Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #301  
Old 09.03.2016, 19:24
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 9,401
Groaned at 315 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 13,458 Times in 6,986 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Quote:
View Post
So why on earth would anyone ever hire a man over a women if the woman is doing the same job for less money?

It makes NO sense at all.

Tom
From a cynical or lets say just pragmatical employer´s point of view it makes a lot of sense. If a woman is still in her childbearing years the employer could consider there is a risk she would interrupt her employment for maternity leave, child sickness leave etc so they cannot always count on her delivering the job.
Reply With Quote
  #302  
Old 09.03.2016, 19:30
manwithnoname's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 466
Groaned at 66 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 1,209 Times in 484 Posts
manwithnoname has a reputation beyond reputemanwithnoname has a reputation beyond reputemanwithnoname has a reputation beyond reputemanwithnoname has a reputation beyond reputemanwithnoname has a reputation beyond repute
Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Quote:
View Post
How on earth have we now got onto how manly gay and transgender men are? Surely you can do better than trying to provoke an emotion reaction in that way...
dont waste your time. female chauvinists will never change their mind. as if all heterosexual cis males are the same. pure bigotry of a matriarchal misandrist that forgot to check her privilege.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank manwithnoname for this useful post:
  #303  
Old 09.03.2016, 19:31
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Quote:
View Post
How on earth have we now got onto how manly gay and transgender men are? Surely you can do better than trying to provoke an emotion reaction in that way...

Manly? I do believe you've totally missed the point here totally - indeed.
Reply With Quote
  #304  
Old 09.03.2016, 19:37
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,464
Groaned at 955 Times in 673 Posts
Thanked 17,334 Times in 6,804 Posts
Chuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond repute
Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Quote:
Manly? I do believe you've totally missed the point here totally - indeed.
You brought gay and transgender men into the discussion in an overly vague and unclear way... It's down to you to explain what you actually mean.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Chuff for this useful post:
  #305  
Old 09.03.2016, 19:48
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

This is a longish read, slightly nsfw. Not exactly about international women's day, but explains the way many women (myself included) feel about feminism and the man/woman divide, such as it does, or does not exist.

http://www.esquire.co.uk/culture/adv...caitlin-moran/
Reply With Quote
  #306  
Old 09.03.2016, 21:03
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA, former Zurich
Posts: 2,049
Groaned at 14 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 4,811 Times in 1,660 Posts
BokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond repute
Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Quote:
View Post
I'd be super interested if those in relationships ask each other about how they view the domestic burden; would any of the men here be willing to share the feedback? Would the women? Actually, best not; we don't rock the boat in Switzerland.
Don't mind sharing, we like to rock the boat here across the pond, We had this discussion recently as my OH (man) and I (woman) are preparing to establish our household here very soon We are thinking of various combinations that involve both reducing work/increasing our home time. We are trying to be realistic and prioritize what we truly care about, and delegate/outsource the rest to someone else.

I posted the below on the working moms/SAHMs thread, so I will just be lazy and copy myself:

My OH and I have talked about what we will do when we have children (hopefully soon) – neither of us wants to completely stop working, but we would also like to spend considerable amount of time with our child(ren). The potential solutions we are thinking about are the following, to be applied in a variety of combinations: hiring a full-time housekeeper, he “retiring early” from his formal job, but continuing to collaborate via research/collecting royalties for his patents, me taking advantage of one of the various flexible work options offered by my employer, such as partial work from home, straight up part-time work. My OH keeping his full time job and me leaving my employer, establishing my own small business/ small advisory practice. My parents have also talked about spending periods of various months here in the USA (and in South America where my brother is) each year, upon my dad’s retirement. I think what we ultimately settle on will depend on the circumstances we are in when we do have child(ren), but for sure we are thinking about it.
Reply With Quote
  #307  
Old 10.03.2016, 08:31
dodgyken's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Democratic Republic Kenistan
Posts: 10,690
Groaned at 282 Times in 233 Posts
Thanked 19,403 Times in 7,402 Posts
dodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond repute
Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Could some EF posters get their knickers in a twist over this Autoscout advert?
Reply With Quote
  #308  
Old 10.03.2016, 08:53
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 28,999
Groaned at 1,989 Times in 1,506 Posts
Thanked 34,443 Times in 16,379 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Quote:
View Post
Could some EF posters get their knickers in a twist over this Autoscout advert?
Personally, I find all SUVs to be womanly, and NOT manly!

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #309  
Old 10.03.2016, 09:06
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 4,552
Groaned at 492 Times in 321 Posts
Thanked 4,099 Times in 1,952 Posts
CorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Quote:
Most of the gay men and transgender people I've met in my life are certainly much more 'real' in that sense, than many of the macho ones who think they are real - if you see what I mean
"Gay men and transgender people are more equals than less real men" ― Odile

Somehow I feel like an historical quote has just been made... a bit like this one:

"“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
― Albert Einstein"
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank CorsebouTheReturn for this useful post:
  #310  
Old 10.03.2016, 09:17
Aeneas's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Winterthur, ZH
Posts: 1,069
Groaned at 41 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 1,171 Times in 574 Posts
Aeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond repute
Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Quote:
View Post
I doubt there are many who revel in their oppression. Most 'victims' don't but use of words such as discrimination / oppression / liberation address the realities; the number one factor in women having higher barriers to opportunity is that men don't make the same sacrifices to even basic domestic arrangements.

Should a partner feel happy in the balance that's sweet but many women don't even have a partner yet are burdened / blessed with children where the fathers are either absent or at best around but clueless. Funny how men love gadgets but become Castrato the moment the washing machine needs loading. Most just won't be able to hold down the responsibilities of a career on top. Then there are aging parents to care for...

I'm hesitant to even mention domestic violence as a contributing factor to general oppression but it's an ugly elephant in the room.
Not every day you read a man-hating diatribe like that, but on your last comment, where you imply that domestic violence is a simply a male on female issue, you probably should check your facts first:
"In 2013, the American Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found that from a sample of 16,000 U.S. adults, 26% of homosexual men, 37.3% of bisexual men, and 29% of heterosexual men had been a victim of intimate partner violence, compared to 43.8% of lesbians, 61.1% of bisexual women and 35% of heterosexual women." Source.
Strangely not only are rates if domestic violence against men by women comparable to the reverse, but women in a relationship with another woman are more likely to suffer violence than if in a relationship with a man.

Perhaps you should concentrate on that elephant in the room and stop spouting bigoted, misandrist offal.
Quote:
Ps, Men have plenty to worry about regarding modern masculinity but to play down women's issues does us fellas no service. Make love not gender war.
Hypocrite - your post was noting more than attack on men, playing down issues that affect men and blaming them for all of women's ills.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Aeneas for this useful post:
  #311  
Old 10.03.2016, 09:35
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 9,401
Groaned at 315 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 13,458 Times in 6,986 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Quote:
View Post
Strangely not only are rates if domestic violence against men by women comparable to the reverse, but women in a relationship with another woman are more likely to suffer violence than if in a relationship with a man.

Perhaps you should concentrate on that elephant in the room and stop spouting bigoted, misandrist offal.
That might be due to the fact that women in relationship with a man are less willing to report domestic incidents - especially when they are families with children and the man is the bread winner.

I would even venture guessing that a woman in an open relationship with another woman is better educated than the average and financially independent.
Reply With Quote
  #312  
Old 10.03.2016, 09:43
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 4,552
Groaned at 492 Times in 321 Posts
Thanked 4,099 Times in 1,952 Posts
CorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?



Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank CorsebouTheReturn for this useful post:
  #313  
Old 10.03.2016, 09:46
dodgyken's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Democratic Republic Kenistan
Posts: 10,690
Groaned at 282 Times in 233 Posts
Thanked 19,403 Times in 7,402 Posts
dodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond repute
Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Turns out "Lesbian violence" returns a lot of blocked links if you Google it at work
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank dodgyken for this useful post:
  #314  
Old 10.03.2016, 09:51
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 4,552
Groaned at 492 Times in 321 Posts
Thanked 4,099 Times in 1,952 Posts
CorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Quote:
View Post
Turns out "Lesbian violence" returns a lot of blocked links if you Google it at work
Try this one: "woman better educated than the average and financially independent", I only got 1 result, and it's not my mum!


Reply With Quote
  #315  
Old 10.03.2016, 09:52
Aeneas's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Winterthur, ZH
Posts: 1,069
Groaned at 41 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 1,171 Times in 574 Posts
Aeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond repute
Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Quote:
View Post
That might be due to the fact that women in relationship with a man are less willing to report domestic incidents - especially when they are families with children and the man is the bread winner.
And in a lesbian relationship one cannot also be the breadwinner? And why would a woman in a relationship with a man be less willing to report domestic incidents? If anything, the problem is that men are less willing to report domestic incidents when the aggressor is a woman because they'd either be laughed out of it or presumed to be at fault.
Quote:
I would even venture guessing that a woman in an open relationship with another woman is better educated than the average and financially independent.
Ironically, I'm having a drink with a lesbian who broke up with her partner recently and is looking for advice on her CV / job applications, as she's not had to work for years. So feel free to venture all you like, if it fits your agenda.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Aeneas for this useful post:
  #316  
Old 10.03.2016, 10:11
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 28,999
Groaned at 1,989 Times in 1,506 Posts
Thanked 34,443 Times in 16,379 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Quote:
View Post
Ironically, I'm having a drink with a lesbian
Isn't it a bit early for a drink?

Tom
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #317  
Old 10.03.2016, 10:14
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 4,552
Groaned at 492 Times in 321 Posts
Thanked 4,099 Times in 1,952 Posts
CorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Quote:
View Post
Isn't it a bit early for a drink?

Tom
For a man, maybe. Not for a lesbian, gay or even a transgender. They are more real than others.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank CorsebouTheReturn for this useful post:
  #318  
Old 10.03.2016, 10:17
Aeneas's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Winterthur, ZH
Posts: 1,069
Groaned at 41 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 1,171 Times in 574 Posts
Aeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond reputeAeneas has a reputation beyond repute
Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Quote:
View Post
Isn't it a bit early for a drink?
Upps, I left out 'this evening'
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Aeneas for this useful post:
  #319  
Old 10.03.2016, 10:29
Samaire13's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: CH
Posts: 4,347
Groaned at 123 Times in 99 Posts
Thanked 7,216 Times in 2,746 Posts
Samaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

OK this is my last attempt. I may need to reconsider my choice of job as I apparently can't build an argument that others understand

Quote:
View Post
So just to be clear, as I brought up many of the arguments you mention:
- Do I believe that there is no sexism or discrimination in Switzerland? Absolutely not. I know it exists and I believe you that you see it every day. In some areas is it stronger than others and I guess you are in the stronger area, whatever business you work in.
- I do however reject the claims that women earn 20 or 30% less and it's all just because their sex is oppressed. For the arguments given do I think that the vast majority can indeed be explained.

To put this into simple terms:
- I am pretty sure that for example kindergarden employees are badly paid
- I am pretty sure that most people working there are female
- I am pretty sure that most knew about the low salary before they chose the education to work there
- I am pretty sure that as long as women are willing to work for the salaries paid there, little will change...

I guess we all can agree on the facts. The question is weather the bad pay of kindergardeners is discrimination. Most feminists I have met would claim so and I simply cannot see the point... lots of jobs that people want to work at are badly paid. But men seem to never blame it on their gender, but simply choose the less desirable but better paid options then.
I agree with all this.

I don't like aggregated numbers on male vs female salaries as they don't take into account that exact issue, i.e. that many, many women choose to work in low-paid jobs with little "career" progression (whatever the hell that means) to begin with. Everyone knows a hairdresser won't bring home 150k a year nor have a high-flying career. I have no sympathy or tolerance for anyone choosing a rather low-paid job and then attributing that pay to the fact that they're a woman (or have a certain nationality, skin color, height or whatever else it may be). In fact, this exact messing up of facts is probably a reason why this continues to be a hot button issue.

Mediocre or bad salaries in some jobs that just happen to be filled predominantly by women is NOT gender discrimination, not to me anyway. The bigger question of course is the general fairness of salaries (whole different topic though) and why many women choose those jobs (yet another whole different topic).

However, to go with your example, it would be discrimination if a male kindergarten teacher and a female kindergarten teacher work in the same team at the same school in the same role and the male earns 15% more.

Of course someone will say "but that is probably because the woman has been away for 14 weeks twice for maternity leave". No, again, not all women have children, so while that MAY be a sort-of-but-not-really (more to that in a minute) explanation in SOME cases, it is not in ALL. Also, as of a certain point, the years of experience and, more importantly, the educational background become somewhat redundant or less important, especially if there's little vertical career movement anyway. That means that it will hardly matter whether a 45-year old kindergarten teacher has worked as in that very profession for 24 years or 25 years.

Now of course in very fast-moving environments, that may indeed be different and a year away from the job (whether it's to have children, to go travelling, for education, due to illness or anything else) may stall a person's "career". However, then that same person who was away for a year is unlikely to end up in the exact same job as the one who hasn't been away anyway. But let's be honest, most industries aren't exactly so fast-moving that a few months away from the job would make a real difference.

My point is still what I said before: not all salary differences can be explained away by choices the woman made outside the job. There is salary discrimination, but of course not between a kindergarten teacher and the division head of an MNC (as said, apples-oranges), but within the same jobs in the same settings where there are no explanations other than implicit assumptions about a woman's priorities (some of which can also be seen here: all women want/have children, all woman will work less when they have children, all women will stay home 5 times a month because the child is sick etc.). And that type of discrimination probably doesn't happen with the sales staff in Migros or the hairdressers at the salon around the corner or the teachers at the local school, but it sure does happen as of a certain seniority level in larger corporations, I'm afraid. And I'm not sure why some pretend it doesn't.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Samaire13 for this useful post:
  #320  
Old 10.03.2016, 10:38
Chemmie's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,108
Groaned at 31 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 4,894 Times in 2,214 Posts
Chemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Quote:
View Post
........
My point is still what I said before: not all salary differences can be explained away by choices the woman made outside the job. There is salary discrimination, but of course not between a kindergarten teacher and the division head of an MNC (as said, apples-oranges), but within the same jobs in the same settings where there are no explanations other than implicit assumptions about a woman's priorities (some of which can also be seen here: all women want/have children, all woman will work less when they have children, all women will stay home 5 times a month because the child is sick etc.). And that type of discrimination probably doesn't happen with the sales staff in Migros or the hairdressers at the salon around the corner or the teachers at the local school, but it sure does happen as of a certain seniority level in larger corporations, I'm afraid. And I'm not sure why some pretend it doesn't.

I think the problem a lot of educated people (both women and men) have with this opinion, is the general apathy of saying: Since we've ruled out education, job role, work history, age, there is ABSOLUTELY no other reason that pay scales are different rather than because of one's gender.


Extremely short sighted and really fits the concept of affirmative bias. If this was indeed the case, job interviews would only require a short list of those items and the job would be given at the stated salary.


Of course we all know that jobs applications consist of many in person interviews--these are to gauge the skills and personalities that are not as easy to quantify. In these variable I believe one will be able to see differences that might correlate with gender.


Of course it's not absolute, but there are some traits that are more common in women than in men. NOTE I say it's not absolute--and it's common/uncommon.
__________________
"You have reached the end of you free trial membership at BenjaminFranklinQuotes.com" -Benjamin Franklin
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Chemmie for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
equality, film, gender equality, international women's day, women




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
International Women's Day Guest International affairs/politics 6 10.03.2014 13:23
International Women's Day smtrickett Social events 0 04.03.2013 20:26
Celebrating Valentine's Day .. or not BrokenWings88 General off-topic 20 11.02.2013 15:06
International Women's Day TheChumaFamily Other/general 2 27.02.2012 15:32


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 17:37.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0