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Old 10.03.2017, 14:16
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Indeed, but if you're trying to convince those reading this thread of your views, then losing credibility isn't going to help you and neither is dismissing it with a "whatevs..."
It just coincidentally looked like ignoring the point and attempting instead to trivialize it. Sure.
I've repeatedly said you implied it and what you wrote and I quoted pretty much questioned it's existence. And I've quoted it, so I'm not mixing you up with anyone else.
I'm sorry, but I don't think so. I've made my argument and it's pretty clear that you said something indefensible, refuse to back it up and now you've got a bee in her bonnet that she got challenged on it.
You could or you could have challenged me on it if you really think it's untrue, after all I made the claim, so it's up to be to do so. But you didn't even bother doing that.
You're the one who decided to introduce the "they're asking for it" argument.
You realise that all of what you have written is based on your perception, supposition and your own (mis)interpretation, don't you?

None of it actually corresponds to anything I wrote, nor have you been able to provide anything concrete to back it up.

The more you carry on, the wilder your assumptions are.

What's in store next..? You should bring the sexist flowers back again.
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  #602  
Old 10.03.2017, 15:16
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Perhaps this is helpful for the discussion. According to the Economist, Switzerland is the WORST country in Europe for women's rights! Time to wake up and make a change ladies (and guys that care!).

http://www.bilan.ch/economie-plus-de...ravail-feminin

I can only relate to this. Ridiculous childcare cost (and low quality IMO, and undersupply with waiting lists), limited childcare hours (many until 6pm only, which is tough if you have e.g., a 30min commute), until recently lack of school canteens, super expensive helpers (cleaners, babysitters, etc), IVF not covered by insurance, etc.

There is a lot of room for improvement.
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  #603  
Old 10.03.2017, 15:17
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Equality come in all shapes and hilarious forms.


I give you, the work-at-home dad:




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5A1wg5FA-g




just a quick laugh and smile for this Friday!
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  #604  
Old 10.03.2017, 15:33
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Aha... so it's not just me and my hopelessly outdated insensitive and overbearing macho world view...

When I see or read a guy mansplaining something I am free to think or reply "Wow, what a dickhead!" When I see a "feminist" Woemanizing her own bent spin on how the world is against her I am (sometimes) inclined to hold my tongue.
I would just see your (ocassional) effort to hold your tongue as old school. Nothing more nothing less. Courteous? I think the fact you think what you think makes probably more difference long term than your self restraint.
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  #605  
Old 10.03.2017, 15:58
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Chick day should not be about parenting I think. Mother's day offers plenty of opportunity. Chick day is for chicks. Non parents as well. Democratically. Let people come out with as many concerns as possible, I would not be happy to reduce it to parenting. Seperate issue.
But it is about all women - mothers and not mothers alike. For some reasons the discussion on EF has revolved around parenting, a pity.
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  #606  
Old 10.03.2017, 16:03
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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According to the Economist, Switzerland is the WORST country in Europe for women's rights
That is NOT what it says in the article, nor the subject of the article.

Tom
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  #607  
Old 10.03.2017, 16:30
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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You realise that all of what you have written is based on your perception, supposition and your own (mis)interpretation, don't you?
Actually it's based on what you've posted.
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None of it actually corresponds to anything I wrote, nor have you been able to provide anything concrete to back it up.
That is pretty demonstrably untrue - I quoted what you said, you've failed to address it or my response to it and you even changed your position to claim you have no obligation to do so in the first place - but the reader can decide. I'm not looking to convince you.
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What's in store next..? You should bring the sexist flowers back again.
You'll have to be a lot funnier to distract the audience from your inconsistencies.
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  #608  
Old 10.03.2017, 16:54
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Actually it's based on what you've posted.
Well clearly, and that's not the issue. Your misinterpretation is the point, but you steadfastly refuse to accept that. Nothing I can do about that, I'm afraid.

Not sure why you're banging on the same point over and over again - it wasn't even your point in the first place. Yesterday you were beating RufusB round the head with her posts and today it seems to be my turn.

By the way you STILL haven't posted any quotes of mine which are relevant to your points.
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  #609  
Old 10.03.2017, 17:14
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Well clearly, and that's not the issue. Your misinterpretation is the point, but you steadfastly refuse to accept that. Nothing I can do about that, I'm afraid.
I steadfastly refuse to accept your denial and that's all you've offered. You refuse to accept otherwise, ironically, and I suspect there's nothing I can do about that.
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By the way you STILL haven't posted any quotes of mine which are relevant to your points.
I did. Repeatedly. My first response was to you trivializing any discrimination faced by men:
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Inequality in what way? With each other? With women?

Are you talking about 'positive discrimination'?
I really don't know how you can claim that this is not what you're doing here or that it is not relevant to my point that you are implying that such discrimination does not exist? How is questioning "inequality in what way" not putting into question it's existence? Tell me please.

But please don't p**s on me and tell me it's raining.
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  #610  
Old 10.03.2017, 17:32
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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How is questioning "inequality in what way" not putting into question it's existence? Tell me please.
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Inequality in what way? With each other? With women?

Are you talking about 'positive discrimination'?
OK, last try and now I'm beginning to realise that English isn't your first language...

My question to Scipio above was asking what he/she mean. I was NOT questionning its existence. If I was questioning its existence I would have worded the comment "Bullshit, there is no discrimination amongst men" and not asked a question.

I then volunteered an example to test whether I understood, i.e. asked whether "positive discrimination" was the intended sentiment. As it happens, I thought you would have jumped on that bandwagon but you missed that and it has left.

Do you finally see the difference?

You then took your misunderstanding of my question then battered me with all sorts of examples "off the top of your head", as you said, then got all pissy because I didn't jump around answering you.

So, I think this thread has been derailed enough now so perhaps you could just leave it be.

Last edited by Sandgrounder; 10.03.2017 at 17:41. Reason: clarification
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  #611  
Old 10.03.2017, 17:43
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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OK, last try and now I'm beginning to realise that English isn't your first language...
Nice ad hominem. Maybe logic isn't your forte?
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My question to Scipio above was asking what he/she meant NOT questionning its existence. If I was questioning its existence I would have worded the comment "Bullshit, there is no discrimination amongst men" and not asked a question.
False. You can question or dismiss a point without being overt about it like that and that is what you did.
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I then volunteered an example to test whether I understood, i.e. asked whether "positive discrimination" was the intended sentiment. As it happens, I thought you would have jumped on that bandwagon but you missed that and it has left.
After which I responded, gave examples and you ignored them. You asked for clarification while questioning the validity of his point. Then you ignored the response you sought.
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Do you finally see the difference?
Yes, if you ignore an inconvenient point there's less chance people will see you were coming out with nonsense.
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So, I think this thread has been derailed enough now so perhaps you could just leave it be.
Because you say so? And TBH, if someone comes out with something as outrageous as that it's not derailment to bring them up on it.
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  #612  
Old 10.03.2017, 17:48
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

OK, take it. It's all yours.

Happy Friday.
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  #613  
Old 10.03.2017, 18:16
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

It is hilarious when members start playing the "you don't understand my English" game just because their opponents consistently disagree with some point.

Aeneas writes better than some native Anglophones here. His only "problem" seem to be those who acuse him of povs he doesn't even have.
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  #614  
Old 10.03.2017, 18:26
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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It is hilarious when members start playing the "you don't understand my English" game just because their opponents consistently disagree with some point.

Aeneas writes better than some native Anglophones here. His only "problem" seem to be those who accuse him of povs he doesn't even have.
Oh the irony...

What's that you say about accusing people of points of view they don't even have?

You know, the bit where Aeneas is banging on about me apparently denying that male discrimination exists?

So I guess I agree with you.

That's too funny.
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  #615  
Old 10.03.2017, 20:00
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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No, not at all - I didn't mean we shouldn't discuss this. We discuss everything on EF!!
I should have made myself more clear: there are some issues but limiting ourselves only to discussion won't push for any progress. I wasn't that aware of the discrimination men face in court after a divorce tbh, now I know there is an organisation which took things a few steps further, and with good results.
I don't have any recipe, neither for the discrimination that women are confronted with.
Thanks for clarifying I guess the only recipe is to exchange experiences, to raise awareness and to accept that this change can only happen if we all work together.
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  #616  
Old 11.03.2017, 18:14
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Aeneas writes better than some native Anglophones here. His only "problem" seem to be those who acuse him of povs he doesn't even have.
Where did this nonsense that I'm not a native English speaker come from? I thought it was pretty obvious that Sandgrounder's accusation was simply one of a number of ad hominems she's employed to make up for lack of any substantive argument.
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You know, the bit where Aeneas is banging on about me apparently denying that male discrimination exists?
Well there is where you have me with a technicality, because at some stage I did probably slip up and say that you were outright denying that male discrimination exists. Technically you only implied it, and while it likely that you do believe this, you didn't come out and say it. It is something I have corrected myself on subsequently and repeatedly, but it hasn't stopped you from ignoring this correction and instead beating me to death with your desperate pedantry.
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Old 11.03.2017, 18:26
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Where did this nonsense that I'm not a native English speaker come from? I thought it was pretty obvious that Sandgrounder's accusation was simply one of a number of ad hominems she's employed to make up for lack of any substantive argument.
My mistake, then. Given that you were repeatedly misunderstanding my posts, this seemed to be the only logical explanation.

Which brings me onto this:

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Well there is where you have me with a technicality, because at some stage I did probably slip up and say that you were outright denying that male discrimination exists. Technically you only implied it, and while it likely that you do believe this, you didn't come out and say it. It is something I have corrected myself on subsequently and repeatedly, but it hasn't stopped you from ignoring this correction and instead beating me to death with your desperate pedantry.
I never implied it ANYWHERE, and you so far have not shown where this was implied to any degree other than showing that you misunderstood my post.

The fact that my husband was never asked whether he had childcare issues or whether he could estimate the instances of sickness of his own child nor was in danger of losing any unemployment benefit due to childcare issues DOES NOT mean I deny that male discrimination exists in other aspects of society.

Now I am a bit lost on how to make that any simpler without actually drawing pictures for you or resorting to the medium of dance (that is NOT ad hominem, by the way, I am genuinely at a loss for comprehension that you have willfully decided to bang on about it without any attempt of accepting what I say).
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  #618  
Old 11.03.2017, 19:16
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Where has anyone said on this thread that there is no discrimination against males?
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Old 11.03.2017, 19:39
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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My mistake, then. Given that you were repeatedly misunderstanding my posts, this seemed to be the only logical explanation.
Sorry, but I don't believe that because it was not the only ad hominem you threw at me in the course of this thread.
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The fact that my husband was never asked whether he had childcare issues or whether he could estimate the instances of sickness of his own child nor was in danger of losing any unemployment benefit due to childcare issues DOES NOT mean I deny that male discrimination exists in other aspects of society.
I never cited anything to do with you husband. I cited, and quoted now about four times, the following post:
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Inequality in what way? With each other? With women?

Are you talking about 'positive discrimination'?
That is clearly dismissive of the entire topic of discrimination against men. You have to date not even acknowledged this quote, let alone the response to the above questions you publicly sought. I put it up and it like it has some sort of spell of invisibility for you.

I don't believe you're stupid or cannot understand, so at this stage given your single minded need to avoid what I have presented, I need to conclude that you're well aware of what you said and simply want to avoid admitting it.

It reminds me of a situation I encountered on a project many years ago, where the senior PM, a middle-aged Essex chap, commented on the mixed ethnic heritage of one of the consultants with the phrase "a ni**er in the woodpile". Needless to say the matter escalated, but he was adamant that he had not said anything racist and that he had simply used a commonly used phrase. And to a great extent I believed him because if you live in an environment where you can openly express racist terms or it's perfectly normal to argue that men deserve what they're getting now, you don't even think about whether what you're coming out with is true or offensive and probably would be surprised if anyone did object.
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Where has anyone said on this thread that there is no discrimination against males?
Did you not read my last post? Where I specifically said no one did so directly, but Sandgrounder implied it? Why are you trying to push a strawman argument I am not actually supporting?
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  #620  
Old 11.03.2017, 21:02
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Where did this nonsense that I'm not a native English speaker come from? I thought it was pretty obvious that Sandgrounder's accusation was simply one of a number of ad hominems she's employed to make up for lack of any substantive argument.

Well there is where you have me with a technicality, because at some stage I did probably slip up and say that you were outright denying that male discrimination exists. Technically you only implied it, and while it likely that you do believe this, you didn't come out and say it. It is something I have corrected myself on subsequently and repeatedly, but it hasn't stopped you from ignoring this correction and instead beating me to death with your desperate pedantry.
Sorry, I thought I have read it somewhere years ago, not sure why I thought (hoped, lol) you might not be native English

I agree with the rest of the post, too.

People have crass ways here when singling out individual posters, unfortunately.

It has been a good debate, otherwise.

Last edited by MusicChick; 11.03.2017 at 22:29.
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