Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life
View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #6441  
Old 05.11.2016, 02:46
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Küsnacht, Switzerland
Posts: 2,103
Groaned at 61 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 5,145 Times in 2,345 Posts
Blueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
As it was sold, the government would abide by the result.
It never ceases to amaze me that, with all the publicity beforehand, that anyone could honestly believe the referendum was legally binding. Plenty of EF members knew that it wasn't...


Quote:
As I understand it the referendum result wouldn't be legally binding. There was a proposal that it should be but I don't think this has been included in the revised agreement.
20 Feb 2016
The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH


Quote:
The devil is in the fact that the referendum is non-binding! Yes, the UK citizenry will boldly vote and the government is pretty much free to ignore the results if they are inconvenient.
20 June 2016

How low will GBP go?


Quote:
No referendum result is legally binding, despite what brexiters say about getting back control, Parliament is and will be the only Sovereign lawmaking body in the UK.
22 June 2016

The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH


Quote:
This referendum was non-binding, and the Leave camp hasn't exactly won a resounding mandate, given the slim margin of victory.
24 June 2016

The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in CH
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Blueangel for this useful post:
  #6442  
Old 05.11.2016, 19:40
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 21,037
Groaned at 445 Times in 337 Posts
Thanked 23,989 Times in 10,888 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

For DB, like that, do you think?:

https://www.facebook.com/officialrus...4686179939700/
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Odile for this useful post:
  #6443  
Old 06.11.2016, 01:30
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Geneva
Posts: 520
Groaned at 42 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 878 Times in 506 Posts
Reb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

The Secret Barrister: Lord Chancellor is unfit for office and should resign
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank Reb77Br for this useful post:
  #6444  
Old 06.11.2016, 04:25
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Küsnacht, Switzerland
Posts: 2,103
Groaned at 61 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 5,145 Times in 2,345 Posts
Blueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Bloody brilliant article. This should be taught in every school in the land and be on the front pages of every newspaper by Monday. It won't, but I wish it was.

Also, 'pusillanimously' is a lovely word to add to my volcabulary.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank Blueangel for this useful post:
  #6445  
Old 06.11.2016, 14:01
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 21,037
Groaned at 445 Times in 337 Posts
Thanked 23,989 Times in 10,888 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

So 'Power to the people' - Rees Mogg wants May to appoint 1000 new Tory Peers to force Brexit through Since when have Tory Peers and the House of Lords represented 'the People' The thought of Rees-Mogg being the 'people's champion' is so ridiculously 'funny' (ahah) ...

Farage has just agreed that we need Constiutional change to make Referendi binding- and that the UK is NOT, currently, a direct democracy, but a Parliamentary one

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...ruling-9206164

Last edited by Odile; 06.11.2016 at 14:17.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Odile for this useful post:
  #6446  
Old 06.11.2016, 14:51
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Misery-Courtion
Posts: 17,859
Groaned at 300 Times in 232 Posts
Thanked 13,141 Times in 7,532 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

It never has been a direct democracy so nothing new there. Switzerland's probably the only country - at least Western country - that comes close. Not up on how the Eastern countries political systems work - if they work at all.
Reply With Quote
  #6447  
Old 06.11.2016, 17:25
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,572
Groaned at 246 Times in 212 Posts
Thanked 11,578 Times in 6,323 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Its the end of the World!!
Anger as Walkers increases price of crisps by 10% following post-Brexit slump in the pound
Walkers is increasing the price of a bag of crisps by up to 10 per cent - with the slump in the pound following the Brexit vote to blame, the firm has said.

Source

I do not see how they can justify such an increase; they say while the crisps are made from British potatoes, other items - including frying oil, seasoning, and packaging materials - were all imported.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #6448  
Old 06.11.2016, 17:31
eddiejc1's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Derwood, MD USA
Posts: 1,005
Groaned at 22 Times in 20 Posts
Thanked 684 Times in 372 Posts
eddiejc1 has an excellent reputationeddiejc1 has an excellent reputationeddiejc1 has an excellent reputationeddiejc1 has an excellent reputation
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

What doesn't cease to amaze me is that in spite of all the clearly broken promises of the Leave camp, and all the clear economic signs that Brexit will mark hard economic times for the UK, there remains a large number of die-hard Leave voters who are in denial about this.

My take is this---that this ruling will give Parliament a way to get out of the Brexit vote and stay in the EU. If it doesn't, and May manages to invoke Article 50, her Tory government is going to face a hard choice. Will they be willing to strike a new trade deal with the EU at the cost of allowing free movement of people (the true raison d'être for the Brexit vote) or will they decide that keeping out Syrian refugees is more important and cut themselves off completely from Europe?
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank eddiejc1 for this useful post:
  #6449  
Old 06.11.2016, 17:34
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Küsnacht, Switzerland
Posts: 2,103
Groaned at 61 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 5,145 Times in 2,345 Posts
Blueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
I do not see how they can justify such an increase; they say while the crisps are made from British potatoes, other items - including frying oil, seasoning, and packaging materials - were all imported.
That's standard in the food industry I'm afraid. Walkers are owned by Pepsi and Frito-Lay, both American companies, so they may well have decided where the packaging, etc, is sourced from.

I worked for a company that had 'British' in the title, even though it was an Anglo-French concern and later bought out by an American company without any change to the UK company name. Plus, Walkers probaly make crisps for many of the supermarket own brands and are contractually tied to them r.e. wholesale pricing, for a fixed time scale, so they only way they can absorb the extra cost is with their name brand until those contracts are renegotiated.
Reply With Quote
  #6450  
Old 06.11.2016, 17:37
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Küsnacht, Switzerland
Posts: 2,103
Groaned at 61 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 5,145 Times in 2,345 Posts
Blueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
What doesn't cease to amaze me is that in spite of all the clearly broken promises of the Leave camp, and all the clear economic signs that Brexit will mark hard economic times for the UK, there remains a large number of die-hard Leave voters who are in denial about this.
And with Corbyn flip-flopping all over the show, MPs are going to struggle to know what is the best thing to do. Thank god I'm LibDem. No lack of clarity with them.
Reply With Quote
  #6451  
Old 06.11.2016, 19:03
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,572
Groaned at 246 Times in 212 Posts
Thanked 11,578 Times in 6,323 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
That's standard in the food industry I'm afraid. Walkers are owned by Pepsi and Frito-Lay, both American companies, so they may well have decided where the packaging, etc, is sourced from.

I worked for a company that had 'British' in the title, even though it was an Anglo-French concern and later bought out by an American company without any change to the UK company name. Plus, Walkers probaly make crisps for many of the supermarket own brands and are contractually tied to them r.e. wholesale pricing, for a fixed time scale, so they only way they can absorb the extra cost is with their name brand until those contracts are renegotiated.
And Birds Eye just announced a 12% increase in fish fingers pricing on the basis that their suppliers are using US dollar prices!!
The current forecast for 2017 inflation is only 3.5%; this forecast might need some adjustment
Reply With Quote
  #6452  
Old 06.11.2016, 19:10
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 2,056
Groaned at 131 Times in 93 Posts
Thanked 3,741 Times in 1,428 Posts
Mikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
And with Corbyn flip-flopping all over the show, MPs are going to struggle to know what is the best thing to do. Thank god I'm LibDem. No lack of clarity with them.
Except on tuition fees.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Mikers for this useful post:
  #6453  
Old 06.11.2016, 19:29
Dougal's Breakfast's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 16,555
Groaned at 1,063 Times in 822 Posts
Thanked 44,084 Times in 13,632 Posts
Dougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
What doesn't cease to amaze me is that in spite of all the clearly broken promises of the Leave camp, and all the clear economic signs that Brexit will mark hard economic times for the UK, there remains a large number of die-hard Leave voters who are in denial about this.
That's because - regardless of whether Parliament votes for Brexit or not - the EU remains a fundamentally illiberal, anti-democratic, racist and anti-working-person organisation. It beggars belief that anyone outside the political elite would actively choose to remain a part of it.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Dougal's Breakfast for this useful post:
  #6454  
Old 06.11.2016, 19:50
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 9,857
Groaned at 149 Times in 131 Posts
Thanked 13,746 Times in 5,582 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
...As it was sold, the government would abide by the result. ...
Governments lie. And the government that made that promise (Cameron's) doesn't exist any more.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
  #6455  
Old 07.11.2016, 12:08
Cata1yst's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Zugish
Posts: 519
Groaned at 17 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 640 Times in 297 Posts
Cata1yst has a reputation beyond reputeCata1yst has a reputation beyond reputeCata1yst has a reputation beyond reputeCata1yst has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
That's because - regardless of whether Parliament votes for Brexit or not - the EU remains a fundamentally illiberal, anti-democratic, racist and anti-working-person organisation. It beggars belief that anyone outside the political elite would actively choose to remain a part of it.
Hotel California - The Eagles, seems appropriate

You can check-out any time you like,
But you can never leave! "
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Cata1yst for this useful post:
  #6456  
Old 07.11.2016, 12:44
baboon's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Rheintal
Posts: 3,011
Groaned at 95 Times in 84 Posts
Thanked 4,060 Times in 1,974 Posts
baboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
That's because - regardless of whether Parliament votes for Brexit or not - the EU remains a fundamentally illiberal, anti-democratic, racist and anti-working-person organisation. It beggars belief that anyone outside the political elite would actively choose to remain a part of it.
So completely unlike the UK with its very illiberal government working very much in the interests of the rich elite, an upper house with leglislative powers that is wholly undemocratic, where racism/xenophobia was the main reason for 48% of the population voting for Brexit and whose nationals are subjects instead of citizens?

At least those of the the EU governing bodies that are appointed are put there by democratically elected governments and not just because they happened to be born on the right side of the blanket.
Reply With Quote
  #6457  
Old 07.11.2016, 13:05
me.anon's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: thun
Posts: 1,634
Groaned at 28 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 2,030 Times in 982 Posts
me.anon has a reputation beyond reputeme.anon has a reputation beyond reputeme.anon has a reputation beyond reputeme.anon has a reputation beyond reputeme.anon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

I've read this but agree fully with the point of view expressed in the tabloid newspapers which is fundamentally about flaws in the English legal system which has led to judges making inappropriate judgements on issues of importance by failing to consider the political impact of their decisions.

This stems from an archaic system which has artificially split the function of government across the areas of executive, legislature and judiciary and reducing the role of the monarch to a mere figurehead. This results in all sorts of inefficiencies which hamper the daily business of government, adding all sorts of impediments to solving problems and the general improvement of the lot of the people. The prime minister cannot even embark on the right course of action without having to consider a lot of tiresome procedures and processes which bring all sorts of unpredictable barriers and delays along the way, inhibiting progress.
Trial by jury is, incidentally, another of those legal relics of the past which adds an unpredictable element to a trial with the potential to result in the wrong judgement.

England is a parliamentary democracy which means that whereas the "will of the people" is not paramount, it is extremely important. That is, extremely important at election time. That is why election time has a sort of magical character where there is talk of the benefits which are to be bestowed on people of all walks of life: higher pensions, increased coal allowances, lower pension age, shorter working week for the same pay, more money for the health service, less foreigners and other undesirables, more markets for our goods and services, less competition from abroad etc. etc.
After that is all over, the "will of the people" still has an important function, namely as a pretext for any chosen course of action by those who have succeeded in their primary goal of navigating through the election process and obtaining a position of power at the end. That is, of course, as long as those courses of action are not sabotaged by an interfering judiciary or clumsy legislature.

Removing the House of Lords as the final arbiter and last stage of the legal appeals process, and replacing it with the Supreme Court was an important first step in addressing these inefficiencies and delays in the due process of government. The next important step would be to run the Supreme Court out of Downing Street and expand its role to monitoring the performance of courts and judges, ensuring that budgets are upheld (including the remuneration of judges). This new role would naturally also extend to running a help desk for judges seeking clarification of the likely political impact of any judgements they are about to make and to provide interpretations of ambiguous legal formulations where the legislation may not have accurately reflected the will of parliament. Included in the function of the Supreme Court Help Desk would be to provide information packs to selected friendly media and press outlets, guiding them in the understanding of unfolding cases, so these can correctly present how the "will of the people" is being served.

I fully understand the frustration that Theresa May is suffering in her implementation of her BREXIT plans. She would (in more enlightened times) have been able to follow the example of Henry the VIII of England in his Exit from the Catholic Church with, in the the face of all that tiresome and systematic resistance, the simple expedient of an axe and a chopping block.
__________________
If you have difficulties with a post which contains a link to a site in one of the Swiss languages, use Google Translate or your own favourite translating browser.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank me.anon for this useful post:
  #6458  
Old 07.11.2016, 13:45
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,762
Groaned at 499 Times in 305 Posts
Thanked 7,914 Times in 3,106 Posts
Loz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Simple solution in this case, assuming the appeal isn't successful:

Have the MPs vote for Brexit according to what their constituents voted for (this information is available).
Implement constitutional change asap to make all future referendums binding.

Problem solved.
Reply With Quote
  #6459  
Old 07.11.2016, 14:38
baboon's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Rheintal
Posts: 3,011
Groaned at 95 Times in 84 Posts
Thanked 4,060 Times in 1,974 Posts
baboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
....The next important step would be to run the Supreme Court out of Downing Street and expand its role to monitoring the performance of courts and judges, ensuring that budgets are upheld (including the remuneration of judges). This new role would naturally also extend to running a help desk for judges seeking clarification of the likely political impact of any judgements they are about to make and to provide interpretations of ambiguous legal formulations where the legislation may not have accurately reflected the will of parliament. Included in the function of the Supreme Court Help Desk would be to provide information packs to selected friendly media and press outlets, guiding them in the understanding of unfolding cases, so these can correctly present how the "will of the people" is being served

I fully understand the frustration that Theresa May is suffering in her implementation of her BREXIT plans. She would (in more enlightened times) have been able to follow the example of Henry the VIII of England in his Exit from the Catholic Church with, in the the face of all that tiresome and systematic resistance, the simple expedient of an axe and a chopping block. .....
I sincerely hope forgetting to include the winking smilie was an oversight...there's those on here that might think you mean it....


Last edited by baboon; 07.11.2016 at 15:05.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank baboon for this useful post:
  #6460  
Old 07.11.2016, 14:55
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 5,149
Groaned at 160 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,565 Times in 3,370 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Quote:
View Post
I've read this but agree fully with the point of view expressed in the tabloid newspapers which is fundamentally about flaws in the English legal system which has led to judges making inappropriate judgements on issues of importance by failing to consider the political impact of their decisions.
That's exactly not what the judicial arm is to do. It's up to parliament to consider consequences and political impact in their legislating.
Quote:
View Post
England is a parliamentary democracy which means that whereas the "will of the people" is not paramount, it is extremely important.
Except it isn't.

The UK, which is short for United Kingdom, is a constitutional monarchy with democratic elements.

Quote:
View Post
Simple solution in this case, assuming the appeal isn't successful:

Have the MPs vote for Brexit according to what their constituents voted for (this information is available).
Implement constitutional change asap to make all future referendums binding.

Problem solved.
That would probably mean abolishing all political privileges that come with nobility, including getting rid of royalty as a political entity and of the House of Lords as it exists (perhaps changing it into some sort of 2nd chamber). In short, convert the UK into a democracy, including changing its name as it would no longer be a kingdom. You won't get that on short notice, if at all.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Latest Referendum, what will be consequences for EU (C permit and B permit) holders? expat2014 Permits/visas/government 3 11.02.2014 08:59
Importing vehicles and the VAT consequences in Switzerland from France BEFO Finance/banking/taxation 6 07.08.2013 15:11
The (Available in CH) Dog Food Review Thread meloncollie Pet corner 44 08.05.2012 20:15
Common-law marriage and consequences in CH Mishto Family matters/health 9 01.10.2011 22:03
Something for the Brits: M&S in CH mark Daily life 11 15.11.2007 12:18


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 18:32.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0