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  #41  
Old 26.05.2015, 12:32
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Re: Bringing shame on yourself...with a smile!

It certainly is the same here. We were taught this at school and by our parents too. And I know my young neighbours and friends do the same with their kids and same with our local schools. Kids here are buses to and from school, and when it is a minibus, the older children are taught to give up their seat. Younger ones are told not to for safety reasons.
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  #42  
Old 26.05.2015, 12:40
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Re: Bringing shame on yourself...with a smile!

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But what has it got to do with her being Swiss, or whatever. The gesture/behaviour is the problem here not her nationality, oder?
Nothing, Odile. Someone was joking that OP's "character" was behaving like that because she was Russian. I mentioned the seemingly Swiss nationality only in response to that. Adrianlondon didn't find anything better to do than interpret it the way it suited him (again not surprised, but hey). That has nothing to do with the point I wanted to make, which was - I've seen worse than a mother with child not offering a place in an overcrowded train...
It's funny, on this forum full of prejudiced narrow-minded comments I am accused of xenophobia against the Swiss. I couldn't have heard a better joke today, thanks Adrianlondon.
That was a good one.

Last edited by greenmount; 26.05.2015 at 13:02.
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  #43  
Old 26.05.2015, 13:09
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Re: Bringing shame on yourself...with a smile!

Personally, I was always taught to give a seat up. Unfortunately (especially with my luck), this involves some assumptions/prejudices on who *should be getting a seat. It is a possibility that and older-middle age person could get offended by assuming that they need to sit down---or giving a seat to a female could be considered sexist by some. Perhaps even a young male could be shunned for not giving up their seat, but suffers from non-obvious ailment that leaves them deserving a sit down.

Maybe just playing the devils advocate here, but I usually only sit down in the first of a double free seat, to relieve myself of the decision altogether.
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  #44  
Old 26.05.2015, 13:24
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Re: Bringing shame on yourself...with a smile!

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A (youngish) Swiss woman putting her legs on the arm rests
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young Swiss cow ... she was a youngish Swiss cow ... I'm 100% sure.
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Adrianlondon didn't find anything better to do than interpret it the way it suited him
I based my interpretation on the words you typed. I guess what you meant to finally say was "I didn't word my post very well"
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  #45  
Old 26.05.2015, 13:27
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Re: Bringing shame on yourself...with a smile!

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I based my interpretation on the words you typed.
I already explained my reasons for mentioning her nationality. Nothing more to add. Have a good day!

And yes, am still outraged and wish to have said something to her. Tia.

P.S. I'm too lazy to start a thread like Taveau: "You know who you are young lady!" etc etc So I took the chance....
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  #46  
Old 26.05.2015, 13:46
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Re: Bringing shame on yourself...with a smile!

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I'm starting to think this is a British concept. When I was a child it was a given and we were brought up to do this ( I think there were even notices on the bus to this effect) but I don't think it was the same in other places based on the replies on here and in other places.
My wife does it (sits one of our kids on her lap if the train is full) and she's Swiss, not British.

I don't think good manners and respect for others has international boundaries

Having said that, the pushing in done in queues seems quite acceptable here but not so in other countries.
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  #47  
Old 26.05.2015, 13:48
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Re: Bringing shame on yourself...with a smile!

No, it is done all over the world apart from UK, actually
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  #48  
Old 26.05.2015, 13:50
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Re: Bringing shame on yourself...with a smile!

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No, it is done all over the world apart from UK, actually
Actually it's not*. And the Swiss are definitely the worst and most ill-mannered with it.

*Though Italians do it with their cars.
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  #49  
Old 26.05.2015, 13:57
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Re: Bringing shame on yourself...with a smile!

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My wife does it (sits one of our kids on her lap if the train is full) and she's Swiss, not British.

.
It seemed to be the North Americans ( in a discussion elsewhere) who thought that children should be sitting in a seat on the bus/tram/train even when others were standing. Not just the odd one or two but all of them so I probably should have said a European concept rather than a British one.
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  #50  
Old 26.05.2015, 15:24
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Re: Bringing shame on yourself...with a smile!

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Having said that, the pushing in done in queues seems quite acceptable here but not so in other countries.
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No, it is done all over the world apart from UK, actually
Actually it's not*. And the Swiss are definitely the worst and most ill-mannered with it.

*Though Italians do it with their cars.
Nice joke.

Ever been to Greece? I mean, not just in a tourist ghetto but at a rural post office just before a holiday, a busy ferry ticket counter or the like, especially in places where, due to fluency in the local language, you may be taken for a national?

Please don't get me wrong. Greeks are very kind people, even more so towards foreigners, but when it comes to being the first to be served, they know no mercy. Queuing in Switzerland is paradise next to that kind of literally physical close-combat.

I must admit my experience is limited to Athens and just a few areas out in the Aegean sticks, but there you are expected to use your elbows unless you want to be waiting until they close the office.

Just like, for instance, the Swiss stare or the much smaller personal space in crowded places compared to, say, the USA, these are things you just have to live with in certain countries. It's normal behavior there. The same people may make fun of some other behavioral patterns in your own country, like continental Europeans mocking at the (non-)usage of the left hand while forking one's meal, which actually goes back to the times before the invention of toilet paper.

I do not approve the behavior mentioned in the OP, though, that being a matter of basic human interaction.
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  #51  
Old 26.05.2015, 15:26
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Re: Bringing shame on yourself...with a smile!

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It seemed to be the North Americans ( in a discussion elsewhere) who thought that children should be sitting in a seat on the bus/tram/train even when others were standing. Not just the odd one or two but all of them so I probably should have said a European concept rather than a British one.
Back home there are people offering their places to kids (well, small kids especially).Or pregnant women, elderly, disabled but that's expected anywhere. Although when I was little I remember one older lady "scolding" me because I sat (I was about 5 and whining) while my mother was standing. So, it's up to everyone at the end of the day. (should add that I personally always offer my place to kids or mothers with babies)
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  #52  
Old 26.05.2015, 15:53
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Re: Bringing shame on yourself...with a smile!

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Perhaps even a young male could be shunned for not giving up their seat, but suffers from non-obvious ailment that leaves them deserving a sit down.
Yes. And in this case no-one knows if the mother had a medical or other reason for remaining seated.

When I had broken my back I wore an external 'corset' frame for some months, and if using public transport was nearly always offered a seat, which I gratefully accepted. But when I didn't need to wear it any more, but still was suffering a lot, it was much more difficult, as people would just assume that I was a fit and young (-ish, well I'm not but I do look younger than my age) male and should take second place, whereas I actually needed it more than most pregnant women or old folks.

So do think twice or more before condemning someone when you don't know their own circumstances.

But I agree that in general children above a certain age ought to be giving up their seats for older and more needy types, and it _sounds_ like there was no excuse in this case.
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  #53  
Old 26.05.2015, 16:42
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Re: Bringing shame on yourself...with a smile!

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Ever been to Greece? I mean, not just in a tourist ghetto but at a rural post office just before a holiday, a busy ferry ticket counter or the like, especially in places where, due to fluency in the local language, you may be taken for a national?
I've been to quite a few countries but haven't been to Greece. I'm really sure I would have noticed queue-pushing if it happened to the extent it happens here.

Quite a few people have commented on it here so it's not as it's just me calling the Swiss out on their appalling lack of manners in this respect.

My kids have almost been in tears when they've been barged out of the way by some middle-aged local who's decided that their needs are more important than anyone else's.
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  #54  
Old 26.05.2015, 17:21
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Re: Bringing shame on yourself...with a smile!

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I've been to quite a few countries but haven't been to Greece. I'm really sure I would have noticed queue-pushing if it happened to the extent it happens here.

Quite a few people have commented on it here so it's not as it's just me calling the Swiss out on their appalling lack of manners in this respect.

My kids have almost been in tears when they've been barged out of the way by some middle-aged local who's decided that their needs are more important than anyone else's.
I don't know where you've been going to witness this, but on 15 years here it's not something that I've ever noticed. Maybe you just go to more places with queues than I do?

Or maybe, and yes, I think I've got it now, you're just not very good at constructive queuing technique. Years of guiding ski groups around the mountains of France and CH have taught me the best ways to be defensive without causing offence (wearing a uniform doesn't help, but makes you stand out if you overstep the mark).
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Old 26.05.2015, 17:34
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Re: Bringing shame on yourself...with a smile!

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Or maybe, and yes, I think I've got it now, you're just not very good at constructive queuing technique. Years of guiding ski groups around the mountains of France and CH have taught me the best ways to be defensive without causing offence (wearing a uniform doesn't help, but makes you stand out if you overstep the mark).
You mean "pushing-in" ?
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Old 26.05.2015, 17:40
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Re: Bringing shame on yourself...with a smile!

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Were these two girls the only ones who were seated in that train? You have all my understanding, but what strikes me here is the fact that you seemed to have focused your entire outrage on this silly woman. Surely there could have been at least a few other people who could have offered their seats?


It's the fact that she could have so easily have taken her child on her lap that bothered me so much. A lot of people sitting down were no fresh chickens, but true that one or two could have left their seats. The problem is that they probably wondered to go where, as people were even standing in between people who were sitting.
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Old 26.05.2015, 17:42
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Re: Bringing shame on yourself...with a smile!

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No, it's common courtesy to sit your young child on your lap if the train or bus is full.

So now you know.


Thank you Tom! It seemed pretty obvious to me but alas not to everyone.
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Old 26.05.2015, 17:52
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Re: Bringing shame on yourself...with a smile!

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Nothing, Odile. Someone was joking that OP's "character" was behaving like that because she was Russian. I mentioned the seemingly Swiss nationality only in response to that. Adrianlondon didn't find anything better to do than interpret it the way it suited him (again not surprised, but hey). That has nothing to do with the point I wanted to make, which was - I've seen worse than a mother with child not offering a place in an overcrowded train...
It's funny, on this forum full of prejudiced narrow-minded comments I am accused of xenophobia against the Swiss. I couldn't have heard a better joke today, thanks Adrianlondon.
That was a good one.


Funny how 3 pages on, words get a little twisted. I mentioned that she spoke Russian (that I can recognise, having 3 long time Russian friends who taught me a bit of their language), hoping (a bit far fetched, I know!) that if she ever read this forum, she would have not trouble recognising herself. I never insinuated that her behaviour was the result of her nationality.
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Old 26.05.2015, 22:39
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Re: Bringing shame on yourself...with a smile!

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Funny how 3 pages on, words get a little twisted. I mentioned that she spoke Russian (that I can recognise, having 3 long time Russian friends who taught me a bit of their language), hoping (a bit far fetched, I know!) that if she ever read this forum, she would have not trouble recognising herself. I never insinuated that her behaviour was the result of her nationality.
Where did I say it was you? It was someone else who made that joke.. I take it you've read between lines as adrianlondon.
As you, I was dumbfounded at one person's behaviour...mine happen to be Swiss (wow, how did I dare mentioning her nationality on EF- the bastion of PCness and love for the Swiss people), yours - Russian. It was nice of you that you care about others, thumbs up.
So, that's all taveau, no need to continue this thing. Each to their own, and if you or I didn't say anything on the spot, it's ridiculous to have this discussion/storm in a glass of water now...as if we don't know the world it's not a perfect place..


Btw.

See for yourself...

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Because she was talking in Russian. She may be even related to Putin; and regardless she surely is an evil commie.

Seriously now -> the last person in this train that should make space is probably a young child (or mother with a child). I just can not believe that there was noone else in the train not able to stand.
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I agree with you. Although, in situations like this you'd have expected her to "fraternise" with the person who had a child in his arms and make some room next to her. But, technically, she didn't do anything wrong.
I've seen worse. A (youngish) Swiss woman putting her legs on the arm rests of the seat in front of her, in a cinema, where a child was seated (I'm surprised the parents didn't say anything, although they looked very puzzled at her). Things like that you know. Nothing surprises me anymore.

Last edited by greenmount; 26.05.2015 at 23:11.
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  #60  
Old 27.05.2015, 09:48
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Re: Bringing shame on yourself...with a smile!

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To the woman who was on the packed to the brim train between Cully and Lausanne yesterday, around 18h50: you were sitting with your 6-7 year old child next to you, staring at crushed passengers, smiling. It was critical: you cannot possibly have missed the elderly gentleman who was passing out or the man standing right next to you with a toddler in his arms, his wife sobbing quietly behind him because people could hardly breathe.


Not for one second did you think that by taking your child on your lap you would have made a big difference to the suffering of these people. No, you pretended the world did not exist and continued babbling (in Russian?). Had I been a bit nearer and able to move, I would have lifted you off your seat and taught you some manners. Shame on you!
I can go one better! A couple of weeks back I had to tell two teacher on an early morning bus in Zurich to get their kids out of the handicapped seating and let the three old folks (all with walking sticks etc...) sit down. The first response was "Oh we'll be getting off in a few stops"! At which point I became very loud and they thought better of it!
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