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Old 08.09.2015, 11:09
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Re: Rubbish/recycling Compliance (thread split)

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Probably. But i have nowhere to store paper for months on end. We don't all live in villas with a basement!!
Exactly, and storing up large amounts of paper and cardboard in cellars etc. is also a fire hazard anyway and should be avoided. Another reason why I get rid of all paper and card as soon as possible and do not wait for the schoolchildren once every three months to come and take it, - moreover if you put anything out they don't like it stays there a few more days until someone else has to come and clear the mess up!
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Old 08.09.2015, 11:10
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Re: Rubbish/recycling Compliance (thread split)

Meh.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck!
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  #63  
Old 08.09.2015, 11:14
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Re: Rubbish/recycling Compliance (thread split)

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Meh.
I fail to see how this post actually contributes to the ongoing discussion.
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Old 08.09.2015, 11:15
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Re: Rubbish/recycling Compliance (thread split)

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I fail to see how this post actually contributes to the ongoing discussion.
Ummm... Meh?
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Old 08.09.2015, 11:18
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Re: Rubbish/recycling Compliance (thread split)

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Exactly, and storing up large amounts of paper and cardboard in cellars etc. is also a fire hazard anyway and should be avoided. Another reason why I get rid of all paper and card as soon as possible and do not wait for the schoolchildren once every three months to come and take it, - moreover if you put anything out they don't like it stays there a few more days until someone else has to come and clear the mess up!
I store paper, styrofoam, suitcases, vinyl and other materials that can easily burn but there never was a hazard of fire in the basement.

Now stop using those ridiculous excuses and recycle like the men should do
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Old 08.09.2015, 11:23
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Re: Rubbish/recycling Compliance (thread split)

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And you pay through the nose for this service, with one of the highest income tax rates in Switzerland. Wouldn't you rather pay for what you need (use)? (Plumtree need not answer.)
We have communal paper and rubbish bins in which we can dump stuff any day of the week and it is collected weekly. We don't have to tie anything up with string and we buy the 35L communal rubbish bags at 1.70 a pop. Our commune has one of the lower tax rates in the canton.
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Old 08.09.2015, 11:24
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Re: Rubbish/recycling Compliance (thread split)

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I store paper, styrofoam, suitcases, vinyl and other materials that can easily burn but there never was a hazard of fire in the basement.
Well basically there is always a fire hazard/risk. Large amounts of dry paper and card stored up, make things worse. I think you'd prefer not to see your home burning down or a loved one die of smoke inhalation. Precaution/prevention is better than clearing up the mess after the fire.
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Now stop using those ridiculous excuses and recycle like the men should do
Send me a man and a van to take my trash away and it will be recycled correctly and legally. But you need to send him free of charge and three times a week. Anything less and we don't have a deal.

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We have communal paper and rubbish bins in which we can dump stuff any day of the week and it is collected weekly. We don't have to tie anything up with string and we buy the 35L communal rubbish bags at 1.70 a pop. Our commune has one of the lower tax rates in the canton.
Ours are more than double that, even the smallest ones (17l) are more expensive than your 35l ones.
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Old 08.09.2015, 11:26
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Re: Rubbish/recycling Compliance (thread split)

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It may reduce consumption of packaging materials in part, but in essence it only shifts the problem elsewhere. How? The same amount of packaging, if not more, is actually purchased/consumed, it's just that it ends up in different places, maybe some of it in the shop where it came from, maybe some of it in the recycling, some of it dumped illegally, some of it in the trash still. The fact remains that the present system generates a new and growing problem: by just shifting the refuse/waste/packaging elsewhere, people dump illegally to save money. Surely you saw just how many articles there are in the press about this?

A resident of Switzerland produces on average 690kg of refuse. http://www.handelszeitung.ch/politik...-abfall-640216
Zürisacks are less expensive than many other places' sacks. There are towns where the per sack price is more than double that of Zurich! You obviously have no idea! Switzerland is not just about rich expats (who barely notice any trash problems as they have so much money it doesn't concern them) and Zurich. This problem is not just about Zurich!! Did you actually look at any of the articles posted higher up the thread?! Have you seen how many people are doing what they are doing, just to save money and/or keep Switzerland clean and tidy?! Or they're doing it just to keep their little community clean but have no care for when they travel: http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/mit...id3616480.html

Nonsense! You may be just a visitor passing through, but I have my own home here and have nowhere else to go/nowhere else I want to be. I have spent more years living in Switzerland than any other country! Nothing prohibits me from merely voicing an opinion on this matter!

Absolute poppycock! I have an idea where it is (recycling point), but do not have transport to get to it, have not been there and they do not take all of the different materials that need to be recycled anyway! Some Gemeindes seem set out to make it as hard and unfriendly for the user/resident as possible. Things here are certainly not easy for us. The elderly, frail, infirm and poor are particularly hit. Making the poor poorer is just wrong!
Bonfires are sometimes visible in the evening, my neighbour has an allotment and told me that it goes on, it is apparently not illegal and she often takes a bicycle-basket full of trash down in the evening to get rid of along with garden waste!

So if those taxes are income-based, why can't the refuse tax also be? Why can't the refuse tax be included in the municipal taxes in every town, just like it used to be, in every town? There are not many towns where it still is.

And where do I want to be according to you? Your remarks are totally preposterous!

You have absolutely no idea!

Stealing is not right. But is not buying the special taxed sacks and/or dumping small amounts of cardboard almost daily in an ordinary rubbish bin the same as stealing?
People are obviously doing it to save money. I agree not all of those people need to save that money and can really afford to do things properly. The fact remains they continue to do so. Just look at how many take their trash back to Germany in black sacks and dump it in front of supermarkets. How is it they can afford a car and petrol to cross-border shop yet not afford to buy the rubbish sacks?!
The fact in essence is, they do it, because they know they can get away with it! Simple! This is why I believe the current system doesn't work properly.
For those on a very low income, I feel the sacks should not be taxed. This would reduce in part illegal dumping. However only in part.
Those people who go shopping in Germany in their cars (I do not have the luxury of a vehicle) with black sacks full to the brim of all kinds of trash and recyclables, in the boot ready to dump in that Aldi Süd bin despite the sign on the bin flap saying it's forbidden, or in the big Lidl container outside the door, will simply continue to do so. You can't stop them. Only abolishing the taxed-sacks system totally will stop that, as you will then, and only then, remove the incentive to 'save money by illegally dumping'.

I did mention, I do not know if it is really illegal to dump small quantities of this sort of refuse in those bins. I do know that what I do is better than what others do who dump it on the ground. I also know that the quantity I have to dispose of can't fit into the sacks available without me having to spend a ridiculous amount. Moreover, in theory, cardboard isn't even meant to be put in the taxed sacks, it is meant to go to that collection point I can't get to without transport! Maybe my neighbours put theirs into the taxed-sacks, but have a lot of money and so don't worry about it. I know that it is wrong to do that too, but the contents of taxed sacks are not checked here, they are just concerned you pay the tax by using the right sacks.

I do do my share in society and my community. You have absolutely no idea. The comments posted by the other user were rude, resorting to rudeness is also wrong.

Milk, bread and Rösti are not 100% tax. Foodstuffs have nothing to do with the discussion. The special refuse sacks system is 100% tax, a tax which has been invented. Those sacks also have to be specially printed, another unnecessary cost slapped on the taxpayer. Refuse collection tax used to be included everywhere in municipal taxes and wasn't a separate charge. Tell me if ordinary taxes are income based, why that one can't be too?

But many people are also dumping illegally, whether in their towns, or taking it across the border in their big/expensive cars, because they know they can get away with it.

I don't have a car. If you look at some of the articles posted, you will see that people are driving across the border to supermarket car parks and dumping rubbish there. Shopping trolleys full of rubbish dumped in woodland near Swiss towns, along with furniture, TV sets, fridges etc. (none of this has anything to do with me either, - I have no way of getting that stuff there and wouldn't want to do that!). Nobody can deny that all of this is becoming a real problem. Many people in larger towns and cities, and it seems so many expats, seem to think that these problems don't exist, or as mentioned, since they earn so much, they are not problems that concern them.
Why for example should the residents of southern Germany have to continually clear up the illegally dumped muck from the residents of northern Switzerland? Nobody is looking at that side of things. I am pointing that out. I am not part of it though in any way.


Suggested improvement in order to obtain partial results: removal of refuse tax for those on low/very low incomes.

Suggested improvements for entirely better results: removal of refuse tax altogether, include it in municipal taxes as it was previously (thus rendering it income based), same system nationwide. No more 'Abfalltourismus' either.
Deposit on all aluminium/steel cans, tins, glass jars/bottles and plastic bottles/containers - 99% of items go back to the store, result: recycling rates go up, refuse to be collected by municipalities goes down.
Abolish all special tax-stickers for bins, large items, all items collected with ordinary refuse, result - no more mattresses, furniture, TV sets, fridges dumped in wooded areas!


Should my colleague have been treated like a criminal and fined for being seen and reported (via a rental car number registration plate) dropping off plastic bottles at a unmanned recycling point in a Gemeinde where she didn't reside? On one hand she was doing the right thing by recycling. On the other hand she was causing more material for the Gemeinde she happened to be passing through!
Her argument was this (it happened in Ticino): Is a family from ZH supposed to collect, during their 2 week vacation in Ticino, all of their recycling and take it back (by car or even by train) to ZH to dispose of 'legally'? There are rules, but there are also regulations that are unfriendly and are bordering on insanity. Such draconian rules also drive the individual to exasperation, and ultimately to dump stuff haphazardly and not to recycle. Everyone wants to get rid of all refuse as quickly as possible, storing it in households is also a fire risk and a health hazard.
Jesus Christ.

Last edited by glowjupiter; 08.09.2015 at 17:09.
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  #69  
Old 08.09.2015, 11:26
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Re: Rubbish/recycling Compliance (thread split)

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Send me a man and a van to take my trash away and it will be recycled correctly and legally. But you need to send him free of charge and three times a week. Anything less and we don't have a deal.
So you're happy to (continue to) be regarded as an antisocial jerk, then?
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Old 08.09.2015, 11:30
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Re: Rubbish/recycling Compliance (thread split)

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...
Send me a man and a van to take my trash away and it will be recycled correctly and legally. But you need to send him free of charge and three times a week. Anything less and we don't have a deal.
...
Several pages down ... Which part of this thread you didn't get that the things don't come in life for free, huh? Especially trash removal!
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Old 08.09.2015, 11:34
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Re: Rubbish/recycling Compliance (thread split)

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So you're happy to (continue to) be regarded as an antisocial jerk, then?
It doesn't matter to me what I am regarded as by others/persons who don't know me. I am what I am and what I am needs no excuses! In essence, you don't know me or what I have been through or am going through, but I can assure, I do help, I do do my bit, I do do what I can. I reiterate: I am not one of those people who drive to wooded areas to dump fridges and other refuse at night, nor do I dump rubbish like many other cross-border shoppers in front of supermarkets in Germany. That is the point.
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Several pages down ... Which part of this thread you didn't get that the things don't come in life for free, huh? Especially trash removal!
I never said it was free. It isn't. It wasn't previously. But it previously was included in the ordinary municipal taxes.
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Old 08.09.2015, 12:15
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Re: Rubbish/recycling Compliance (thread split)

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I never said it was free. It isn't. It wasn't previously. But it previously was included in the ordinary municipal taxes.
The problem with that is that not everyone produces exact same amount therefore pay-as-you-go option is much more fair in my opinion.

It is not automated system and one should take civic pride. Nobody will come to rummage thru your house and empty these sacks for you. It is like a self-service that you regulate in your own house-hold and decide about amount you take out. Some folks leave those bags half empty on the collection day, whereas we try to efficently fill them up as much as possible. Not to menion exercise part, as you get up first thing in the morning when waken up with sound of rooster reminding you to take out these bags. Sheer pleasure, I tell ya ...
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  #73  
Old 08.09.2015, 12:28
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Re: Rubbish/recycling Compliance (thread split)

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Stealing is not right. But is not buying the special taxed sacks and/or dumping small amounts of cardboard almost daily in an ordinary rubbish bin the same as stealing?
People are obviously doing it to save money. I agree not all of those people need to save that money and can really afford to do things properly. The fact remains they continue to do so. Just look at how many take their trash back to Germany in black sacks and dump it in front of supermarkets. How is it they can afford a car and petrol to cross-border shop yet not afford to buy the rubbish sacks?!
The fact in essence is, they do it, because they know they can get away with it! Simple! This is why I believe the current system doesn't work properly.
For those on a very low income, I feel the sacks should not be taxed. This would reduce in part illegal dumping. However only in part.
Those people who go shopping in Germany in their cars (I do not have the luxury of a vehicle) with black sacks full to the brim of all kinds of trash and recyclables, in the boot ready to dump in that Aldi Süd bin despite the sign on the bin flap saying it's forbidden, or in the big Lidl container outside the door, will simply continue to do so. You can't stop them. Only abolishing the taxed-sacks system totally will stop that, as you will then, and only then, remove the incentive to 'save money by illegally dumping'.

I did mention, I do not know if it is really illegal to dump small quantities of this sort of refuse in those bins. I do know that what I do is better than what others do who dump it on the ground. I also know that the quantity I have to dispose of can't fit into the sacks available without me having to spend a ridiculous amount. Moreover, in theory, cardboard isn't even meant to be put in the taxed sacks, it is meant to go to that collection point I can't get to without transport!
Maybe my neighbours put theirs into the taxed-sacks, but have a lot of money and so don't worry about it. I know that it is wrong to do that too, but the contents of taxed sacks are not checked here, they are just concerned you pay the tax by using the right sacks.

I do do my share in society and my community. You have absolutely no idea. The comments posted by the other user were rude, resorting to rudeness is also wrong.

Milk, bread and Rösti are not 100% tax. Foodstuffs have nothing to do with the discussion. The special refuse sacks system is 100% tax, a tax which has been invented. Those sacks also have to be specially printed, another unnecessary cost slapped on the taxpayer. Refuse collection tax used to be included everywhere in municipal taxes and wasn't a separate charge. Tell me if ordinary taxes are income based, why that one can't be too?

But many people are also dumping illegally, whether in their towns, or taking it across the border in their big/expensive cars, because they know they can get away with it.

I don't have a car. If you look at some of the articles posted, you will see that people are driving across the border to supermarket car parks and dumping rubbish there. Shopping trolleys full of rubbish dumped in woodland near Swiss towns, along with furniture, TV sets, fridges etc. (none of this has anything to do with me either, - I have no way of getting that stuff there and wouldn't want to do that!). Nobody can deny that all of this is becoming a real problem. Many people in larger towns and cities, and it seems so many expats, seem to think that these problems don't exist, or as mentioned, since they earn so much, they are not problems that concern them.
Why for example should the residents of southern Germany have to continually clear up the illegally dumped muck from the residents of northern Switzerland? Nobody is looking at that side of things. I am pointing that out. I am not part of it though in any way.


Suggested improvement in order to obtain partial results: removal of refuse tax for those on low/very low incomes.

Suggested improvements for entirely better results: removal of refuse tax altogether, include it in municipal taxes as it was previously (thus rendering it income based), same system nationwide. No more 'Abfalltourismus' either.
Deposit on all aluminium/steel cans, tins, glass jars/bottles and plastic bottles/containers - 99% of items go back to the store, result: recycling rates go up, refuse to be collected by municipalities goes down.
Abolish all special tax-stickers for bins, large items, all items collected with ordinary refuse, result - no more mattresses, furniture, TV sets, fridges dumped in wooded areas!


Should my colleague have been treated like a criminal and fined for being seen and reported (via a rental car number registration plate) dropping off plastic bottles at a unmanned recycling point in a Gemeinde where she didn't reside? On one hand she was doing the right thing by recycling. On the other hand she was causing more material for the Gemeinde she happened to be passing through!
Her argument was this (it happened in Ticino): Is a family from ZH supposed to collect, during their 2 week vacation in Ticino, all of their recycling and take it back (by car or even by train) to ZH to dispose of 'legally'? There are rules, but there are also regulations that are unfriendly and are bordering on insanity. Such draconian rules also drive the individual to exasperation, and ultimately to dump stuff haphazardly and not to recycle. Everyone wants to get rid of all refuse as quickly as possible, storing it in households is also a fire risk and a health hazard.
I emboldened the parts of your speech that I find a bit strange/antisocial.

About dumping personal garbage in public rubbish bins it is illegal - our Gemeinde has had to remove the public bins because of this behaviour by some people. The bins are there for those sitting on the benches/eating a take-away/etc.
When they got overloaded with filled general household garbage bags it proved too much for the local collection.

The idea behind charging for refuse bags is excellent, imo. Because one only respects what one has paid for!

Why should those on a lower income pay less for garbage disposal? Because they "should" be living on a lower consuming level, obviously, and not having the end results of too much packaging buying (?)

Really, those on low incomes "should not" be in a position to produce too much garbage. From my observations, it is only those who are permanently buying new stuff, that have too much cardboard/polystyrene/packaging to dispose of. Of course one may always remove the packaging in the shop first. But not that easy then to get the Ikea stuff/new TV/ HI-fi system/etc home in public transport!

My O/H and I dispose of ONE bag of "taxed" garbage per month - which is 2x 2 weekly cheap bin bags, that contain only plastics. Yes, recycling takes time and effort, and is almost a small part-time occupation!

Despite your opinion that garbage bags are not inspected, let me say "Yes they are, but randomly" For instance glass is FORBIDDEN in the taxed bags. If one has included any documentation in garbage containing one`s name, one will be fined.

About the over border "dumping" outside Lidl/Aldi - those shops accept back ALL their packaging - so their customers keep returning to shop while disposing of their packagings. It is not dumping.

In Swiss shops it is not obligatory that one takes home all the packaging, you may remove it in shop, if so wishing.

I find that if one buys only/mainly fresh produce - one does not have much in the way of garbage. Avoid buying prepackaged instant foods, bottled or canned goods.

On recycle days in my part of the world, I see many folk who don`t have cars, walking with a small trailer to the dump, or cycling with a box of trash on their carriers, or even just regularly taking a walk there with a manageable amount of recycles.

This is how this country functions. You can`t change the way it is. You can only change your own attitude, and try to adapt.
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Old 08.09.2015, 12:34
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Re: Rubbish/recycling Compliance (thread split)

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It doesn't matter to me what I am regarded as by others/persons who don't know me. I am what I am and what I am needs no excuses! In essence, you don't know me or what I have been through or am going through, but I can assure, I do help, I do do my bit, I do do what I can. I reiterate: I am not one of those people who drive to wooded areas to dump fridges and other refuse at night, nor do I dump rubbish like many other cross-border shoppers in front of supermarkets in Germany. That is the point.

I never said it was free. It isn't. It wasn't previously. But it previously was included in the ordinary municipal taxes.
Well, obviously, because you don`t own a car, you have not yet dumped stuff in the forests Most people just take the old appliance back to the shop where they bought the new stuff, or have it collected when the new is delivered.

As I stated previously, do not look askance at the over-border-shoppers - they are not "dumping" their rubbish. If you wash out the plastic wrappers and cans, and collect all your cardboard coverings, you can also dump your stuff back at Lidl/Aldi - and also collect the 25c deposit on each Pet bottle.

What exactly is it you are referring to when you say "ordinary municipal taxes"? Where the rubbish collection fee should be included in? There are no "rates and taxes" in this land (that I`m aware of) - just a hell of a lot of costs and "taxes" added to things like water/electricity upgrades/installations/building alterations/etc that property owners have to pay, to keep up to date with town norms.

Last edited by smoky; 08.09.2015 at 12:39. Reason: last sentence added.
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Old 08.09.2015, 12:49
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Re: The Swiss Rules you love to break

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I don't have a salary as I don't work. Most prices here are, in essence, extraordinarily higher than elsewhere and disproportionately so, a huge (and so very much larger than elsewhere) percentage of the price is mere profit.
!
So, you don`t have a salary as you don`t work. How do you manage to produce SO much garbage?

Sorry, I`ve just joined this discussion, and am gobsmacked at your attitude!
Hence my many replies to your argument.

I also don`t work. So I have time to buy sensibly, to sort my garbage, to take a walk/bike ride to the dump with a small quantity. Sometimes I do use the car but only if we have a lot of bottles (alcohol ones mostly)
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Old 08.09.2015, 13:09
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Re: Rubbish/recycling Compliance (thread split)

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Well, obviously, because you don`t own a car, you have not yet dumped stuff in the forests
And wouldn't do it even if I had a car. It is obviously wrong and spoils nature and the woodland. If people can get it as far as the woodland, why can't they get it back to a point of sale which will accept it for free? It's baffling, but it still goes on!
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What exactly is it you are referring to when you say "ordinary municipal taxes"? Where the rubbish collection fee should be included in? There are no "rates and taxes" in this land (that I`m aware of) - just a hell of a lot of costs and "taxes" added to things like water/electricity upgrades/installations/building alterations/etc that property owners have to pay, to keep up to date with town norms.
The Gemeinde/municipal taxes, (Steuerfuss percentage determines also how much you pay).
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About the over border "dumping" outside Lidl/Aldi - those shops accept back ALL their packaging - so their customers keep returning to shop while disposing of their packagings. It is not dumping.
It is dumping and it is illegal when it is clearly stated there that it is forbidden to dump household waste. Obviously you haven't seen anyone doing it. I have, several times. Full boxes as well as several bags of rubbish - not necessarily even from that store, but packaging from elsewhere, from Switzerland even and from online purchases. Zalando and Amazon boxes. Some even with the names and addresses still on them. That should all be recycled in the Swiss town.
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Why should those on a lower income pay less for garbage disposal? Because they "should" be living on a lower consuming level, obviously, and not having the end results of too much packaging buying (?)
Really, those on low incomes "should not" be in a position to produce too much garbage. From my observations, it is only those who are permanently buying new stuff, that have too much cardboard/polystyrene/packaging to dispose of. Of course one may always remove the packaging in the shop first. But not that easy then to get the Ikea stuff/new TV/ HI-fi system/etc home in public transport!
It is not forbidden for those on a low income to purchase things that are packaged. It is wrong to make the vulnerable individuals of society pay more, and wrong to make the poor poorer, by taxing them to throw away Sagex, medical equipment, incontinence pads, tampons, nappies, - to name just a few things that also take up space in the refuse sacks. Or is it forbidden to use/dispose of these too? You don't seem to realise that every household is different and every situation is different.
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You can`t change the way it is. You can only change your own attitude, and try to adapt.
I know that obviously I can't change the way things are! But I am able to voice an opinion about it and show how things don't work as they should. It is not wrong to do this. It generates a discussion.
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  #77  
Old 08.09.2015, 13:14
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Re: Rubbish/recycling Compliance (thread split)

Guys, if you are going to continue feeding the troll, at least do it with your household rubbish, and preferably sorted & neatly tied up...
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Old 08.09.2015, 13:22
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Re: The Swiss Rules you love to break

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So, you don`t have a salary as you don`t work. How do you manage to produce SO much garbage?

Sorry, I`ve just joined this discussion, and am gobsmacked at your attitude!
Hence my many replies to your argument.

I also don`t work. So I have time to buy sensibly, to sort my garbage, to take a walk/bike ride to the dump with a small quantity. Sometimes I do use the car but only if we have a lot of bottles (alcohol ones mostly)
Even people who don't work have incomes, fortunately. There also is more than one person in my household producing it, I also help an elderly neighbour (who is alone) with hers sometimes. I have time do it as well and although I would rather spend my time doing something else, I do do my bit. I can't ride a bicycle so no option there, and I can't carry large/heavy items such long distances. Our Gemeinde's set-up is totally unfriendly to the user, it's not nearby. My complaints are not unfounded, for if they were I wouldn't bother talking about them.
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Old 08.09.2015, 13:24
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Re: Rubbish/recycling Compliance (thread split)

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Guys, if you are going to continue feeding the troll, at least do it with your household rubbish, and preferably sorted & neatly tied up...
One man's trash is another man's treasure.


My only regret is that the OP's location (one to the left) and illegal damping points at location where I live


Last edited by jacek; 08.09.2015 at 13:34.
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Old 08.09.2015, 13:26
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Re: Rubbish/recycling Compliance (thread split)

I'll summarise this thread for everyone then it can be closed.

Taxed rubbish bags work for the vast majority of the population and EF contributors and it is a fair system.

BUT

There is a lack of disposal opportunities in a particular area which just happens to be where Plumtree lives so therefore the whole system needs to be changed even though it seems to be working pretty well for everyone else.
We should all subsidise rubbish disposal via our municipal taxes even if we personally produce no or very little rubbish.
There is some illegal dumping going in which also just happens to be in the area where Plumtree lives.
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