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  #241  
Old 08.03.2016, 21:57
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Treverus, I feel she's just not that into you.

But pitchers of Death Juice are always tempting. Get it on the calendar for next week
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  #242  
Old 08.03.2016, 22:06
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Treverus, I feel she's just not that into you.

But pitchers of Death Juice are always tempting. Get it on the calendar for next week
Veltliner isn't in Zurich, she lives in my hood... But I'm sure she'd join to meet a legend like you...
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  #243  
Old 09.03.2016, 10:03
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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those exemples were my own mother and grand-mother- and their influence on how my mother and me, and then my daughters, turned out. How you compare this to 16C history- just shows what cobblers you are spouting here
It compares because the lives of those who lived fifty or a hundred years ago are, unless you make an actual case for it, as relevant as those who lived five hundred years ago. You might think that cobblers, but then I might just consider your opinion just as cobblers.
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Are you married I wonder, do you have daughters I wonder, or grand-daughters. What do you wish for them?
What relevance is that? Does marriage suddenly make someone better equipped to hold an opinion or see how things are?
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At the end - the girls are stuck with less pay, no matter of what the future might bring.
Be careful - there's a difference between pointing out that women earn less on average and then adopting language that all women are doomed to earn less, as an absolute.

Of course, I'll have to admit that Switzerland is a special case. It is a phenomenally sexist country (even Italy is less so, IMO). I was taken aback when I first saw it first hand here.
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I don't think it implies ignoring the emphasis of the second wave. See, there you don't even get it. Try again better next time.
Cute, dismissed my point without addressing it, then added a bit of an ad hominem.

Yes, many supporters of modern Western feminism to tend to ignore the second, plus, wave, which moved away from 'equality' to something that simply chose to cherry pick in favour of 'choice'. It doesn't even take much to demonstrate this. For example:



Let me know when was the last time post second wave feminism was willing to sacrifice, and take the bad with the good, in the interests of equality.

You might want to read up on the subject a bit.
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How about the women who either don't have children or are not taking "several years" to raise them, but return after 14 weeks of maternity leave, if not sooner? I know more such examples than I know women who didn't go back to work for years. In fact I don't know a single woman who has stayed away from work for more than 6 months. Yet the salary differences are there. Surely 14 weeks once or twice in a lifetime can't be all that bad given at least most men here are away from work much longer for military service? (and no, I certainly don't even want to start a discussion of military vs maternity, despite being super popular in CH)
Yet if the child is sick, who's going to be taking time off work? Who's going to be going home before 8pm because of the kids? Or come in after 8am for the same reason? It's a bit naive to think that a child's impact on your career will be 14 weeks, if you're the one doing the bulk of the child care, don't you think?
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I do agree that the time away from work is PARTLY an explanation for differing salary levels - overall that is. But if a woman and a man end up on the same job on the same level, they apparently have the same qualification, otherwise they wouldn't be there.
It is partly an explanation for differing salary levels, but let's be honest, how much would they differ were it addressed? Is that not the scope of the discussion, to solve the problem, not to bellyache over it?

So if child care represents 90% of the problem, you would prefer not to address that because 10% isn't addressed?
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It is also an assumption that women do shorter hours, because many don't, independent of family. They just organise themselves differently. Yes they may leave at 5 because they need to pick up the kids (and apparently, it's too difficult for the father to do the same at the very least every now and then - but that's a different story), but I know of many who then work from 8 or 9pm till well after midnight. That is surely enough to catch up on the supposedly missed time.
Well, at this stage we've gone from anecdotal evidence to you just making stuff up to suit your argument, TBH.
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And most importantly, fewer hours don't mean less productivity.
Must try that line in my next performance review and see what raise I get...
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  #244  
Old 09.03.2016, 10:22
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Bitter, bitter.

Yes, cobblers. My grand-mother had a direct influence on my mother, who had a very direct influence on me, and my daughters too, who were in their 30s when she died. So a direct influence on today- professional women in today's world- not the flipping 16C...

And yes, seeing your own wife and daughters being paid much less and having to fight much harder to get top jobs in a man's world - does change your opinion- truly. Women, especially those who combine children and a career- do indeed seem to be much much better at multi-tasking and getting the job done well in less time. You don't need to believe me though. You just have to be ultra efficient- that's the only way to make it work - and it does.

As for this:

`Yet if the child is sick, who's going to be taking time off work? Who's going to be going home before 8pm because of the kids? Or come in after 8am for the same reason? It's a bit naive to think that a child's impact on your career will be 14 weeks, if you're the one doing the bulk of the child care, don't you think?`

You tell me- who? You? Or at least 50% at the emergency stage. And then, would YOU with your partner, put a support structure in place for rest of the time? Or leave it to your wife or partner (as most men still do, yes, even now, not in the 16C..). Take something like chickenpox, the child will want ONE OF the parents to be there in the accute phase, but as they need 2 weeks off until spots heal, then another trustworthy person can take over the care- and it doesn't need to be one of the parents. So yes, whether you have been in this situtation (eg married or in a partnership with children)... you just cannot be aware what it is like, sorry.

Hey leave you to it. Very aware that nothing will change your mind- and it is a beautiful winter wonderland day out there.

Last edited by Odile; 09.03.2016 at 10:38.
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  #245  
Old 09.03.2016, 10:39
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Bitter, bitter.
Are you really incapable of arguing without resorting to ad hominems?
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Yes, cobblers. My grand-mother had a direct influence on my mother, who had a very direct influence on me, and my daughters too, who were in their 30s when she died. So a direct influence on today- professional women in today's world- not the flipping 16C...
Is your grandmother deciding what women get paid? If her input was her influence on you and this ties back to women getting lower salaries, then essentially you're telling us that you have no one to blame than yourself if you have a lower salary (and your grandmother).
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And yes, seeing your own wife and daughters being paid much less and having to fight much harder to get top jobs in a man's world - does change your opinion- truly.
Should an appeal to emotion change my opinion? No, unless I'm only interested in self interest - you see, I don't have a daughter, but I do have a son, so by your logic, I should really reject all of what you are saying, given he lives in a world where he will be discriminated against in endless areas, such as reproductive and parental rights, sentencing, divorce law, military service and so on - and just concern myself with his interests.

See where pulling out an argument such as do you have 'daughters' is actually quite dumb?
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  #246  
Old 09.03.2016, 10:40
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Bitter, bitter.

Yes, cobblers. My grand-mother had a direct influence on my mother, who had a very direct influence on me, and my daughters too, who were in their 30s when she died. So a direct influence on today- professional women in today's world- not the flipping 16C...

Talking of influencing the next generation... I hope your grand mother in law was having a direct influence on your Father in law. All too often the talk is of women influencing women, which is great, but if you put the lever on the other side you'll get at least as much lifting power.


I grew up in a progressive family, my sister and I were both expected to be able to cook wash and clean BUT my sister wasn't allowed to play in the workshop unsupervised as I was, but would dearly have loved to. We talked about it years later, my parents confessed that they were worried that she might have had an accident (you get less camels when you marry off a daughter with a scar on her face ).


Progress is slow if it happens over generations, but it will happen.
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  #247  
Old 09.03.2016, 13:08
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Well, at this stage we've gone from anecdotal evidence to you just making stuff up to suit your argument, TBH.

Must try that line in my next performance review and see what raise I get...
Dude, if you knew where I worked and what I was doing there exactly, you wouldn't be saying that I do know and I do see it, every day.

But I'll leave it at that cause there's clearly no point.
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  #248  
Old 09.03.2016, 14:05
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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But I'll leave it at that cause there's clearly no point.
How about you leave it because you're an anonymous stranger on the Internet who could be talking out of their arse, just as easily as telling the truth?
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  #249  
Old 09.03.2016, 14:22
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

JagW- now have a grandson and a grand-daughter- and they are growing up in the UK, with 2 progressive parents who both work at a simillar top level of management- and yet, the expectations and nurture, not necessarily in the home but from outside, other parents and grand-parents, other children, at school etc- are still very different to her brother's. She also happens to be the most beautiful blond with blue eyes- which makes the outside 'nurturing' influences even greater, would you believe, despite the fact she plays rugby in a club every Sunday - and despite one of the coaches being female.

Denying this is just plain daft.
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  #250  
Old 09.03.2016, 14:32
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Who'd have thought it but yesterday was also "International Pegging Day". Hell of a coincidence don't you think?
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  #251  
Old 09.03.2016, 14:32
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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How about you leave it because you're an anonymous stranger on the Internet who could be talking out of their arse, just as easily as telling the truth?


Pot. Kettle.


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  #252  
Old 09.03.2016, 14:41
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Yesterday I thanked (my now deceased mil) for teaching her boys to cook, do their own ironing, and generally share chores with their sister.

And last night, I suddenly remembered the next stage... she encouraged the boys to go on and study...

and told her talented daughter (the eldest of the 3)- that she would not be allowed to go to Art College, despite being so talented- as she had to stay and help in the tailoring shop to bring money in so the boys could study in her 70s now, but she has never forgiven her mother, and father, for that.

She and her OH then did 'the same but different' - sent their son to Public School (in the UK not public at all) and the daughter to the local comprehensive All my nieces are stay-at-home mums, and my nephews have stay-at-home wives - in the UK now - not in the 16C, and not in CH either.
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  #253  
Old 09.03.2016, 14:41
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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JagW- now have a grandson and a grand-daughter- and they are growing up in the UK, with 2 progressive parents who both work at a simillar top level of management- and yet, the expectations and nurture, not necessarily in the home but from outside, other parents and grand-parents, other children, at school etc- are still very different to her brother's. She also happens to be the most beautiful blond with blue eyes- which makes the outside 'nurturing' influences even greater, would you believe, despite the fact she plays rugby in a club every Sunday - and despite one of the coaches being female.

Denying this is just plain daft.

Agreed, there are LOTS of forces at play, both within and without the home. Women, girls DO face disadvantages, but they are not the only ones to face challenges. For my generation, there were lots of women who deemed themselves as liberated, in the sense that both should cook, clean, sew and care for the children. Few were willing to assume the responsibility of primary breadwinner even when their job was best suited to that role (I only know of one case). Perhaps my sample is too small, but here in Switzerland, not just the men but also many of the women seem to have got the wrong end of the stick. Demanding access and choice is one thing, true equality is another.
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  #254  
Old 09.03.2016, 14:43
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Very aware that nothing will change your mind-.
Look who's talking...
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  #255  
Old 09.03.2016, 14:48
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Both of my wife's parents were stay-at-home parents!

Tom
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  #256  
Old 09.03.2016, 14:58
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

What exactly is the issue with providing anecdotes to illustrate a point being made? Most evidence is likely to be anecdotal - this is a discussion forum. Where folk, you know, discuss stuff.
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  #257  
Old 09.03.2016, 15:03
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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What exactly is the issue with providing anecdotes to illustrate a point being made? Most evidence is likely to be anecdotal - this is a discussion forum. Where folk, you know, discuss stuff.


Nothing wrong with it, the problem is the internet: If's someone's personal anecdote contradicts another's point of view--it will be deemed an outlier and irrelevant.

If another personal anecdote supports one's point of view, it commonly builds an absolute truth in their brain through confirmation bias, paving the way for personal attacks and the legendary godwin.
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Old 09.03.2016, 15:06
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Nothing wrong with it, the problem is the internet: If's someone's personal anecdote contradicts another's point of view--it will be deemed an outlier and irrelevant.

If another personal anecdote supports one's point of view, it commonly builds an absolute truth in their brain through confirmation bias, paving the way for personal attacks and the legendary godwin.
Never trust a vegetarian is the lesson we take from Godwin
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Old 09.03.2016, 15:06
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Dude, if you knew where I worked and what I was doing there exactly, you wouldn't be saying that I do know and I do see it, every day.

But I'll leave it at that cause there's clearly no point.
I read your previous post.
I'm afraid it's just your experience and your interpretation!
I'm not denying what you said is really happening- But don't make a generalization out of it...
Especially that others have different experiences contradicting yours.

I can share samples:
-I know a male colleague always taking time off for the kid, taking him to emergencies at night, etc... while he's working and the wife unemployed.
-I know female having high salary than male, for same role
-I know female colleagues doing anything to stay away from work for maternity for ever without valid medical reason, bad attitude)but...
-I also know another one who kept the minimum time off work, been there until last 2 weeks of due date, and back a few months later
-I know other educating their girl same as the boys
-I also know someone overprotecting the boy and impeding his development (in my humble opinion)
-I know female colleague blatantly cheating with hours, stamping way more than she actually does
-I know another female staying short hours same as...
-Another male colleague!
-Some female colleagues don't have the technical level to do their job, yet they are protected, helped and even promoted faster since the manager is somehow pitying/protecting them.
-Also, clearly some female colleagues are getting all the best out of male colleagues due to their physical aspect, and flirtatious attitude.

-I usually do lot of hours myself, male (yes not when on the forum, but there are several projects sometimes activity is peak from 16h to 19h, sometimes at other time...)

-Also, I am always earlier and later at work than any of my female colleagues

It's really depends make and female, we are all equally different...

Bottom Line, even if in average women's salary might be lower, this false rat race for equality is also a myth: men also have different salary between each others. Profile, age, negotiation skills, studies, luck, etc... are also part of that.

Again i'm not denying that lower female salaries might have happened and that it might still be happening, but there are other factors at play.

You on the other hand seems to be focused on stereotypes, and playing the victim. Which at some point does not help the female cause!

And i'm not ashamed to admit but some female colleagues have negotiated much higher salary than mine, same role and I have more experience. Can I play the victim? No I'm learning from my mistake and will do better next time.
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Old 09.03.2016, 15:08
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Few were willing to assume the responsibility of primary breadwinner even when their job was best suited to that role (I only know of one case).
I also can think of only one case (one of my sisters).

Tom
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