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View Poll Results: What would you personally prefer to happen?
I want the UK to stay in an ever-closer union 49 23.11%
I want the UK to stay in a loosely connected EU 68 32.08%
I want the UK out because the EU is bad for the UK 22 10.38%
I want the UK out because the EU is a bad thing 23 10.85%
I want the UK out because this would be good for the rest of us 17 8.02%
I don't really care 33 15.57%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

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  #7161  
Old 13.12.2016, 13:34
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Jolyon Maugham and Gina Miller going through the Irish courts now after Miller branded last weeks Commons vote as *irrelevant". At least it's good to know this has absolutely nothing to do with due process and is entirely about trying to block Brexit.
Do you have a source for "Gina Miller going through the Irish court".
She is the one driving the UK case?
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  #7162  
Old 13.12.2016, 14:17
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Do you have a source for "Gina Miller going through the Irish court".
She is the one driving the UK case?
The only thing I can see is this in the hatemail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ck-Brexit.html

Which if you actually read it has nothing to do with Gina Miller
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  #7163  
Old 13.12.2016, 14:25
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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The only thing I can see is this in the hatemail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ck-Brexit.html

Which if you actually read it has nothing to do with Gina Miller
Thanks, it also has not much to do with "defy the will of the people" as in the headline.
According to the article it is about "can the notification under Article 50 can be revoked"
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  #7164  
Old 13.12.2016, 14:42
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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No. They really would destroy a nation for their principles. We've just gone through about 30 years of Realpolitik, so you're probably not that familiar with quite how bat-s**t crazy the proponents of Idealpolitik are.
You're definitely right in assuming that I'm completely unfamiliar with that kind of zealotism.
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I think they were completely surprised and have seen a successful exit from the EU, so far down the line that Brexit came as a complete shock.
[..]
They'll strong-arm it through Parliament, of course. The present appeal is in the hope they don't have to go through all that hassle, but if they have to they will and while some will rebel, many will remember what happened to Zac Goldsmith when he voted against his constituency, on the subject.
I think roughly the same.

Nonetheless I don't understand why May isn't presenting a bill anyway because, even if the UK courts rule that no bill is necessary and that's the route taken, this is virtually guaranteed to be challenged as well - it takes only one out of 500 millions. This would present even more of a delay.

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Jolyon Maugham and Gina Miller going through the Irish courts now after Miller branded last weeks Commons vote as *irrelevant". At least it's good to know this has absolutely nothing to do with due process and is entirely about trying to block Brexit.
The parliamentary vote was on a non-binding parliamentary motion whereas the court ruling (which has been challenged) calls for a bill. Thus it is indeed irrelevant WRT to her case.
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  #7165  
Old 13.12.2016, 16:59
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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So? If how your constituency voted is enough to decide a vote then with 60% of constituencies having voted leave, your point isn't much of a point, is it?
Just to expand on this, the EU referendum results were announced by local authority NOT Westminster constituencies! To be totally honest, I wasn't aware of the full magnitude of this until checking some results a few weeks ago, and finding that both my home town and the area where my vote was recorded, are affected by this anomaly.

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There’s a problem with this claim. The results of the referendum were not announced according to Westminster constituencies, but by local authority area. There is no referendum result for Hornsey and Wood Green.There is a referendum result for the London Borough of Haringey, which contains Hornsey and Wood Green — but then Haringey also contains the constituency of Tottenham. The 75% figure therefore represents some unknown admixture of purely notional results for these two separate constituencies.
https://medium.com/@chrishanretty/th...0e1#.grvtwp24r

MP's have a serious problem here. How do they know how to vote in line with their constituents when the data isn't there?

The constituency where my vote was registered is Windsor whose MP is Adam Afriyie. Afriyie is Conservative and was part of the Leave campaign. The referendum result was declared as Royal Borough of Windsor and Maidenhead, thereby including Theresa May's constituency. The result was 53.9% Remain. If those two MPs vote in line with their constituents...well I think we can all see the issue here.
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  #7166  
Old 13.12.2016, 17:02
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Just a couple of links for anyone who wants to check if their hometown local authority accurately represents their Westminster constituency, please check the maps here...

EU Referendum Result map

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36616028

2015 General Election result map

http://www.bbc.com/news/election-2015-32624405
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  #7167  
Old 13.12.2016, 17:44
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Lol.
There were many reasons why people lied in polls re Brexit and also Trump (who btw seems to have 3 million votes less than Clinton at the latest count... so polls were possible right there)...

But yes-

However, if you look at the results of this poll, they are so massively convincing so difficult to dismiss:

50% questionned are not prepared to be 1 penny worse off due to Brexit.

Out of those,

59% in the North,
62% of labour leave voters
46% of Tory leave voters
and even
39% of UKIP (leave!) voters

And only 1 in 10 of Brexiters are prepared to lose £100 a month for the cause.

There are going to be an awful lot of people not happy, not happy at all- as prices for essential go up, Sterling continues to drop, meaning higher prices again, and good bye to holidays abroad, job losses in many sectors, work conditions deteriorate and the NHS which was supposed to be miraculously saved by blatant lies- crashes in a winter of discontent.
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  #7168  
Old 13.12.2016, 18:23
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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There were many reasons why people lied in polls re Brexit and also Trump (who btw seems to have 3 million votes less than Clinton at the latest count... so polls were possible right there)...

But yes-

However, if you look at the results of this poll, they are so massively convincing so difficult to dismiss:

50% questionned are not prepared to be 1 penny worse off due to Brexit.

Out of those,

59% in the North,
62% of labour leave voters
46% of Tory leave voters
and even
39% of UKIP (leave!) voters

And only 1 in 10 of Brexiters are prepared to lose £100 a month for the cause.

There are going to be an awful lot of people not happy, not happy at all- as prices for essential go up, Sterling continues to drop, meaning higher prices again, and good bye to holidays abroad, job losses in many sectors, work conditions deteriorate and the NHS which was supposed to be miraculously saved by blatant lies- crashes in a winter of discontent.
They don't have a choice to be better off or worse off as a result, the poll is ridiculous.
Food prices should be lower after BREXIT, even with the plunge in the £ inflation is only running at 1.2%.
It's home owners for whom we will need to get the violins out for in a couple of years time , house prices will fall which must be good news as they are way too high v earnings.
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  #7169  
Old 13.12.2016, 19:25
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Oh the irony when the

DAILY MAIL

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/new...it-survey.html

When the *it hits the fan, there will be more than X on paper- that is for certain. It's not as if some of us are not old enough to remember what a winter of discontent feels like ... hey

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  #7170  
Old 13.12.2016, 19:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Polls are meaningless. The only thing that matters is the cross in the square on the ballot paper.

I'd have thought we'd have all learnt that by now.
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Just opened a "trial" bottle of half price Cabernet Sauvignon from Denner & sitting comfortably before the fire so now pass the
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  #7171  
Old 13.12.2016, 22:09
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Just opened a "trial" bottle of half price Cabernet Sauvignon from Denner & sitting comfortably before the fire so now pass the
You think I'm going to click on a link like that?
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  #7172  
Old 14.12.2016, 02:14
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Food prices should be lower after BREXIT, even with the plunge in the £ inflation is only running at 1.2%.
Over half of the UK food requirements is sourced abroad and of that produced in the U.K. the labor element is highly dependent on cheap foreign labor. So I'd say people's concerns about cost and variety of food available are valid.
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Old 14.12.2016, 08:47
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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You think I'm going to click on a link like that?
Given you have a known Hatemail reading history - yes
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  #7174  
Old 14.12.2016, 08:49
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Given you have a known Hatemail reading history - yes
I haven't read the Mail for a long time now. Every click counts!
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  #7175  
Old 14.12.2016, 11:46
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

What's becoming increasingly clear in this BREXIT saga is that the will of the people was not accurately reflected in the voting patterns, leaving a result which actually damages the interests of the people it was intended to serve, and serving instead the malign objectives of other states. Those who have watched the American elections and its aftermath will already be informed as to how agents of the Russian state propelled a once hopeless candidate through the election procedure, against all odds, securing him the current position of president elect.
So, who benefits from the damage that the BREXIT is inflicting on Britain itself and Europe as a whole? Clearly again the Russians. Not only have they overshadowed the American elections, their nefarious hacking activities have also swung the BREXIT vote in their favour. So powerful, infact was this meddling in the BREXIT vote, although so cunningly subtle that the evidence is yet to be manufactured, that even Obamas attempt to influence the outcome by making a special visit to the UK and weighing in on the side of Remainers had no beneficial effect.
Let's hope that once the electoral college undo the work of the Russian secret service in attempting to install their man in the White House, that attention is then turned to the obvious irregularities in the BREXIT vote, correcting it so that it more accurately reflects the true will of the British people.
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Old 14.12.2016, 11:48
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Over half of the UK food requirements is sourced abroad and of that produced in the U.K. the labor element is highly dependent on cheap foreign labor. So I'd say people's concerns about cost and variety of food available are valid.
The UK announced some time ago that to make an easy transition to their own entry into the WTO they would use the the EU agreed WTO tariffs; these average 18% for imported food (some are over 75%! ).
So in future the UK would have to apply these tariffs also to food imports from the EU, Note; the highest tariffs apply to EU produced food that the EU wanted to protect from outside competition.
Full tariff table here.
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  #7177  
Old 14.12.2016, 12:34
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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What's becoming increasingly clear in this BREXIT saga is that the will of the people was not accurately reflected in the voting patterns, leaving a result which actually damages the interests of the people it was intended to serve, and serving instead the malign objectives of other states.
What exactly was the accurate will of the people then? I ask, because the British people were asked 'do you want the UK to leave the EU?' and they responded 'yes'.

Now, they may have really meant to have voted to "do you want to limit EU immigration to the UK, but suffer no negative consequences?" but ultimately they didn't and they exercised their right to vote without seemingly having a clue what they were doing and now perhaps regret their decision, now they handed over the reigns to the likes of Farage and Davis, but that's what they did and the cake and eat it option that perhaps they really wanted was never on the table.

Sorry, that's democracy. Your right, your mess.
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Those who have watched the American elections and its aftermath will already be informed as to how agents of the Russian state propelled a once hopeless candidate through the election procedure, against all odds, securing him the current position of president elect.
It's debatable the Russians did anything (forgive me for not blindly taking the word of the same clowns who assured us Iraq had WMD). It's even more debatable that anything they may have done had any real impact and last but not least the whole Russian conspiracy theory sounds like denial from HRC supporters who simply don't want to admit that they ran a bad candidate. A month ago, these same theorists were blaming women voters for having betrayed their own gender.

Let's face it; Trump was a joke candidate. With scandals popping out of every direction and clearly not qualified to hold office. Even his 'own' party had difficulty supporting him. So, the Russians leaked out some stuff about Hillary's emails and this cost her the election, while Donald 'grab them by the pussy' Trump was able to shrug off his various scandals and win?

Trump should never have even gotten close to winning, let alone actually doing so. That he did is not down to the Russians and wallowing in this conspiracy does nothing other than ensure that those who supported Clinton will end up learning nothing from it all and will end up losing again next time.

As for the Russians being involved in Brexit too - first I've heard of it. Hold on while I reach for my tin-foil-hat.

Last edited by Aeneas; 14.12.2016 at 14:34.
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  #7178  
Old 14.12.2016, 14:41
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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What exactly was the accurate will of the people then? I ask, because the British people were asked 'do you want the UK to leave the EU?' and they responded 'yes'.

Now, they may have really meant to have voted to "do you want to limit EU immigration to the UK, but suffer no negative consequences?" but ultimately they didn't and they exercised their right to vote without having a clue what they were doing and now perhaps regret their decision and how they handed over the reigns to the likes of Farage and Davis, but that's what they did and the cake and eat it option that perhaps they really wanted was never on the table.

Sorry, that's democracy. Your right, your mess.

It's debatable the Russians did anything (forgive me for not blindly taking the word of the same clowns who assured us Iraq had WMD). It's even more debatable that anything they may have done had any real impact and last but not least the whole Russian conspiracy theory sounds like denial from HRC supporters who simply don't want to admit that they ran a bad candidate. A month ago, these same theorists were blaming women voters for having betrayed their own gender.

Let's face it; Trump was a joke candidate. With scandals popping out of every direction and clearly not qualified to hold office. Even his 'own' party had difficulty supporting him. So, the Russians leaked out some stuff about Hillary's emails and this cost her the election, while Donald 'grab them by the pussy' Trump was able to shrug off his various scandals win?

Trump should never have even gotten close to winning, let alone actually doing so. That he did is not down to the Russians and wallowing in this conspiracy does nothing other than ensure that those who supported Clinton will end up learning nothing and will lose again next time too.

As for the Russians being involved in Brexit too - first I've heard of it. Hold on while I reach for my tin-foil-hat.
"the word of the same clowns who assured us Iraq had WMD" I did not find this childish statement to be credible when Trump made it and repeating it does not make it more credible.
The events of 14 years ago have little relevance to today. Anyway they would not be the "same clowns"; they will have been moved on or out years ago and now the CIA reports to the Director of National Intelligence not direct to the President.
CIA has over 20,000 employees so labelling them all with the Iraq failure is not realistic.

The Information Operations Center (IOC) that deals with cyber operations is not connected to the Directorate of Analysis that has an office dedicated to Iraq.

Finally let us not forget Saddam himself claimed he had WMDs, if he had allowed UN inspections he would likely still be around?
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Old 14.12.2016, 15:05
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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"the word of the same clowns who assured us Iraq had WMD" I did not find this childish statement to be credible when Trump made it and repeating it does not make it more credible.
So, why is that a childish statement, outside of the fact you disagree with it?
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The events of 14 years ago have little relevance to today.
What? There's a statute of limitations on facts?

Look, it suits you to accept the CIA on this occasion because what they're claiming suits your agenda. I get that. I'm a fair bit more cynical about civil servants, their reliability and motivations. Just as I was with the FBI's intervention during the campaign, or was that a bad call for you?

Anyhow, you never got past my criticism of the CIA in your response. Not much I can do with that. As I said, for me blaming the Russians appears simply to be a way to avoid any self criticism on the part of the HRC supporters, because what ultimately damaged her more had nothing to do with email.
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Anyway they would not be the "same clowns"; they will have been moved on or out years ago and now the CIA reports to the Director of National Intelligence not direct to the President.
And replaced by...
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CIA has over 20,000 employees so labelling them all with the Iraq failure is not realistic.
I'm sure it didn't take all 20,000 of them to conclude that Saddam had WMD.
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Finally let us not forget Saddam himself claimed he had WMDs
Let's hope that's not where the CIA got their intelligence on the subject.
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if he had allowed UN inspections he would likely still be around?
Quite possibly. Are you suggesting regime change was justified?
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Old 14.12.2016, 15:43
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

I can see that the pound has been rallying slightly over the last week or so, but at 1.30 to the CHF it's still a long way down. But incredibly, Tescos are now offering 100 Sultanas in exchange for 50 Raisins.

Their currant exchange rate is just nuts!
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