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Old 27.02.2015, 06:53
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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But since you and others keep bringing up Switzerland: no, women do not have equal rights to men in this country and no I don't care if men have two or three disadvantages towards twenty, thirty aspects in which women are still at a substantial disadvantage. It goes without saying that it's much better than it used to be, but it is still a far cry from perfect and much of what is going on is lip service rather than anything else. Women's liberation - as every similar type of liberation movement - was and is only possible at the expense of others and that's simply how the world works. Something always has to give. I have never and will never refute that any type of fighting discrimination - be it gender, race, age, religion, whatever - has an inherent risk of turning into bias and discrimination on the other end. I have also never and will never refute that men had to give a little to make women's liberation possible. But at the end of the day, that is a small price to pay for a substantially better outcome for BOTH men and women.
Ok, leaving all the ranting aside an honest and direct question: Name a couple of things where women are legally disadvantaged in Switzerland. Because I can only come up with laws that are rather in their favour:
- no army service ("because they get the children" which is at the current birth rate statistically not a valid argument)
- always the upper hand in divorce cases
- always the default winner in any custody case

I am the first to admit that women are often at a disadvantage - but not in their rights but in the Swiss culture. And I will be even more direct: Most of those cultural values were in my experience not carried on by the evil Swiss men subduing their females... the worst cases I have witnessed came from Swiss women:

- I used to work for a female manager who had three pre-school kids which went to full day childcare. I could not care less and I have not heard male colleagues discussing it. But the female colleagues did repeatedly and I did hear terms like "Rabenmutter" at the water cooler.

- I have met many Swiss females who think that university is the time between school and starting a family... so they study fun humanities subjects which clearly won't score you a job. But later they complain how unfair some pay gap is... if a guy would do remotely the same and study whatever he enjoys without planning for a career would he be absolutely not accepted in Switzerland. So much about equality.

- I consider myself a very progressive person. Part of this is that it is for me absolutely natural that my wife has a career on her own. When she was offered a good opportunity abroad did I quit my job and follow. Any idea what kind of comments I got from female Swiss colleagues? "So you found a job there as well?" "Not yet, I'll move first and then find something." "So you are saying that you will live on your wifes income?!" "Erm, yes... I guess that's how it works." "Don't you think that's antisocial?" "Huh?! Do you know what this term actually means?"

Nobody rejects that fact that women have a hard life in big parts of the world. But yes, I do challenge the idea that today in Switzerland they have it any harder than men. I'd claim the opposite.
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  #62  
Old 27.02.2015, 10:23
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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I call it whining because that's what it is. Women are - again, GLOBALLY - not even remotely close to having equal rights to men. I don't care if in individual countries, de-facto equality is achieved or not. This day, this discussion, is not about Switzerland or Europe or any other Western country, it is about large-scale inequality issues that you can choose to ignore all you want and insist on that stupid "poor men"-blablah. That doesn't make them any less of a fact. In the grand scheme of things, women are worth nothing in this world.

But since you and others keep bringing up Switzerland: no, women do not have equal rights to men in this country and no I don't care if men have two or three disadvantages towards twenty, thirty aspects in which women are still at a substantial disadvantage. It goes without saying that it's much better than it used to be, but it is still a far cry from perfect and much of what is going on is lip service rather than anything else.
My comment was in response to your statement that "Swiss men are whining that they are already disadvantaged [...]". Guess why I was talking about Switzerland?

Now you made me curious. What kind of rights do women not have in Switzerland? I really wonder.
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Old 27.02.2015, 10:52
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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My comment was in response to your statement that "Swiss men are whining that they are already disadvantaged [...]". Guess why I was talking about Switzerland?

Now you made me curious. What kind of rights do women not have in Switzerland? I really wonder.
from the Local:

"In Switzerland, the WEF report shows that women are paid just 59 percent of what men earn for similar work, compared with 74 percent in Iceland."

I'm sure there's plenty more so you can DYOR.
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Old 27.02.2015, 11:11
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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from the Local:

"In Switzerland, the WEF report shows that women are paid just 59 percent of what men earn for similar work, compared with 74 percent in Iceland."

I'm sure there's plenty more so you can DYOR.
Ok, I'll DMOR. Those numbers are not based on any proper calculation but on a survey:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworst...-from-the-wef/

They basically ask people the following question:
“In your country, for similar work, to what extent are wages for women equal to those of men?” (1 = not at all — significantly below those of men; 7 = fully — equal to those of men)
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Old 27.02.2015, 11:15
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

what's wrong with surveys?

this may help you as well: http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/gender-w...rland/38491840
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Old 27.02.2015, 11:25
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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from the Local:

"In Switzerland, the WEF report shows that women are paid just 59 percent of what men earn for similar work, compared with 74 percent in Iceland."

I'm sure there's plenty more so you can DYOR.
when I first left university, a wise old man told me that - assuming a 40 hour work week and 4 weeks of holidays a year - a person who works one hour longer than their peers each day of the week will have a full year's additional experience at the end of 10 years. the suggestion being, of course, that the additional year of experience will translate into better opportunities and better pay.

now, use that same math and start subtracting hours for weeks or even months taken off in connection with maternity, managing kids' school schedules, etc.



this is not to say that men should not also be taking time off in connection with the birth of children, or that they should not also be responsible for managing kids' school schedules, or staying home when kids are sick, etc. but, in my experience, it remains a general societal expectation (not just in Switzerland but just about anywhere in the western world) that the mother handle these things.

I have gone through long stretches of spending 80% of my time traveling, working 80+ hour weeks, missing kids' school events, holidays and family vacations, etc. - you can probably understand I would be more than a little miffed if there wasn't a significant difference between my compensation and the compensation of someone who had been out of university the same number of years but had worked literally thousands of hours less during the time period.
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  #67  
Old 27.02.2015, 11:30
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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when I first left university, a wise old man told me that - assuming a 40 hour work week and 4 weeks of holidays a year - a person who works one hour longer than their peers each day of the week will have a full year's additional experience at the end of 10 years. the suggestion being, of course, that the additional year of experience will translate into better opportunities and better pay.

now, use that same math and start subtracting hours for weeks or even months taken off in connection with maternity, managing kids' school schedules, etc.



this is not to say that men should not also be taking time off in connection with the birth of children, or that they should not also be responsible for managing kids' school schedules, or staying home when kids are sick, etc. but, in my experience, it remains a general societal expectation (not just in Switzerland but just about anywhere in the western world) that the mother handle these things.

I have gone through long stretches of spending 80% of my time traveling, working 80+ hour weeks, missing kids' school events, holidays and family vacations, etc. - you can probably understand I would be more than a little miffed if there wasn't a significant difference between my compensation and the compensation of someone who had been out of university the same number of years but had worked literally thousands of hours less during the time period.
all good points, thanks. we have to of course compare the same jobs for men and women.
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Old 27.02.2015, 11:37
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Nevermind, someone beat me to posting a link.
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Old 27.02.2015, 11:49
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Nevermind, someone beat me to posting a link.
So, regarding your own experience of your "previous" post, how would you answer that WEF survey (biased) question? Because there's not even an option for women out-earning men...
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Old 27.02.2015, 11:55
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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So, regarding your own experience of your "previous" post, how would you answer that WEF survey (biased) question? Because there's not even an option for women out-earning men...

Thanks


It's absurd, I couldn't answer it correctly. Unless the scale goes from 1-10, meaning if 7 is equal, then 10 means women earn more.

I wish I could go into more detail about my particular situation but I don't really feel comfortable doing so on the internet.
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Old 27.02.2015, 12:16
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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from the Local:

"In Switzerland, the WEF report shows that women are paid just 59 percent of what men earn for similar work, compared with 74 percent in Iceland."

I'm sure there's plenty more so you can DYOR.
But this is not a law (samaire13 mentioned that women do not have the same rights). In fact women (or men) can file a law suit against their employer if they are not payed fairly.

Last edited by scipio; 27.02.2015 at 12:27.
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  #72  
Old 27.02.2015, 13:55
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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But this is not a law (samaire13 mentioned that women do not have the same rights). In fact women (or men) can file a law suit against their employer if they are not payed fairly.
I would say that women should have the rights to have the same pay as men? otherwise it would be discrimination, don't you think?
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Old 27.02.2015, 14:32
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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I would say that women should have the rights to have the same pay as men? otherwise it would be discrimination, don't you think?
Yes, of course. But as mentioned above, they already have that right.

CC 151.1 Federal Act on Gender Equality:

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Art. 3 Prohibition of discrimination 1 Employees must not be discriminated against on the basis of their sex, whether directly or indirectly, including on the basis of their marital status, their family situation or, in the case of female employees, of pregnancy.
2 This prohibition applies in particular to hiring, allocation of duties, setting of working conditions, pay, basic and advanced training, promotion and dismissal.
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Art. 5 Employees' rights1 Anyone who is the victim of discrimination within the meaning of Articles 3 and 4 may apply to the court or to the administrative authority for an order:
a. prohibiting or stopping threatened discrimination;b. requiring existing discrimination to cease;c. confirming that discrimination is taking place if it is continuing to have a disruptive effect;d. for the payment of any salary due.
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  #74  
Old 27.02.2015, 14:48
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Yes, of course. But as mentioned above, they already have that right.

CC 151.1 Federal Act on Gender Equality:
if the legal right is not being practised, that's a problem surely?
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Old 27.02.2015, 14:50
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Ok, I'll DMOR. Those numbers are not based on any proper calculation but on a survey:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworst...-from-the-wef/

They basically ask people the following question:
“In your country, for similar work, to what extent are wages for women equal to those of men?” (1 = not at all — significantly below those of men; 7 = fully — equal to those of men)
From the Forbes article:

"Once we correct for the obvious things like hours at work, years in the workforce, educational background and so on we find that the mythical gender pay gap (that “women earn 77 cents to every $ men do”) simply disappears. There might be a small residual, a few percent, left in there but not enough that we can really notice. And quite apart from anything else it’s actually illegal to pay men and women different amounts for doing the same job (if on the basis that the different pay is purely as a result of their being men or women that is)."

Excellent summary.

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what's wrong with surveys?
Surveys reveal people's opinions or perceptions.

Factual data reveal, well, facts.

If you survey 1,000 people and ask them how they think the economy is going these days, the survey results will be an excellent indicator of ... how people think the economy is going. That's all. Productivity reports and economists' analyses of manufacturing data reveal the cold, hard, indisputable truth about the state of the economy.
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  #76  
Old 27.02.2015, 14:53
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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if the legal right is not being practised, that's a problem surely?
Yes, it's illegal, and those flouting the law would be prosecuted in Switzerland.

So, no issue there to launch a protest march about, then.
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  #77  
Old 27.02.2015, 15:11
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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So, no issue there to launch a protest march about, then.
sorry I don't understand this
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Old 27.02.2015, 15:16
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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sorry I don't understand this
http://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifie...082/index.html
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Old 27.02.2015, 15:36
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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sorry I don't understand this
The OP seemed to want Switzerland to tackle rampant inequality between men and women by getting behind IWD, maybe with a giant protest march full of oppressed women. OK, so I'm exaggerating her objectives just a little, but the point is that I don't think much can or needs to be done in the legal area in Switzerland, at least, to "reduce the gender gap". I don't think there is much of a gap here.

The thing is, men and women are different. So are black and white people, old and young, German- and French-speaking, short and tall, handsome and ugly. We all get treated a little differently because of variations in our personal attributes. In Switzerland, there are legal controls to ensure that gender isn't used as a basis for discrimination, but it has and will forever continue to be a reason for differentiation. Hopefully, doors will always be opened for women, boys will always get muddy and bruised during "Pause" at school, girls will always want ponies and dolls for Christmas and men will always get uproariously drunk with other men a couple of times a year.

That's the way the world is, and it's a good thing.
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Old 27.02.2015, 15:45
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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The OP seemed to want Switzerland to tackle rampant inequality between men and women by getting behind IWD, maybe with a giant protest march full of oppressed women. OK, so I'm exaggerating her objectives just a little, but the point is that I don't think much can or needs to be done in the legal area in Switzerland, at least, to "reduce the gender gap". I don't think there is much of a gap here.

The thing is, men and women are different. So are black and white people, old and young, German- and French-speaking, short and tall, handsome and ugly. We all get treated a little differently because of variations in our personal attributes. In Switzerland, there are legal controls to ensure that gender isn't used as a basis for discrimination, but it has and will forever continue to be a reason for differentiation. Hopefully, doors will always be opened for women, boys will always get muddy and bruised during "Pause" at school, girls will always want ponies and dolls for Christmas and men will always get uproariously drunk with other men a couple of times a year.

That's the way the world is, and it's a good thing.
OK thanks very much. The law may show equality between the sexes but I think its pretty obvious that men and women in CH aren't equal in the workplace and the school system here encourages women to stay at home
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