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  #101  
Old 08.03.2015, 14:20
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Don't forget girls, if you're marching or standing around for a long time, then you'll need to wear sensible shoes.
Where have your Lesbians gone- I want them back. Went to Aldermaston several times, and never met any

Gata, so sorry you have to go to work today. Let's hope you belong to the small minority of women who earn the same wage as men for the same job in Switzerland.

The point BelgianMum, lies partly in the comment to Gata above and the still huge disparity is salaries for the same job, between men and women. And also that there are still only about 20% of Senior managers who are women, and a large part of them are in education, social work and health related professions. Actually a few more in CH than in the UK. And that the choice to go out to work, especially in more interesting and higher paid jobs, with longer hours and more responsibility, is still a VERY difficult one, all over the world, but especially so in still traditional countries like CH, with a school system that makes it even more difficult (not in our area where the support system for before, lunch and after school supervision is really well organised and partly funded). And that many women who do decide, or have to, go back to work- still have to juggle both child-care and home-making without much support from their men- and that in all walks of life (yes, I know, there are excellent exceptions out there- and BRAVO if this applies to you)- from Senior managers who want to be able to concentrate on their (very busy and important work!) and right across the spectrum to labourers- who want their wives to work and bring money in- as long as it does not interfere with their 'traditional' duties as mothers and housekeepers.

That this still has to be highlighted beggars belief and is tragic and sad, I'd say. When I went to live in London, women still didn't have the vote in Switzerland.

DB, when celebrating a 'cause', whatever it is, you try to use examples that helped move that cause forward, not make a mockery or a tragedy of it, no!

Last edited by Odile; 08.03.2015 at 17:08.
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  #102  
Old 08.03.2015, 15:02
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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The point BelgianMum, lies partly in the comment to Gata above. There are still only about 20% of Senior managers who are women, and a large part of them are in education, social work and health related professions.
And from the 3000 Engineering students at my university were only ten female... so I must conclude that women cannot calculate?

Seriously, you cannot jump to conclusions by just quoting a number without mentioning the social reasons underneath it.

1) The reason women make it big in education and healthcare is because women in Switzerland today CHOOSE to work in these fields. A century ago were many doors closed for them and they were either openly banned from some jobs or socially outlawed if they'd try. That's hardly the case today.

2) The reason there are less female senior managers has nothing to do with ability - statistically are women in Switzerland simply less career oriented and less willing to work the crazy hours it takes to get into senior management positions of MNCs. Average guys don't get there either but mostly men who put work before anything else in their life... I met a few women who did the same and those went easily as high as their male counterparts.
I am a man and am not willing to sacrifice my life for a job or money completely either... there is absolutely no shame in Swiss women often putting family first, but it is simply a fact. Deducting discrimination from the simple statistic is just wrong.
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  #103  
Old 08.03.2015, 15:11
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

The main reason I am now in the education field is because it allows me to be at home after school and during the holidays. And I can assure you that it is not just me. Its that simple.

(Prior to having children and then retraining as an early years music educator, I was a lawyer.)
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  #104  
Old 08.03.2015, 15:35
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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statistically are women in Switzerland simply less career oriented ...

what are the reasons behind that though? Why do women make certain choices- this is not just plucked out of thin air is it? If it is a real choice, and not an enforced one due to societal expectations and refusal of (some/too many) men/fathers to adapt their own lives for their children- then that is absolutely fine. However this is rarely so, still. (apologies for the quote to be split by my comment, sorry).


Deducting discrimination from the simple statistic is just wrong.
Where on earth did I do that?



what are the reasons behind that though? Why do women make certain choices- this is not just plucked out of thin air is it? If it is a real choice, and not an enforced one due to societal expectations and refusal of (some) men/fathers to adapt their own lives for their children- then that is absolutely fine. However this is rarely so, still. Why do women choose to change their career after children, and not their husbands, for instance? In our case, it was obvious, not because of the male/female thing. In many cases it is not.

And yes, there are few women in Engineering still- despite the fact that some of them (just like some men) can calculate, and very well. So why do so few choose engineering? Again, this is not just by chance- as you well know. One young lady I know decided to go into construction work here in our area- via an apprenticeship. She was bulied and mocked so much, she just gave up in the end, as she was heading for a break-down.


For those who do realise that there is still a long way to go, and that girls and young women do need inspirational stories to help them on their was, there is :

http://www.amightygirl.com/books/

I do hope my grand-daughter will be able to fulfil her dreams- whatever they are, because this is what she truly wants, and not she thinks is expected of her by her peers and society at large- and I thank my amazing mother for being such a good rôle model and inspiration, always. Children, boys and girls, who are encouraged to become responsible from a young age in many many ways, rather than placed in cotton-wool and 'served' - grow strong, independent and determined, as well as feeling loved. Merci maman, de tout coeur.


I do wonder how many who don't see the point have daughters and grand-daughters? And how many with sons will expect their future wives to give up their career?

Last edited by Odile; 08.03.2015 at 18:11.
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  #105  
Old 08.03.2015, 18:12
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

Thank god Switzerland doesn't have as much feminism as the anglocentric countries. I am glad that we don't hear anything about international womens day here, as women have MORE rights than men now. It is now men who are oppressed with fewer rights because feminism has gone way too far. This is why we now have MRA (Men's Rights Activists) groups such as www.avoiceformen.com

It makes me laugh whenever I hear a woman complaining about the lack of equality in Switzerland. Try being a swiss man and being forced to do conscription, or be punished by paying 3% more tax if you aren't able to. Why don't we hear the feminists fighting for gender equality on this one by making conscription compulsory for swiss women as well? Oh wait, that's because feminism isn't about equality, its only about fighting sexism that disadvantages women.

We all know the gender wage gap is a myth that has been debunked many, many times now, but feminists won't let it go. Basically feminists want the same pay as a man for less work. There are less women in management positions in switzerland because women typically don't choose these careers that require demanding hours. However there are a few women that have chosen this, and they are always paid the same as a man if they put in the same amount of hours and work.

Oh and on the issue of voting in Switzerland, last year there was a vote on whether or not to keep conscription for men. Women were obviously allowed to vote on this, even though they don't have to participate in conscription! Most women voted yes to keep conscription for men! What a slap in the face for swiss men by even letting women vote on this issue! However this could soon come back to bite them on the ass, as the Swiss government are considering to make military service compulsory for women as well. Now THAT is karma! They could have voted to abolish it completely, but nope, they thought only men would ever have to do it. hahaha the joke will be on them.

Feminism is falling apart. Even women themselves are turning away from feminism because they are seeing it for what it actually is - misandry, lies, double standards, self entitlement, and victimisation. Have a look at the group "women against feminism" on facebook which has over 30k members.

Give it about 5 more years, and I reckon feminism will be dead. Good riddance.
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  #106  
Old 08.03.2015, 18:22
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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The main reason I am now in the education field is because it allows me to be at home after school and during the holidays. And I can assure you that it is not just me. Its that simple.

(Prior to having children and then retraining as an early years music educator, I was a lawyer.)
One of my sisters was an accountant, but went back to school to become a teacher. Her kids are now grown and out of the house, but she stays with teaching, despite the lower pay.

Another of my sisters has always been an accountant, and a partner in her firm, and her husband a stay at home dad. In his spare time, he built their dream house, barn, most of their furniture, etc.

Whatever works for you.

Tom
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  #107  
Old 08.03.2015, 18:23
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Busy here as well, I have to drag the wife out to vote!

Tom
Why don't you do like Wooli- and fill in the vote bulletins for all the women if your life- much easier hey! à la Suisse!

Indeed, whatever works for you- as long as it is a true and not imposed, choice. I also chose to go into teaching, partly for the reasons stated- but not only was it my choice, but OH freely agreed to make big changes in his own life to enable me to make said choice. Respect.
Remember 'Educating Rita' - so many men will not, or cannot, adapt to enable partners and wives to go beyond motherhood, if this is what they want (and I totally agree that not all do so- but it should be a true choice).

Partly a generational thing perhaps. My mother was the only mother to have a job outside the home, and a very interesting one at that. A true inspiration. She grew up in the days when women didn't work (born 1915), let alone drive and commute to the 'big' town to do so. It is only now, back in my native area- that I learn from old school friends how much they admired her, and envied me for having such a fabulous and inspirational, interesting mother.
And even I grew up in a Switzerland when women DID NOT HAVE THE VOTE- no wonder we dreamt this would change.

Last edited by Odile; 08.03.2015 at 18:34.
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  #108  
Old 08.03.2015, 18:26
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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One of my sisters was an accountant, but went back to school to become a teacher. Her kids are now grown and out of the house, but she stays with teaching, despite the lower pay.
12 weeks' holiday a year aren't to be sneezed at.
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  #109  
Old 08.03.2015, 18:29
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Why don't you do like Wooli- and fill in the vote bulletins for all the women if your life- much easier hey! à la Suisse!
Umm, I do (and did so before I became Swiss).

I even fill out the birth date stuff on the form, she just has to sign it!

Tom
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Old 08.03.2015, 18:40
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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And even I grew up in a Switzerland when women DID NOT HAVE THE VOTE- no wonder we dreamt this would change.
Women didn't have the vote in Switzerland because they weren't participating in military service. Historically, the right to vote in many countries has always been tied to conscription. But some feminists in switzerland decided they wanted to cherry pick the benefit of being allowed to vote, without having to participate in military service. This cherry picking is exactly what feminism is all about - all the benefits and none of the responsibilities.

Women should still not have the right to vote in Switzerland until they are also forced to do military service. Take the vote away from women in Switzerland until they agree to participate in military service.
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  #111  
Old 08.03.2015, 18:42
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Women should still not have the right to vote in Switzerland until they are also forced to do military service.
Don't you think the gentlemen of Switzerland would be a bit miffed to see their meagre few weeks of peace and quiet shattered by the arrival of a bunch of garrulous termagants?

Come on, man: think it through!
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  #112  
Old 08.03.2015, 18:45
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

What an absolute crock of shit.

There should be one day in the year and call it IiwyflgodD.


International *insert whatever you feel like getting offended by* Day.
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  #113  
Old 08.03.2015, 18:49
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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also that there are still only about 20% of Senior managers who are women, and a large part of them are in education, social work and health related professions.
Maybe in the case of the other 80% the women who did go for the jobs simply weren't good enough?
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  #114  
Old 08.03.2015, 19:24
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Women didn't have the vote in Switzerland because they weren't participating in military service.
Nooo. Women didn't have the vote federally for one simple reason: the federal constitution (of 1848, and then of 1874) restricted that right to men. Not "men who served in the military", just "men over 20 who were not barred from voting by their canton of residence". Criteria imposed by the cantons varied quite a lot (and still do - for example 16-year-olds have the vote where I live, not in most (any?) other cantons.)

Similarly women did not participate in military service because the same federal constitution did not tell them to: "jeder Schweizer ist wehrpflichtig" also only refers to men.

That's it. That's all. Grammatical parallelism. No explicit connection is made between the two activities, at least not at the federal level. (If memory serves some cantons did have it as a requirement. In those cantons a man unfit for military service would have been equally disenfranchised. Is this really the state of affairs you want to bring back?)
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  #115  
Old 08.03.2015, 20:43
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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Women didn't have the vote in Switzerland because they weren't participating in military service. Historically, the right to vote in many countries has always been tied to conscription. But some feminists in switzerland decided they wanted to cherry pick the benefit of being allowed to vote, without having to participate in military service. This cherry picking is exactly what feminism is all about - all the benefits and none of the responsibilities.

Women should still not have the right to vote in Switzerland until they are also forced to do military service. Take the vote away from women in Switzerland until they agree to participate in military service.
Swiss family right is ultimately derived from the ancient Romans.

In its original form the Pater Familias had absolute power (patria potestas, vitae necisque potestas) over all family members, which included married sons and their families and all their wealth, adoptees, slaves, etc. The execution of this power was usually (informally) restricted by society (and diluted over the centuries), except when it came to decide about which newborns were to (not) be abandoned, be it because of birth defects or because the family couldn't afford to raise them or because they were not male or what-have-you.

Part of that roman family right was that any individual, including women upon marrying a male member (which required the Pater Familias prior consent, he also had the right to revoke a marriage), who became family member received the family name.

This approach was clearly reflected in swiss marriage law, and civil law in general, until not too long ago (probably thanks to Napoleons "code civil", the obstetrician for CH as it's known today): The newly wed wife "assumed" the husbands name, which actually meant she was accepted into his family, his blood strain, his family tree. The husband was head of the family, the wife didn't have any political rights and also was only partially allowed to act as a legal grown-up - for instance, IIRC she needed his written consent to open a bank account in her own name. This resulted in unmarried women be called "Fräulein", woman-to-be, woman who never really reached fruition - so to say a wasted life because she didn't (legally) bear any children.

That approach was legally changed 2-3 generations ago, and put into legal action when, for example, women got passive and active political rights on a national level some 40 years ago.

To say that women shouldn't get the vote because they don't (have to) serve is nothing but a smokescreen to hide the attempt of turning back the hands of time. It's on the same intellectual level as somebody saying that (ex-)soldiers shouldn't be allowed to vote because they're dumb enough to risk their life for some silly patch of land that in most cases isn't even their own to begin with.
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  #116  
Old 08.03.2015, 21:17
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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The point BelgianMum,


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There should be one day in the year and call it IiwyflgodD.


International *insert whatever you feel like getting offended by* Day.
This was what I meant in my post which was not referring specifically to international women's day but to all these 'days' in general.

There are so many different days nowadays for all sorts of weird and wonderful things and I really don't see the point of them all. As I see it the overall impact is lost due to an overwhelming number if 'awareness' days for various things.
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Old 08.03.2015, 22:26
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

I "voted" with my feet and ears this afternoon and attended an inspiring and enjoyable charity concert - all proceeds going to a charity "All women are Divine" that supports Yennenga Progress One Stop Center in Burkona Faso. Of all the diseases and healthcare issues in the world, improving care for mothers and children/babies is one we know how to improve, but progress is an issue of funds and prioritising resources.

All of the music was composed and performed by women (and the girls choir from Adolf Fredriks musikklasser). The composers (24 in total) ranged from Clara Schumann, Lili Boulanger and Nadia Boulanger to Judith Weir and Inger Wikström, who explained her thought process behind the work she composed/performed. As the concert was is Stockholm there were mostly Swedish artists, but the composers spanned the globe.
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  #118  
Old 09.03.2015, 08:59
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

So, judging by my Facebook feed and various other links around the internets, it seems that "International Women's Day" is actually "International White Upper-Middle Class Women's Self-Congratulation Day".


I've seen pages about scientists, computer programmers, artists, composers, businesswomen, politicians... every single last one of whom is or was white, upper-middle class and given the kinds of steps up to greatness that most people - male or female - wouldn't even dare dream about.


It seems my comment on the first page was spot on.


When are we going to have an "awareness" day for the actual underprivileged amongst us?
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Old 09.03.2015, 09:07
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

If you judge 'actual' life on your FB feed, then I am not surprised you get the wrong picture/message of what is actually happening- really.
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Old 09.03.2015, 09:09
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Re: International Women's Day: (not) worth celebrating?

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If you judge 'actual' life on your FB feed, then I am not surprised you get the wrong picture/message of what is actually happening- really.

Nice dodge. Why don't you show me some evidence that yesterday was anything other than a posh-person's backslapping exercise?
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