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Old 10.03.2017, 08:22
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Inequality in what way? With each other? With women?

Are you talking about 'positive discrimination'?
I thought I asked a simple question, I guess I was wrong I already raised a couple of issues before. Some laws in Switzerland treat men different than women, to the disadvantage of men.

And of course there is inequality in many other areas, to name a few: can men work part time? Why are boys significantly less likely to graduate from Swiss high-schools (Maturität) and what is done to solve this issue? Why is there no paternity leave (this could in some way as well act to the disadvantage of women)?
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Old 10.03.2017, 08:33
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Inequality in what way? With each other? With women?

Are you talking about 'positive discrimination'?
Off the top of my head: Men are more likely to be arrested rather than cautioned or receive longer sentences than women for the same crime. Men have zero reproductive rights. Men have fewer, and in some jurisdictions no, paternity rights than women. Men are conscripted or made to do military service (or penalized if they do not), while women are not in jurisdictions where this occurs. Divorce. Issues that affect men are routinely ignored, such as the growing gap in higher education or domestic violence.

Now, I hope I got you wrong, because your response sounded like you didn't know about any of this. If not, it probably points to there being less need for an International Women's day and more for an International Men's day.
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  #563  
Old 10.03.2017, 08:36
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Inequality in what way? With each other? With women?

Are you talking about 'positive discrimination'?
Probably custody rights and such, in case of divorce? Just found out that men in my country feel very discriminated against - they have an anti-discrimination league for fathers and even managed to impose in the law paternity leave, father's day (that's sweet), changes in custody rights.
Their last thing was editing a book on the "alienation of the fathers".
Anyway, the legislation does favour women in some regards, but only re. parental rights.
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Old 10.03.2017, 08:38
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

You do realize if men feel disadvantaged it is their own fault? After all, in pretty much every country or company it is them making the decisions. So if you want to be upset about not having a paternity leave blame the predominantly male politicians (and of course never forget that in CH, until approx a lousy decade ago, women had no maternity leave either). If you can't work part-time, blame your company which for sure is dominated by men.

Don't blame shit on women. Men rule the world. It's not going so well from what I can see, but don't make women - or even men for that matter cause there are plenty of male feminists - the bad guys who actually try to change things. As said, equality tends to benefit groups at large.

Lastly, this day is not really about Switzerland, but about the global scale. So don't compare e.g. your supposed diminished rights in the case of a divorce with the fact that, for example, millions of women are denied access to education. It was your choice to get married and maybe even to get divorced. It was no woman's choice to be born female.

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  #565  
Old 10.03.2017, 08:44
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Off the top of my head: Men are more likely to be arrested rather than cautioned or receive longer sentences than women for the same crime. Men have zero reproductive rights. Men have fewer, and in some jurisdictions no, paternity rights than women. Men are conscripted or made to do military service (or penalized if they do not), while women are not in jurisdictions where this occurs. Divorce. Issues that affect men are routinely ignored, such as the growing gap in higher education or domestic violence.

Now, I hope I got you wrong, because your response sounded like you didn't know about any of this. If not, it probably points to there being less need for an International Women's day and more for an International Men's day.
I feel sooooo sorry for the poor men!!!!! Or should I say baby-men? Women aren't doing enough for you? Women are discriminate against everywhere, but poor men they still feel slighted, despite all the cold, hard facts that point to the contrary. Aside from Iceland, which is the most legislatively proactive in equal pay for equal work, tell me another example, where they put their money where their mouths are. There's a general assault on women's rights across the globe, but you feel discriminated against! Talk about not only alternative fact, but an alternative universe!

Every day is Men's Day, including Women's Day.
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Old 10.03.2017, 08:50
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

As in so many other things, I think my mother's take on feminism is about as solid as it gets. She was a traditional stay at home mum, a loving wife, ran a top household, and raised my sister and I in the midst of the bra burning period in North America, did a ba at 40, and had a successful career. She hasn't won a Nobel prize, nor did she ever fight a power struggle with my father (and he had too much respect for her to have initiated one from her side).

When I was about 18 she was writing an essay on feminism for a poly-sci course, and as was our habit we discussed her argument. Her position was, roughly, this:

As long as feminism limits itself to politics, symbols, or fixates on history it will only change individuals, and only very few of them. I may not be able to change the role models which I, my husband, or his boss grew up with, but as a mother I can guide the way my children see the world - this will effect more change than posters, Royal commissions, women's groups, or any strident call to action.

I tried to find fault with her argument. I couldn't then, and I still can't now.

(If you feel the urge to jump on me for insinuating that women are just baby producing machines then you're missing the point - stop and reread the above.)
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  #567  
Old 10.03.2017, 08:53
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Now, I hope I got you wrong, because your response sounded like you didn't know about any of this. If not, it probably points to there being less need for an International Women's day and more for an International Men's day.
Start knitting yourself a scrote-hat (have I just invented the male equiv of a pussy hat?) so it's ready for the 19th November 2017?

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Old 10.03.2017, 08:56
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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You do realize if men feel disadvantaged it is their own fault?
Is victim blaming OK when it's a man?

By that logic, give in the West we have universal sufferage women can blame themselves for any discrimination they suffer. After all, politicians, regardless of gender, are slaves to vox popoli - or are you suggesting that simply because most politicians (elected by a majority of men and women) somehow conspire to maintain a patriarchal bias against the wishes of the female electorate?

It's actually quite disgusting how bigoted and sexist some women have become in the name of feminism. Men apparently have all the advantages, even though it doesn't take much examination to see this is false. Suffer no discrimination, even though it doesn't take much examination to see this too is false. And women, in a democracy, should not be held accountable at all for anything (bad victim blaming), because naturally a homeless man on a street corner is secretly ruling society. Surreal.

The reality bending biases that it would require to maintain such a level of hypocrisy are likely breathtaking.
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Old 10.03.2017, 09:03
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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I feel sooooo sorry for the poor men!!!!! Or should I say baby-men? Women aren't doing enough for you? Women are discriminate against everywhere, but poor men they still feel slighted, despite all the cold, hard facts that point to the contrary.

Aside from Iceland, which is the most legislatively proactive in equal pay for equal work, tell me another example, where they put their money where their mouths are. There's a general assault on women's rights across the globe, but you feel discriminated against! Talk about not only alternative fact, but an alternative universe!

Every day is Men's Day, including Women's Day.
Other than a mindless rant, how does that address what I posted? I can understand you feel strongly on this, but you've basically come out with a generic misindrist speech and nothing else.

For example, I never suggested women do not suffer discrimination, only challenged the presumptions that men don't. Is that a problem for you?
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Old 10.03.2017, 09:08
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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I feel sooooo sorry for the poor men!!!!! Or should I say baby-men?
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You do realize if men feel disadvantaged it is their own fault?
I think most men agree that women suffer discrimination. All we want is that women agree that there are areas where men are the victims. Unfortunately the responses of both from, sound very familiar to me. I guess for some people it's hard if their views and opinions are challenged.
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  #571  
Old 10.03.2017, 09:11
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Anyway, the legislation does favour women in some regards, but only re. parental rights.
Only regarding parental rights? What about military service, retirement age or pensions for widows/widower?
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Old 10.03.2017, 09:11
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Again, your frame of reference is the US. But you and I aren't from the US and don't live there, but it just so happens that a personal friend of mine teaches English at a university in Iowa, so I'll ask him.
Are we inviting "friends" for ad hominem? Classy. He assumes I am alt-right, on top. How very scripted. Highschool all over? It is interesting (well, there is a different term for it), to assume that one not being from the US and to your knowledge not posting from there cannot relate any relevant pov. Didn't you assume my experience is delivered in Swahili? Were you, btw, mocking an ethnic group? My English is incomprehensible to you, hence it must be a minority English? That's some schematic stuff there that you apparently fight against.

Let me repeat it, you evidently do not make the link. My experience with US academic study groups (profs) actually makes me totally interpret "increased access" with what I have mentioned there: entitlement and grade changes. It gets there, little by little. And profs are let there hanging. It is getting gradually extremely difficult to keep one's standards and reputation and still take the push from diversity departments and institution policy based on identity politics.

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Regarding Jordan Peterson, you're assumption appears to be that affirmative action is being refered to by Samaire's post. I honestly didn't read it that way. My immediate thought was scholarships and I couldn't understand why scholarships would be awarded to students who were, as you put it..."academically unmerrited".
I am glad people read posts differently and you allow them. Quotas bite those who request them in their own behind. Peterson is passionate and peeved, and I totally get it. Identity politics is not an improvement.

I could invite friends for personal testimonies and some uncooth vocab, but why. You should quit assuming that my experience is certain way. It speaks more of you than the person you are trying to analyse. (Pretty off base)

Quit singling me out. Pull up your big girl's pants. (skirt, I hope hahahah). Cherish people with different opinions. EF is a good place to invite different views.
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Old 10.03.2017, 09:12
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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I think most men agree that women suffer discrimination. All we want is that women agree that there are areas where men are the victims. Unfortunately the responses of both from, sound very familiar to me. I guess for some people it's hard if their views and opinions are challenged.
My experience is that every time you get such responses in discussions, this particular 'flavour' of the Feminist movement loses the support of someone reading them. Give it time.
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Old 10.03.2017, 09:18
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Would you please stop calling it "Chick Day"? It trivialises the fight for equality and, frankly, it makes you look petty.
Does your outrage give you the right to insult? Why petty? Police other posters vocabulary? Is it terminology that we are sanitising now? Shouldn't you ask yourself why do you need to reach out like that? Who sees trivializing in it? I certainly do not - I respect chicks (I am one), so much and deeply that I do not feel the need to walk around sanitising other people's ill perceived disrespect. Ask yourself why you look for the signs of this perceived disrespect, so much

Sincerely, my own chickhood loving, MusicChick
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Old 10.03.2017, 09:22
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Lastly, this day is not really about Switzerland, but about the global scale. So don't compare e.g. your supposed diminished rights in the case of a divorce with the fact that, for example, millions of women are denied access to education. It was your choice to get married and maybe even to get divorced. It was no woman's choice to be born female.
It wasn't my choice either to be born as a man.

And btw, we are talking about Switzerland because this thread was started to talk about why Switzerland is "backward in coming forward, so to speak, when it comes to celebrating women's achievements and seeking gender equality?" So what is wrong with us addressing issues regarding gender equality in Switzerland?
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Old 10.03.2017, 09:27
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

I am still curious why on Earth a bunch of smart folks we are - we insist on reducing chick day to female parenting. I find it simplistic. And I see myself more than a mom. (Irrespectively of my personal experience with single parenting and the system giving up on me since I do my job so well, it feels no urgency going after the second parent's negligence).

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Old 10.03.2017, 09:38
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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I am still curious why on Earth a bunch of smart folks we are - we insist on reducing chick day to female parenting. I find it simplistic. And I see yourself more than a mom. (Irrespectively of my personal experience with single parenting and the system giving up on me since I do my job so well, it feels no urgency going after the second parent's negligence).
I use the terms chick and dude frequently myself.

But I don't see that international women's day is just about female parenting. It's about equal treatment for women in society regardless of mother status. is this mother stuff a Swiss society thing?
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Old 10.03.2017, 09:46
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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I am still curious why on Earth a bunch of smart folks we are - we insist on reducing chick day to female parenting.
Because most people tend to identify with what affects them and use such campaigns as a means of rationalizing their sense of self-entitlement on those issues, while ignoring what does not affect them, or even the whole point of the campaign?
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Old 10.03.2017, 09:51
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Only regarding parental rights? What about military service, retirement age or pensions for widows/widower?
Well, these issues are up to every country to solve. Back home the military service is not compulsory anymore, so we do have girls in the army these days. Pensions legislation does not discriminate based on gender - surviving spouse gets the pension regardless of gender if legal requirements are met, as for retirement age - there is a gap, indeed, but don't know any man to complain about this. (except on EF, of course)
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Old 10.03.2017, 09:56
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Well, these issues are up to every country to solve.
So women's rights issues in Saudi Arabia should be left up to the Saudis to solve then? We can stop discussing them so.

Some of the responses here are comedy gold.
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