiracy. And doesn't involve self-pitying nonsense like "women are perceived to be worth only worth 77% of a man".
How about the women who either don't have children or are not taking "several years" to raise them, but return after 14 weeks of maternity leave, if not sooner? I know more such examples than I know women who didn't go back to work for years. In fact I don't know a single woman who has stayed away from work for more than 6 months. Yet the salary differences are there. Surely 14 weeks once or twice in a lifetime can't be all that bad given at least most men here are away from work much longer for military service? (and no, I certainly don't even want to start a discussion of military vs maternity, despite being super popular in CH)

I do agree that the time away from work is PARTLY an explanation for differing salary levels - overall that is. But if a woman and a man end up on the same job on the same level, they apparently have the same qualification, otherwise they wouldn't be there. Consequently, it doesn't matter whether or not the woman took time away to raise a family - otherwise they wouldn't both be in the same job. There is nothing that would explain a salary difference in such cases, isn't there. The comparison needs to be apples-apples and not apples-oranges.

It is also an assumption that women do shorter hours, because many don't, independent of family. They just organise themselves differently. Yes they may leave at 5 because they need to pick up the kids (and apparently, it's too difficult for the father to do the same at the very least every now and then - but that's a different story), but I know of many who then work from 8 or 9pm till well after midnight. That is surely enough to catch up on the supposedly missed time. And most importantly, fewer hours don't mean less productivity.
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  #236  
Old 08.03.2016, 21:04
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

As senior manager, and with a Deputy Head who was also a woman with kids- we had to, time and again- explain to female staff that they couldn't constantly take time off because children were ill- and had to share this responsibility with their OH/partner. They often said that 'their husband's job was too important for them to do so- and wouldn't like it and would ask them to stop working if they had to take time off for this' Daughter is having same problem with her staff now, 30 years later!

When children we small, we always (that is us in partnerhship) made sure we had a third cover option- so that neither of us would have to take time off for minor illnesses, unless in extreme circumstances, and in turn. As a couple, together, that is your responsability- together. And if on your own- you need to put an emergency system in place.

Last edited by Odile; 08.03.2016 at 21:23.
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  #237  
Old 08.03.2016, 21:11
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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It always is... one of the many downsides being a guy I guess.
Hey Female People,
Treverus has ended the sufferance with one free Gespritzter!
C'mon man, arrange another Talacker midweek drinks
This thread has legs.

Last edited by Uncle Max; 11.03.2016 at 12:39. Reason: typo
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  #238  
Old 08.03.2016, 21:14
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Hey Female People,
Treverus has endend the sufferance with one free Gespritzter!
C'mon man, arrange another Talacker midweek drinks
This thread has legs.
Hey! I manipulated him to agree with my feminine wiles.

Women >>> men

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  #239  
Old 08.03.2016, 21:40
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Hey Female People,
Treverus has endend the sufferance with one free Gespritzter!
C'mon man, arrange another Talacker midweek drinks
This thread has legs.
Sorry, went to the gym and just saw this. Im in the center now and i'd be at the Talacker in five minutes if you are in. And the first pitcher of the legendary Talacker death juice is on me.
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  #240  
Old 08.03.2016, 21:57
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Spontaneity is dead. TIS
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