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  #281  
Old 09.03.2016, 16:50
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

I found this article in the DM amusing... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...es-insane.html

I think she raises some very salient points on "virtue signalling" and "morality mobbing"... we see it on the forum enough!
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  #282  
Old 09.03.2016, 16:56
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Of course it is MY experience, just like yours is YOUR experience. I did not say that MY experience is the absolute truth.


I questioned the claim that all differences in salaries can be explained away simply because women have children, take years off work, therefore stall in their careers and then work reduced hours, which all explains their lower average salaries. And that is not correct. Not all women do any, let alone all, of this, YET their salaries in the same job with the exact same responsibility are often lower than that of men, and yes, I see this every day. There are different factors that contribute to this inequality, some of which are indeed discriminatory with no rational explanation.
So just to be clear, as I brought up many of the arguments you mention:
- Do I believe that there is no sexism or discrimination in Switzerland? Absolutely not. I know it exists and I believe you that you see it every day. In some areas is it stronger than others and I guess you are in the stronger area, whatever business you work in.
- I do however reject the claims that women earn 20 or 30% less and it's all just because their sex is oppressed. For the arguments given do I think that the vast majority can indeed be explained.


To put this into simple terms:
- I am pretty sure that for example kindergarden employees are badly paid
- I am pretty sure that most people working there are female
- I am pretty sure that most knew about the low salary before they chose the education to work there
- I am pretty sure that as long as women are willing to work for the salaries paid there, little will change...


I guess we all can agree on the facts. The question is weather the bad pay of kindergardeners is discrimination. Most feminists I have met would claim so and I simply cannot see the point... lots of jobs that people want to work at are badly paid. But men seem to never blame it on their gender, but simply choose the less desirable but better paid options then.
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  #283  
Old 09.03.2016, 17:04
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Hence my comments about nature and nurture. There are extremely good cultural reasons why women choose certain professions and not others. One of our young neighbours did an apprenticeship as a builder- but in the end she gave up- as the daily discrimination of every kind was intolerable. Just one of many many exemples. But yes, it can go the other way too. OH had a male midwife- and his life was not easy either.

However, most of the discussion here has been about the same job, at the same level, in the same business, be it in banking, business, medicine, law, etc, etc. I am fully aware that in medicine many brilliant female doctors do CHOOSE to become GPs and do not go on to become specialists/Consultants- for all sorts of reasons. But those women who do wish to become specialists/Consultants- be they mothers or not - do face a real battle to get there in a male dominated field, and have to 'prove' themselves in a way few men have to. Believe me or not- I really don't care. And that in the UK too- but probably even worse in Switerland.

The scools I taught in in the UK all addressed those issues in PSE (personal and social education) and there were many activities organised to help redress the situation- including work experience in jobs which were traditionally 'female or male' in the past, and still now- in a way it is not addressed here in Switzerland.

'men seem to never blame it on their gender,' - does anyone here blame anything on their gender by pointing out the reality of the situation? I don't see this at all in this thread. Explaining the situation and the reasons why is not 'blaming' at all. I blame my car accident for not getting my studying and career off the ground earlier- not the fact I am female. I am one of the lucky ones who had incredibly inspiring parents, including my mother, and who chose to share my life with an incredibly inspiring, open and supportive man- who gave me 100% support when my time came, and quickly went up the ranks- so ceertainly not blaming you chaps- but finding it hard to believe your denial, in the 21st C.
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  #284  
Old 09.03.2016, 17:11
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Who'd have thought it but yesterday was also "International Pegging Day". Hell of a coincidence don't you think?
I had to go to Urban Dictionary. Thanks.

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I found this article in the DM amusing... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...es-insane.html

I think she raises some very salient points on "virtue signalling" and "morality mobbing"... we see it on the forum enough!
I feel so dirty following that link. The self-loathing, snipey author reminds me of several Top Columnists on EF; loves to live in high dudgeon yet offers nothing soulful.

(usual present company exemptions etc. etc.)
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  #285  
Old 09.03.2016, 17:18
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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I found this article in the DM amusing... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...es-insane.html

I think she raises some very salient points on "virtue signalling" and "morality mobbing"... we see it on the forum enough!
The article was interesting and true (like "As we all know, anyone who dares question the received wisdom these days had better be ready for a public battering on social media"), are you sure it was written by a woman?

PS: probably she was getting 30% less pay for it than if it was written by a male... #FOTD! #TIEFFPF*
*ThisIsEnglishForumFullProofFact
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  #286  
Old 09.03.2016, 17:28
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Switzerland comes 56th out of 59 places. Must do better!

Of the 207 companies surveyed in Switzerland only six have a Chairman of the Board and seven have a female CEO. Of all the directors 9.1% are female, in the management 8.3% are women.
Of the 59 countries with more than ten companies surveyed, Switzerland has with respect to the representation of women in management a rank 56th.
In the proportion of female board, it looks for Switzerland a little better, here it is ranked 42nd.

http://www.ey.com/CH/de/Newsroom/New...uentag-Schweiz
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  #287  
Old 09.03.2016, 17:39
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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I questioned the claim that all differences in salaries can be explained away simply because women have children, take years off work, therefore stall in their careers and then work reduced hours, which all explains their lower average salaries. And that is not correct. Not all women do any, let alone all, of this, YET their salaries in the same job with the exact same responsibility are often lower than that of men, and yes, I see this every day.
Even if one were to accept that women's role (perceived and actual) as primary child carers is almost certainly the principle reason for this gap, but it would be foolish to suggest that it is the only reason or that it is limited to reduced hours, career breaks or the like. For example, provider sympathy has long been observed afforded married men with families higher salaries than were they single (this too is tied to women's perceived role as primary child carers - both sides of the same coin).

Even then, other issues and prejudices would likely come into play - no one is denying this. However, the question is, is women's role as primary child carers the principle reason for the gap? If so and you want to address this gap would addressing this not be the best way to address the issue, even if there are other reasons?
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There are different factors that contribute to this inequality, some of which are indeed discriminatory with no rational explanation.
So far we've heard precious little by way of what the 'real' reason for this inequality is, other than some vague innuendo that it is part of some great patriarchal conspiracy. Care to finally tell us what the 'real' reason is that so eclipses women's perceived, role as child carers in society?
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  #288  
Old 09.03.2016, 17:43
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Switzerland comes 56th out of 59 places. Must do better!

Of the 207 companies surveyed in Switzerland only six have a Chairman of the Board and seven have a female CEO. Of all the directors 9.1% are female, in the management 8.3% are women.
Of the 59 countries with more than ten companies surveyed, Switzerland has with respect to the representation of women in management a rank 56th.
In the proportion of female board, it looks for Switzerland a little better, here it is ranked 42nd.

http://www.ey.com/CH/de/Newsroom/New...uentag-Schweiz
Hm the source seems to be not full proof, for me...

See they are making this type of statements "Want to increase your margin?
An organization with 30 percent female leaders could add up to 6 percentage points to its net margin.1"

1. refers to some fancy study made by serious organisation on a sample of 3 cavemen into their laboratory...


See if only they'd be commenting based on skills that these leaders are using to reach that financial advantage, instead of emphasizing on "gender" without any argument...
It fact it becomes positive discrimination towards women, which again, is not helping them, especially if the one currently in charge are males...

So just because there are female leaders the net margin will increase? Is that because female are attracted by money or something? (uncalled for, same as that bland statement)
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  #289  
Old 09.03.2016, 17:45
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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their salaries in the same job with the exact same responsibility are often lower than that of men, and yes, I see this every day.
So why on earth would anyone ever hire a man over a women if the woman is doing the same job for less money?

It makes NO sense at all.

Tom
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  #290  
Old 09.03.2016, 17:51
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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So why on earth would anyone ever hire a man over a women if the woman is doing the same job for less money?

It makes NO sense at all.

Tom
Because the Bosses Wife wouldn't like it?
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  #291  
Old 09.03.2016, 17:53
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

It doesn't, you are right. And THAT is part of the problem- it's not called 'the old boys' school network' for nothing- and is still, to a large extent, self-perpetuating. Look at Cameron's Cabinet, for instance.

To conclude as I won't waste anymore of my time and sanity- I am delighted and proud that I shared my life, from my very early days and still now- with fantastic men who have never seen women as a threat, accepted that there are inequalities, both form nature and nurture, and given 100% to the women in their lives, be they partners, wives, daughters, sisters, friends or colleagues- and with fabulous and inspiring women who have never accepted 'no' as an answer to their dreams and aspirations. As a grandmother, as grandparents, we will be there to give 100% support to our grandchildren, girls and boys- to do the same- and ensure they do not let bitter and inadequate men (and women- they do exist I agree) - stop them on their way.
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  #292  
Old 09.03.2016, 17:53
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Switzerland comes 56th out of 59 places. Must do better!

Of the 207 companies surveyed in Switzerland only six have a Chairman of the Board and seven have a female CEO. Of all the directors 9.1% are female, in the management 8.3% are women.
Of the 59 countries with more than ten companies surveyed, Switzerland has with respect to the representation of women in management a rank 56th.
In the proportion of female board, it looks for Switzerland a little better, here it is ranked 42nd.

http://www.ey.com/CH/de/Newsroom/New...uentag-Schweiz
EPIC!
Even better:
They brag along wonderful statements:
"Diversity is about differences. Each of us is different, and at EY we value and respect individual differences. At EY, we think broadly about differences; they include background, education, gender, ethnicity, nationality, generation, age, working and thinking styles, religious background, sexual orientation, ability and technical skills. There are also differences according to service line, sector and function.
Inclusiveness is about leveraging these differences to achieve better business results. It is about creating an environment where all of our people feel, and are, valued, where they are able to bring their differences to work each day, and where they contribute their personal best in every encounter."

And then they claim "An organization with 30 percent female leaders could add up to 6 percentage points to its net margin.1"...

I though it was all about everyone is different and valued, but female are creating more margin...
I get it, we are all equals, but some are more equals than others...
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  #293  
Old 09.03.2016, 17:55
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Anecdote time - and not based on any statistical analysis:
I've lost count of the number of times a woman has complained about having a woman as a boss. The bitching, the moods and the complaints when a working mother has to take an hour out in order to collect a sick child.
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  #294  
Old 09.03.2016, 18:27
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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...discrimination. Most feminists I have met would claim so and I simply cannot see the point... lots of jobs that people want to work at are badly paid. But men seem to never blame it on their gender, but simply choose the less desirable but better paid options then.
I doubt there are many who revel in their oppression. Most 'victims' don't but use of words such as discrimination / oppression / liberation address the realities; the number one factor in women having higher barriers to opportunity is that men don't make the same sacrifices to even basic domestic arrangements.

Should a partner feel happy in the balance that's sweet but many women don't even have a partner yet are burdened / blessed with children where the fathers are either absent or at best around but clueless. Funny how men love gadgets but become Castrato the moment the washing machine needs loading. Most just won't be able to hold down the responsibilities of a career on top. Then there are aging parents to care for...

I'm hesitant to even mention domestic violence as a contributing factor to general oppression but it's an ugly elephant in the room.

It's as if careers are more important. That's the message sent out. Then men wonder why women aren't hot and giggly when Daddy comes home. Then Daddy stops coming home early. Then Mommy opens the gin earlier. Then the toxic days begin and everyone ends up screwed.

The decision has to be made to either be 'enough' of a player in one's field and have a genuine work / life balance or aim to be the best at what you do, but someone behind you is going to be exhausted. For many raised in traditional patriarchal family units this is the norm. Modern wimminks aren't so impressed, hence the provocative language.

Society rewards only one gender for dropping the domestic and focusing on career, as some extension of goodness knows what. As long as that reward cycle continues, men will continue to enjoy the benefits and dump on women. Your mileage may vary.

I'd be super interested if those in relationships ask each other about how they view the domestic burden; would any of the men here be willing to share the feedback? Would the women? Actually, best not; we don't rock the boat in Switzerland.

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Hence my comments about nature and nurture. There are extremely good cultural reasons why women choose certain professions and not others. One of our young neighbours did an apprenticeship as a builder- but in the end she gave up- as the daily discrimination of every kind was intolerable.
Yeah but there are laws, Odile, which say this shouldn't happen, so obviously those women are just being silly or emotional or lazy or something.


Ps, Men have plenty to worry about regarding modern masculinity but to play down women's issues does us fellas no service. Make love not gender war.
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  #295  
Old 09.03.2016, 18:45
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Because the Bosses Wife wouldn't like it?
You should see my wife's lawyer's secretaries, and how they dress!

Somehow, I can't see him hiring a male legal secretary, they probably cost too much!

Tom
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  #296  
Old 09.03.2016, 18:46
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Real men do not feel emasculated or threatenened by intelligent and 'ambitious' women- and I am very lucky, both in my father, my brothers, my many male friends and colleagues. Sadly many women are not- here, there or anywhere. It destroys some, it makes others stronger and more determined.

Last edited by Odile; 09.03.2016 at 19:01.
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  #297  
Old 09.03.2016, 19:06
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Real men do not feel emasculated or threatenened by intelligent and 'ambitious' women- and I am very lucky, both in my father, my brothers, my many male friends and colleagues. Sadly many women are not- here, there or anywhere. It destroys some, it makes others stronger and more determined.
what is a real man? some sort of sexist stereotype, or so?

anyway you seem to like them, good thing they appear to be everywhere.
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  #298  
Old 09.03.2016, 19:10
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Most of the gay men and transgender people I've met in my life are certainly much more 'real' in that sense, than many of the macho ones who think they are real - if you see what I mean
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  #299  
Old 09.03.2016, 19:17
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Real men do not feel emasculated or threatenened by intelligent and 'ambitious' women
Why would they?

Personally, I avoid "ambitous" people of either sex like the plague!

Tom
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Old 09.03.2016, 19:20
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Most of the gay men and transgender people I've met in my life are certainly much more 'real' in that sense, than many of the macho ones who think they are real - if you see what I mean
How on earth have we now got onto how manly gay and transgender men are? Surely you can do better than trying to provoke an emotion reaction in that way...
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